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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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21 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I’m just going to operate under the assumption that anyone who willing compares Allen’s development to Dwayne’s isn’t as familiar with Allen as they think. 
 

Guys, i know he plays for the Bills so he’s not on tv a ton. I know he doesn’t “look” like a runner to some of you guys (and I’ll leave it at that) but the guy can move and that is a huge part of his game and is probably the only thing that saved him in his first few years. He is not comparable at all to Dwayne. A more apt comparison to Dwayne in terms of skill set is maybe Jameis or Flacco or someone like that. 

Jameis throws TDs up but more garbage for sure and Flacco did win a Super Bowl. 

But he needs 18-20 games if he's progressing.  If he's not making any progress then I'll trust a coaching decision that pulls him before that np.

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1 hour ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

That may be true statistically, but at least he can throw an accurate pass beyond 10 years one out of every three attempts. John Beck's style of play resulted in Roy Helu getting a single game reception record hahahaha

 

(I'm obviously not saying that Haskins has been remotely good)

I liked Roy Helu.  We actually have had some talented players; we just haven't had talented coaches/FO.

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Curious how Haskins responds to basically an ultimatum given by the team, according to reports.

Both on and off the field.

Does he spend more time in the film room ? Does he spend more time working on fundamental mechanics and concepts ?

 

Interestingly, Rypien isn't the only UDFA off to a good career start.

Nick Mullens also impressing in SF. But he doesn't seem like a fluke, as he's done this in 2018. too

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8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Jameis throws TDs up but more garbage for sure and Flacco did win a Super Bowl. 

But he needs 18-20 games if he's progressing.  If he's not making any progress then I'll trust a coaching decision that pulls him before that np.


interestingly Jameis is likely available in 2021, I wondered about Rivera’s view on him. Matched up quite a bit in CAR, aside from one horror showing it was fairly breakeven between Jameis at the Bucs and Ron’s team. It was stated in the media that there was no chance we were picking him up in 2020, wonder if that would still be the case if we chose to move on from Haskins.

 

Hopefully Haskins can put the dilemma to bed this season.

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16 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:


The other players deserve a chance to win the division. There is no entitlement in the NFL. He can sit and watch. If we are eliminated from playoff contention then you can put him back in to see if there has been any improvement as you evaluate for 2021.

 

Exactly.  Starting jobs are supposed to be earned, while QBs get more leeway that applies to them as well. It's simply not fair to the other starters who have earned their starting jobs.  

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From Keim

 

 

 

 

 

Statistically, Haskins ranks last in total QBR (28.4 on a 100-point scale). When it comes to completion percentage, he's last on air throws traveling 10 or more yards (9-for-37) as well as on third-down throws (41.4), according to ESPN Stats & Information research. He has fared better in the red zone, where he's tied for fifth in completion percentage (9-for-12; three touchdowns). He's 31st in overall completion percentage.

Turner said he told Haskins not to be afraid to throw more interceptions, but stressed that there were other plays Haskins didn't make Sunday that he must in the future.

 

"You've got to take advantage when you get good looks in this league. Then he just can't put the ball in harm's way," Turner said.

Washington liked how Haskins approached the offseason, becoming a leader and getting elected captain.

"I'm still young. I can't just sit here and act like I arrived, or I made it. I mean, I made it but there's a long way to go," Haskins said. "I want to be a Hall of Fame quarterback one day. That's not going to be easy. I want it to be hard, hard as hell, just so I can show that I can do it and prove to myself and to my teammates that they believe and trust in me."

 

Haskins said a number of teammates gave him encouraging words at the end of Sunday's 34-20 loss in Cleveland. The QB had a long talk with Rivera on Monday, and his reaction to that meeting highlighted growth from a year ago. Last season after bad or tough games, Haskins would hold midweek news conferences, and following one loss he spoke so softly he was hard to hear even from five feet away.

Haskins said he challenged himself in the meeting with Rivera.

 

"I know I can be better. I have to be better," Haskins said. "In order for that to happen, I have to put the work in. Everybody can sit there and feel sorry for yourself or have a pity party or blame other external factors for why it is what it is."

Washington's offensive skill players are mostly young and unproven, outside of receiver Terry McLaurin. The line includes two starters on the left side -- tackle Geron Christian and guard Wes Martin -- who now have a combined 13 starts.

 

"Their talent stinks," ESPN NFL analyst Dan Orlovsky said. "It's bad. McLaurin is really the only big-time player that [Haskins] has."

But Washington wants Haskins to show more awareness in the pocket, having watched him move into too many sacks. They want him to be more consistent with his mechanics and recognize there are too many throws that are all arm -- or where his feet don't match up with his eyes, leading to errant throws.

"When [the pocket] is clean, he has to be consistent," Turner said. "If he can throw on balance more, that'll lead to more accuracy. But there are some times where you can't. Everyone sees these guys around the league. You've still got to play."

 

Said Orlovsky: "You got to try and build really good habits for a long career. You can use this time when it's not good around you to build really, really good habits. And what I want to see Dwayne get better at -- because right now it's not good enough -- is he's not Lamar [Jackson or] Patrick [Mahomes], where his feet can be all over the place and he can make these crazy throws. That's just not his game."

The interceptions in Week 3 might have stemmed from Haskins pressing to make a play. He stared down receivers, which he realized he did after watching the game film. Rivera said it's a matter of slowing his reads down.

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I don't think the important question is whether or not Haskins should be starting.  What's important is whether or not WFT will be building around Haskins for the future or going in a different direction.  Haskins may never be a good quarterback, but he surely will not excel with the current offensive talent.  If WFT decides that Haskins is the future, then veteran help is needed right away on the OL and he needs a good second receiver.  And a running back who excels in pass blocking.  And a tight end that can catch would be nice.

 

I think RR is a good coach.  Good coaches can evaluate players in many different ways - Haskins doesn't need to start in order to be evaluated properly and sitting him would not be the end of his career in DC.   It might be good for him.

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Another option for him could be to go the route of one of his OSU predecessors, T-Peazy aka Terrelle Pryor, and switch positions. Will just need to put in the work to improve his foot-speed a little. But that’s still less work than what he needs on his QB mechanics..

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One day til game day. Luckily for Haskins the bar is set so low that he doesn't have to win or even play winning football. He just has to show he can complete passes downfield and not throw the game away with turnovers. That's it, nothing more nothing less. If he can show couple passes that an undrafted qb like Rypien can make, he'll continue playing. It sucks to have such low expectations of your qb but it is what it is. 

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I don't understand the question of whether the Team should build around Haskins.  When you have one offensive star (McLaurin) and some young guys who may develop (OL included), the question isn't whether they should build around Haskins -- they need to build, period.  That said, you know, Team could put Haskins on the PS.  Nah.

 

One question I do have is does the coaching staff gain any insight or whatever by attempting to "coach up" Haskins?

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10 hours ago, skinbuck said:

Another option for him could be to go the route of one of his OSU predecessors, T-Peazy aka Terrelle Pryor, and switch positions. Will just need to put in the work to improve his foot-speed a little. But that’s still less work than what he needs on his QB mechanics..

You do realize he runs a 5.0 second 40. Whats he gonna switch too??

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11 hours ago, skinbuck said:

Another option for him could be to go the route of one of his OSU predecessors, T-Peazy aka Terrelle Pryor, and switch positions. Will just need to put in the work to improve his foot-speed a little. But that’s still less work than what he needs on his QB mechanics..

🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️
 

shameful post 

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(I've been working on this post for 3 days, keep getting distracted with work and kids.  So it's a little late to the thoughts flying around a couple days ago.  But here we are.)

 

A few thoughts: @SoCalSkins, actually bring up a very valid point (albeit in a somewhat roundabout way) that there isn't a history of drop back QBs with bad accuracy "figuring it out."  Typically, if you're a drop back QB with accuracy issues, those linger.  The only real example I can think of where a drop back QB has done a 180 is Drew Brees.  People forget how absolutely horrid he was when he got into the league.  He had the double effect of making bad decisions and being inaccurate. He was so bad, not only was he benched, but the Chargers then spent a top 5 pick on Rivers to replace him.  The next year, it clicked for Brees, he played extremely well for the Chargers, then went on to become a HOFer with the Saints.  

 

A lot of young, drop back QBs struggle initially, but what they struggle with most is staring down receivers and making bad reads, reading defenses and the speed of the game.  If a QB has to wait to see a receiver open in the NFL, by the time the ball gets there, the receiver is covered.  They can't get by with what they did in college because, for the most part, in college their arm strength could make up for a lot of other sins.  That's just not true in the NFL. 


Parcells listed a number of traits that a QB must have.  Haskins has some of them, and not others.  I think what a lot of us in @KDawg's group #3 "raised eyebrows" group see (people who want to see more but are increasingly skeptical this movie is going to end well) is there are some things Haskins does ok and can build on, and we want to see improvement on the things he doesn't do well.  If you see improvement in the things he's not doing well, then that's something to build on.  If you don't, he's cooked like a thanksgiving turkey. 

 

The list, from memory, Parcells laid out was:

- Toughness.  I think Haskins has toughness.  

- Leadership.  No idea.  Seems to be improving, based on comments from players and Rivera.  I'd give this a "trending up" based on comments from teammates and coaches, but nobody knows what goes on behind the closed doors in Ashburn.  

- Throw with anticipation.  I think he does this to the level of a QB with 10 NFL starts.  He's better at it than some.  Put another way, I don't feel, and nor do people who I listen to who study film, that he holds the ball waiting for guys to get open. 

- Accuracy. You've got to be able to hit what you're throwing at.  This is VERY BAD.  This is due to extremely poor mechanics. His feet, body and arm are all going in different directions too often, he throws from an open stance and doesn't use good footwork.  Question: can he fix the mechanics and improve accuracy?  Not sure.  Personally, I think he might be able to, but I don't think he will be able to in-season.  He would have benefited from being with Zampese and Turner and running 1000 footwork drills within the concept of the offense over the off-season.  But he didn't get that because of COVID. 

- Pocket Awareness.  I think this is poor.  He often just rolls right into pressure, instead of stepping one step to his left or right to avoid pressure, reset and throw, he panics, bails, and flails around.  This is something which you do need reps to get better at.  So, we'll see.   

 

And Haskins has all the physical tools.  He's got "ok" movement skills, and he's got a quick release and a rocket arm.  

 

So, the reason I don't think the book is completely written is because I think he's owed the opportunity to fix the mechanics and accuracy based on the coaching and the feedback.  Put another way, I run a practice in a consulting company.  If I have a talented employee who's messing up all over the place in one area, but shows some promise in other areas, I'm at least going to try and coach them on what they're doing wrong for some period of time and give them an opportunity to grow before I move on from them. If they don't show they can develop quickly, and show progress, you have to move to the next person.  Just recently, I had a guy who worked directly for me on a project who was messing up everywhere.  It was a big mess, and he had a little arrogance to him.  But I sat him down, coached him, and over the course of the last 6 months, it's clicked, and he's turned into a star performer. Did I know that was going to happen? No, and frankly I would have bet against it.  But he was receptive to the coaching, and that was a good sign. I'm glad I didn't give up on him too early.

 

The questions Ron is going to have to answer are, is he seeing the type of improvement he needs to see, at the rate he needs to see it, and is Haskins taking the coaching and able to apply it, or is he resistant to it? Depending on the answer to those questions, that's how much longer you can play Haskins.  

 

And FWIW, I don't subscribe to the point of view if you bench Haskins this year you're done with him.  Again, it's the Brees example.  The Chargers came back to him, and he was outstanding.  So it CAN happen under the right circumstances.  If he's not getting it now, and he has to be benched, there's no reason not to give him more coaching, you just can't rely on him.  I think Ron knows that. 

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The problem is we haven't seen very much improvement, outside of about a game and a half last year--which, admittedly I was very high on. Maybe he needs to sit, work on mechanics. Who knows. I feel like he's going to get decimated today.

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3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The questions Ron is going to have to answer are, is he seeing the type of improvement he needs to see, at the rate he needs to see it, and is Haskins taking the coaching and able to apply it, or is he resistant to it? Depending on the answer to those questions, that's how much longer you can play Haskins.  

 

And FWIW, I don't subscribe to the point of view if you bench Haskins this year you're done with him.  Again, it's the Brees example.  The Chargers came back to him, and he was outstanding.  So it CAN happen under the right circumstances.  If he's not getting it now, and he has to be benched, there's no reason not to give him more coaching, you just can't rely on him.  I think Ron knows that. 

 

Accuracy is a talent and arguably the key talent.   Just my layman's take, I am obviously no expert but heck I am sticking to my opinion until to my eyes things change. 😀 Haskins accuracy in college IMO was mostly 5-15 yards right in front of his eyes (in between the numbers).  He wasn't good typically (with some exceptions) throwing out routes short or long or the deep ball or throwing on the move. I haven't really seen that change at all.  He's more mobile and more mature it seems now but his accuracy is just about exactly the same from two seasons before IMO. 

 

And even if I subscribed a high value to arm strength which I don't -- Haskins has a strong arm but its not special IMO.  Even if I ran with him having an elite arm, he doesn't step into his throws enough to showcase it often enough.  IMO he has the baseball equivalent of a 93 mile per hour fastball, not 97, 98 special and he has no off speed pitch to play it out with finesse.  Ramsey and Campell and RG3 had really strong arms, too.  So I am not hanging my hat on his arm strength, the dude has a nice arm but he isn't a Mahomes or Josh Allen on that front.

 

When Cooley goes over they should stop throwing swing passes so much to the running backs because he doesn't throw them well.  To me its a wow observation because it fits exactly into what I said watching him in training camp, the dude really struggled with throwing basically 5 yard quick routes in the flat past the numbers.  He doesn't throw them where he often hits the runner-WR in stride -- instead its often behind them or right to them.  And that's not a hard pass.  When he has to turn his body which you have to do to throw more horizointally, he tends to struggle adjusting his body and footwork.   

 

What I like about Dwayne is what he does well he does really well -- those slants, shallow crosses, digs, mesh concepts, where the footwork is easier and the play unfolds right in line with his vision.    I think he's a nice guy.  Smart.  And he's competitive as heck.  So I gather Rivera is trying to light a fire on him.  Let's see how he responds?    Can he fix his footwork-accuracy issues?  I got no clue.  My feeling is its hard.  But obviously, I've never tried to fix a QB's footwork and turn it consistent so since I have no feel for it -- I'll just trust Zampese, Turner and Rivera to figure that out one way or an other.  Will see.  I hope he pulls it together because I'd much rather not go fishing again for a QB albeit I suspect we will be. 

 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/294717/what-matters-when-evaluating-qbs-today-not-height-and-arm-strength

 

"A guy has to have a natural instinct on where to go with the ball, and he can place it where he wants to," a quarterbacks coach said. "That is kind of the whole thing."

 

...One NFL executive considered leadership his No. 1 skill for a quarterback. There isn't a be-all, tell-all database for leadership. Wins and losses only tell part of the story. Speaking to coaches and teammates can help, but it's ultimately a projection when you're trying to figure how a 20-something will be able to lead grown men. That executive had decision-making and accuracy second and third on his QB priority list.

 

 

An NFL coach listed functional intelligence, natural decision-making and accuracy as his top three needs when evaluating college quarterbacks. Another had a quarterback's ability to control the game, poise in the pocket and vision atop his list.

 

Arm strength and height weren't necessarily prioritized by the more than a handful of executives, scouts and coaches polled. In fact, one coach was weary of quarterbacks over 6-foot-4. Hand size was viewed by some as simply a compensating factor for height.

 

Accuracy over arm strength," according to a scout.

To some, this isn't necessarily new. It has nothing to do with spread offenses and consistently shorter throws in today's NFL.

 

"It hasn't changed," a second executive said. "I just think people have been looking at the wrong thing. People are still talking about arm strength in 2019. ... There is no correlation between having a strong arm and being a great quarterback. There is a certain standard you must have, but once you get that, anything after that, it doesn't matter who has the strongest arm in the NFL."

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2546950-bruce-arians-the-nfls-ultimate-quarterback-whisperer

Arians knew his obsession-prone quarterback was upset about something. Arians approached Manning, determined to shift his focus.

"Peyton, your footwork is all messed up," Arians said. "What's wrong with you, man?"

Manning then spent the final 10 minutes of pregame perfecting his footwork, even though Arians believed it had been flawless in his warm-up. But Manning's mind became so locked on taking precise five- and seven-step drops that his anxiety disappeared.

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@Voice_of_Reason You’re wrong about Drew Brees. Brees was 6-1 in his first season as starter. He was on fire then cooled down.  His second season was when he was not as good. Haskins has never shown what Brees did in those 7 games. I watched a number of those games with Brees, he was a far better player if you go back and watch the games I am sure you would agree if you are being objective. Haskins is closer to Heath Shuler than anyone else. 

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Haskins might actually have benefited from the old days where you sit a QB for 2 years.

 

But you can't do that anymore. The way the league is set up now, you need to hit on a young QB so you can get high level play on a rookie contract for 4-5 years and then stack the team around them. You can't waste half that time on developing them.

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11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Haskins might actually have benefited from the old days where you sit a QB for 2 years.

 

But you can't do that anymore. The way the league is set up now, you need to hit on a young QB so you can get high level play on a rookie contract for 4-5 years and then stack the team around them. You can't waste half that time on developing them.


You also wouldn’t draft a QB who played a single year of college ball in the first round in those days. 

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