SoCalSkins Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, wit33 said: Why man? Same answer as yesterday: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said: So you are claiming if a player is a bust you don’t call him a bust from the time he was drafted? That’s the whole point of the bust label. You are gauging the return on investment relative to the draft position. So once a player is labeled a bust it’s effectively retroactive to the moment he was drafted. I absolutely stand by that argument. Data is needed to gauge return on investment. There is no data the second a player is drafted. A bust label by definition cannot be applied with no data. Have you not been watching football long enough to understand the concept of player development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malapropismic Depository Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Lookin at UDFA Rypien perform so well tonight in his first career start, it makes me wonder about skipping past Allen and Smith, and go straight to Steven Montez, to see if we have a gem in this UDFA 😃 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, Berggy9598 said: Data is needed to gauge return on investment. There is no data the second a player is drafted. A bust label by definition cannot be applied with no data. Have you not been watching football long enough to understand the concept of player development? I am not claiming you have enough data to claim a player is a bust when drafted. But once a player is given that label it is retroactive to when he was drafted. I have been watching football religiously since the late 1970s. You can’t cite a QB who has had Haskins accuracy issues without an ability to run effectively who turned it around with the team that drafted him. Moreover, you combine that with his entitlement, refusal to accept criticism and his talk about wanting to be in the Hall of Fame and comparing himself to Brady and Rodgers and you have a recipe for a guaranteed bust. If you need more information to draw that conclusion, that’s up to you. However, It doesn’t change the fact that he is already a bust. You seem to need more information to accept that reality. Which is fine. However, if you want to argue that those who have already drawn that conclusion are wrong, then at a minimum you need to have tangible examples of similarly situated quarterbacks turning it around. Otherwise, it’s mere conjecture and wishful thinking on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Ron isn’t tied to Dwayne. He will give Dwayne his shot but the point where he gets benched is fast approaching. That could be it for Dwayne’s Team career. If the Team plays well under Kyle or Alex; then Dwayne will never start for us again. If they don’t; then Dwayne will get another shot. My gut says we will have a new QB in 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtfskins Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Brett Rypien getting a win slinging the ball. We have a gunslinger who is more athletic in Kyle Allen. Kinda makes you scratch your head. Dwayne is slow and when he tries to escape the pocket he’s a sack lunch, we’ve seen him trip over his own feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 20 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said: I am not claiming you have enough data to claim a player is a bust when drafted. But once a player is given that label it is retroactive to when he was drafted. I have been watching football religiously since the late 1970s. You can’t cite a QB who has had Haskins accuracy issues without an ability to run effectively who turned it around with the team that drafted him. Moreover, you combine that with his entitlement, refusal to accept criticism and his talk about wanting to be in the Hall of Fame and comparing himself to Brady and Rodgers and you have a recipe for a guaranteed bust. If you need more information to draw that conclusion, that’s up to you. However, It doesn’t change the fact that he is already a bust. You seem to need more information to accept that reality. Which is fine. However, if you want to argue that those who have already drawn that conclusion are wrong, then at a minimum you need to have tangible examples of similarly situated quarterbacks turning it around. Otherwise, it’s mere conjecture and wishful thinking on your part. A descriptive term dependent on data cannot be both retroactively assigned and assigned at a time there was no data. A player is a bust according to data. When there is no data, there is no assignment of a descriptive term. Keep swinging if it makes you happy though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Berggy9598 said: A descriptive term dependent on data cannot be both retroactively assigned and assigned at a time there was no data. A player is a bust according to data. When there is no data, there is no assignment of a descriptive term. Keep swinging if it makes you happy though. That’s not the accepted definition of a bust in the NFL. You categorize busts based on when they were drafted and assign it retroactively. You have analysis of biggest busts of each draft once you have data and it is absolutely applied retroactively. That’s standard operating procedure with respect to categorizing NFL drafted players. So thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said: That’s not the accepted definition of a bust in the NFL. You categorize busts based on when they were drafted and assign it retroactively. You have analysis of biggest busts of each draft once you have data and it is absolutely applied retroactively. That’s standard operating procedure with respect to categorizing NFL drafted players. So thanks for playing. You categorize busts when they underperform. Before they underperform, when they were drafted is 100% irrelevant. It is correct to say a player was drafted 3rd overall is a bust because he didn't produce whatever requirements you want to assign relative to what was invested. Until a player falls short of those requirements, it is comically illogical consider the size of the investment, and that's how you end up making the hall of fame of clown takes Your condescending tone is the cherry on the clown pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 On 9/29/2020 at 12:46 PM, SoCalSkins said: After that comment by Ron I doubt Haskins is the QB second half against the Ravens unless of course he lights it up. You can’t make that comment publicly then not pull the trigger. We are at the end of the Haskins era. I'm not ready to proclaim that we are at the end of the Haskins era but Ron made it pretty clear that he owed it to the other players, players who actually earned their starting jobs with their performance, to make a change if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I'm not ready to proclaim that we are at the end of the Haskins era but Ron made it pretty clear that he owed it to the other players, players who actually earned their starting jobs with their performance, to make a change if necessary. Yes. But Haskins leash will still be as long as it can be. It’s important that the team go as far as it can through the season with Haskins as the guy. Why? Give him every chance to show things are clicking Give an ample sample size to the ownership group that he isn’t the guy I truly believe that once you sit him, that’s it for him. So you have to be sure. And that means the decision makers all need to agree. Ties to 1, but, give him as much time as possible to develop chemistry with the receiver group and to understand protections Whether some of us “know” or not (I have to say, you never know anything in football... there are absolutely educated guesses and they can absolutely be truthful... but I’ve been around this game long enough to know that things can change quickly), it’s still in the franchise’s best interest to give him every opportunity to succeed during a down/evaluation/rebuilding year. To be clear, my opinion: He doesn’t have enough of a grasp on line concepts and protections, doesn’t have the poise, and his accuracy is lacking. Because he doesn’t use his legs well, he isn’t buying himself time to develop as a passer. I don’t think he’s going to be the guy here, though I could see him going to a better situation, with a better blueprint, and developing as a good NFL QB over time. The damage here has largely been done, I think. Drafted by ownership, to a lame duck coach, three coaches in a little over a year, young supporting cast, porous OL, his own maturation process, his skill set vs. what this team wants to do... it stacks against him. But, I will say this, too: Until he’s not the guy, it’s not prudent to give up on him either. In real life, as a coach, I wouldn’t give up on a guy that’s on my team. I’m invested and will do my best to help him. Of course, the team matters as a whole, but I’d never just give up on a guy... and I feel the same about Haskins. Whether he starts the whole year or he gets sat, I’d still focus energy on helping him develop his skills... even if he’s not going to be the QB in DC. He’s young... and with young people things tend to click at random times. Give him every chance to figure it out for HIM. Unfortunately, the NFL is a business. And with that comes hard choices as it pertains to young men’s future. Here’s to hoping things click for him in the next few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, KDawg said: Yes. But Haskins leash will still be as long as it can be. It’s important that the team go as far as it can through the season with Haskins as the guy. Why? Give him every chance to show things are clicking Give an ample sample size to the ownership group that he isn’t the guy I truly believe that once you sit him, that’s it for him. So you have to be sure. And that means the decision makers all need to agree. Ties to 1, but, give him as much time as possible to develop chemistry with the receiver group and to understand protections Whether some of us “know” or not (I have to say, you never know anything in football... there are absolutely educated guesses and they can absolutely be truthful... but I’ve been around this game long enough to know that things can change quickly), it’s still in the franchise’s best interest to give him every opportunity to succeed during a down/evaluation/rebuilding year. To be clear, my opinion: He doesn’t have enough of a grasp on line concepts and protections, doesn’t have the poise, and his accuracy is lacking. Because he doesn’t use his legs well, he isn’t buying himself time to develop as a passer. I don’t think he’s going to be the guy here, though I could see him going to a better situation, with a better blueprint, and developing as a good NFL QB over time. The damage here has largely been done, I think. Drafted by ownership, to a lame duck coach, three coaches in a little over a year, young supporting cast, porous OL, his own maturation process, his skill set vs. what this team wants to do... it stacks against him. But, I will say this, too: Until he’s not the guy, it’s not prudent to give up on him either. In real life, as a coach, I wouldn’t give up on a guy that’s on my team. I’m invested and will do my best to help him. Of course, the team matters as a whole, but I’d never just give up on a guy... and I feel the same about Haskins. Whether he starts the whole year or he gets sat, I’d still focus energy on helping him develop his skills... even if he’s not going to be the QB in DC. He’s young... and with young people things tend to click at random times. Give him every chance to figure it out for HIM. Unfortunately, the NFL is a business. And with that comes hard choices as it pertains to young men’s future. Here’s to hoping things click for him in the next few weeks. I'm just pointing out it's clear that the head coach is not going to let this go on much longer. Some posters may want to see him start every game regardless of the performances but it's pretty clear to me that this is not going to happen. The absolute worst thing that can happen Sunday is Dwayne getting a season ending injury. Where would that leave the team and their decision then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, Darrell Green Fan said: I'm just pointing out it's clear that the head coach is not going to let this go on much longer. Some posters may want to see him start every game regardless of the performances but it's pretty clear to me that this is not going to happen. The absolute worst thing that can happen Sunday is Dwayne getting a season ending injury. Where would that leave the team and their decision then? Oh yeah, I know. I just used your post to spring board that thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, KDawg said: Oh yeah, I know. I just used your post to spring board that thought. I'm here for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Whatever was said in that talk with Rivera and in subsequent ones that Haskins has had with Alex Smith — the former starter who has been a confidant over the past year — Haskins appeared to take them seriously. “In all honesty, I know I can be better,” Haskins said Wednesday. “I have to be better for this offense. In order for that to happen, I have to put the work in. Everyone can sit there and feel sorry for yourself or have a pity party or blame other external factors for why it is what it is. But I really preached this offseason being self-aware and understanding of your mistakes and understand how you can progress and get better for yourself.” He said he studied what went wrong Sunday in Cleveland and how he can learn from mistakes such as rushing to make throws or looking too long at his receiver. He sounded like someone who had been pushed by his coaches to understand the importance of improving quickly. “I just want to be better at everything,” Haskins said Wednesday. “I’m still young. I can’t just sit here and act like I arrived or I made it.” Later he added: “I want to be a Hall of Fame quarterback one day. By God, that’s not going to be easy. I want it to be hard, hard as hell, just so I can show that I can do it and prove to myself and to my teammates that they believe and trust in me.” While Rivera has often said he still considers Haskins to be in his rookie season, much the way Cam Newton was in Rivera’s first season as Carolina Panthers coach, he never publicly pushed Newton that year the way he has Haskins. Instead, he gave Newton the job at the start and supported his quarterback despite Newton being intercepted three times in two games and four in another. Newton was a different quarterback, however, a No. 1 overall pick with rare ability. Newton threw for 4,051 yards, ran for another 706 that 2011 season and was named the league’s rookie of the year. Rivera did not have to publicly challenge Newton in the same way. By saying there could be a point when he benches Haskins, Rivera is opening a potentially dangerous door, inviting weekly questions about making a quarterback change. Which is why the phrase “cutoff point” felt less like a deadline and more like a dare. Will Haskins meet this challenge, too? https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/10/01/ron-rivera-dwayne-haskins-cutoff-point/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 18 hours ago, FootballZombie said: My argument is that we have a great recent example of a worse passer (Allen) who has improved his passing ability. I'm totally ignoring his running ability. It does not matter in my argument. You continue to ignore the counter argument of the fact that a big reason why Allen was given multiple seasons to improve his passing accuracy was because he was a dual threat quarterback. Josh Rosen was not given the chance to increase his passing accuracy after 13 starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COWBOY-KILLA- Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 This is one of the reasons I do not like Rivera’s timeout strategy the last two weeks. You are taking invaluable live game reps away from a young man who clearly needs as many as he can get rn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Washington Football Team head coach Ron Rivera met with Dwayne Haskins this week to make clear the young quarterback understands he must show growth on the football field after a poor performance last week in Cleveland. Sources told NBC Sports Washington that during the meeting Rivera explained that while Haskins has a lot of talent and showed significant growth this offseason learning the playbook and in training camp, his play through three games has been lacking. What’s worse, last week’s game in Cleveland showed clear regression and one source explained that cannot continue if Haskins wants to stay on the field. Offensive coaches also sat down with Haskins this week to highlight opportunities to make plays and show missed chances that could lead to better results. While coaches meeting with the quarterback is quite normal, one source explained the tone of the meetings made clear the gravity of the situation: It’s time to play better. ...For all of Haskins maturation this offseason, it’s time for the young quarterback to show it on the field. Or his time on the field might be soon taking a break. https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/ron-rivera-washington-offensive-coaches-met-dwayne-haskins-week-clear-air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Not sure if it was in that article but I read today that Urban Meyer told Ron that Dwayne needed to be pushed to excel. WTF is that? Does that sound like the trait of a franchise QB? I have seen and heard enough and a few good halves or games won't change my opinion. I can't blame fans for being hopeful but to me this is a done deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballZombie Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: You continue to ignore the counter argument of the fact that a big reason why Allen was given multiple seasons to improve his passing accuracy was because he was a dual threat quarterback. Josh Rosen was not given the chance to increase his passing accuracy after 13 starts. My argument has nothing to do with Allen's rushing ability or how much time he had to develop. Its just proof positive that a QB who was a worse passer than Haskins was able to improve his throwing ability. I'm not ignoring those points, they just literally serve no purpose in my argument. Allen could have logged every game in a wheelchair and my argument would be the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, FootballZombie said: My argument has nothing to do with Allen's rushing ability or how much time he had to develop. Its just proof positive that a QB who was a worse passer than Haskins was able to improve his throwing ability. I'm not ignoring those points, they just literally serve no purpose in my argument. Allen could have logged every game in a wheelchair and my argument would be the same You are ignoring it. It has everything to do with his development as a passer. I don’t know how you can’t see that. His legs have him time. They allowed the team to win while allowing him time to learn as a passer. They also open up the pass because teams have to worry about the run. You are trying to isolate throwing ability from total QB ability... and you can’t. You’re trying to use the example of him as a passer but ignoring a big part of the reason he was able to evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Well, I'd say Haskins has been winning off the field, but it's time for him to start winning ON the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballZombie Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 minute ago, KDawg said: You are ignoring it. It has everything to do with his development as a passer. I don’t know how you can’t see that. His legs have him time. They allowed the team to win while allowing him time to learn as a passer. They also open up the pass because teams have to worry about the run. You are trying to isolate throwing ability from total QB ability... and you can’t. You’re trying to use the example of him as a passer but ignoring a big part of the reason he was able to evolve. I am absolutely focusing on throwing ability. I'm not focusing on total QB ability. Allen's passing mechanics have improved. His accuracy has improved. I don't care if he can run, I don't care how long it took. He is a clear example of someone who was very poor at throwing the football showing drastic improvement. That is all. Nothing else matters. Allen's legs play no part in that outside of throwing mechanics. Again we are arguing two different points. I'm not ignoring his rushing ability. It serves absolutely no import to my argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 23 minutes ago, FootballZombie said: Allen could have logged every game in a wheelchair and my argument would be the same Your argument wouldn't exist because the Bills would have given up on him. Hopefully Washington does the same with Haskins if he doesn't improve drastically. Sunk cost at this point, tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballZombie Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: That is what people keep interjecting but that is not what I am arguing. That is a whole other argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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