Next Day Thread: Sam Howell Just Got Sacked Again! (Buffalo Edition)

[WilberMarshall]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd add to that.

 

A.  If his receivers aren't getting open.  And yes its not just a narrative from those who rewatched the games but also stats indicate it.

 

B.  Opposing defenses are bringing pressure with 4 and having 7 in coverage

 

C.  We are to my eyes often protecting with 6 so opposing defenses need less men to cover and can focus easier on Terry and Jahan.

 

So some are hammering Howell for holding on to the ball.  If his receivers aren't open in large part because their opponents can get pressure with just 4 -- that's on the O line not him.  

 

I've said before as for PFF, I like them on some fronts and on some fronts I don't.   Where I like them is their grades of players -- strengths and weaknesses are often revealing to me. 

 

But as far as grading units to me they are hit and miss.  It depends IMO.   And they are hipsters just in general as to blaming QBs on sacks versus the O line.  Ditto as far as putting poor running games almost exclusively on the run blocking.   

 

But even running with PFF and using their own pet theories.  They've had different O lineman with bad games in the first 3.  They like to say its not about the whole unit but a weakness that the opponent can exploit. 

 

They love saying they'd rather have 5 good O lineman, then 1 great, 3 good and one bad one because the bad one sinks the ship.  That's happened ironically in every one of these games according to their own scores.  According them we got pedestrain play in general from the O line except for Cosmi who is above average and Gates who is below average.  But everyone of these games had some bad play from someone. 

 

Also by PFF's own metrics the receivers have been bad.  They put it on them.  But again PFF doesn't factor context in their grades.  I defended PFF at times from their perspective some of their analyists are very aware of this and can explain the context. I've heard them do it.   And even they take their own grades with a grain of salt at times.  For example they've graded Wylie as OK but I've heard one of their anaylist still trash the player. 

 

But look Terry and Dotson don't all of a sudden suck.  If D lines who weren't creating sacks in previous games look like ther 85 Bears against us with 4 man rushes -- and 7 in coverage to drape coverage better around our receivers -- its about all of that converging together.

 

In short the centerpiece of how defenses seem to think they can beat us is bringing pressure with 4 and that's on the O line.  

 

It is mostly on Sam by a lopsided margin. Not only does he hold onto the ball, his pocket awareness still needs a lot of work. I like him but he should help himself or he will be on the list of former Washington QBs. 

 

He has to try to get into a rhythm early by checking down early and often to keep drives alive and get the DBs squatting on routes. It sets up the deep shots downfield. 

What is most infuriating is that the early dump-offs are there and he does not take them.  

 

He has to learn to play situational football. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, WilberMarshall said:

 

It is mostly on Sam by a lopsided margin. Not only does he hold onto the ball, his pocket awareness still needs a lot of work. I like him but he should help himself or he will be on the list of former Washington QBs. 

 

He has to try to get into a rhythm early by checking down early and often to keep drives alive and get the DBs squatting on routes. It sets up the deep shots downfield. 

What is most infuriating is that the early dump-offs are there and he does not take them.  

 

He has to learn to play situational football. 

 

Keim sort of alluded to this point on his podcast and I'll state it more loudly -- when you got a young QB with just one start you don't give him a makeshift, "meh" O line.

 

If we had Kirk or name that veteran QB its a different story.  But we can't expect Sam to handle things like a veteran from the jump.  So for me its on this coaching staff-FO by a lopsided margin.  If they want to bet on a young inexperienced QB set him up for success.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

Interesting compilation, given the discussion of rating OLs. Some wild discrepancies:

[Skinsinparadise]

Jay Gruden isn't the be all and end all.  But he also knows football and is far from a Howell homer so I see him as an objective observer.   From his watching of that game he again put it mostly on protection and receivers struggiling to get open.  If the receivers aren't open, he's going to hold on to the ball until they get open.  But he did put the picks on Howell, bad decisions.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Interesting compilation, given the discussion of rating OLs. Some wild discrepancies:

 

ESPN is big time different from PFF.

 

It brings me back to Warren Sharp questioning PFF numbers about this team's O line from a couple of years ago saying PFF had them rated well but his metrics showed they were poor.  If I recall his explanation was he graded it on pure passing downs and when he did that their O line was the worst or one of the worst.

 

In other words on true passing downs can they protect.  He said PFF throws everything in the soup and don't factor things that way but he does.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It brings me back to Warren Sharp questioning PFF numbers about this team's O line from a couple of years ago saying PFF had them rated well but his metrics showed they were poor.  If I recall his explanation was he graded it on pure passing downs and when he did that their O line was the worst or one of the worst.

 

I find Warren Sharp annoying, personally, but that's an interesting analysis. Explains a lot.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

33 minutes ago, WilberMarshall said:

 

It is mostly on Sam by a lopsided margin. Not only does he hold onto the ball, his pocket awareness still needs a lot of work. I like him but he should help himself or he will be on the list of former Washington QBs. 

 

He has to try to get into a rhythm early by checking down early and often to keep drives alive and get the DBs squatting on routes. It sets up the deep shots downfield. 

What is most infuriating is that the early dump-offs are there and he does not take them.  

 

He has to learn to play situational football. 

How did you come to that conclusion?  
 

I’m not saying you’re wrong, you are just the first I’ve seen make such a bold statement.  Typically the check downs are obvious on the broadcast, but I wasn’t seeing that.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, method man said:

Where you contradict yourself a bit is, if you want to go with a heavy run game, Wylie is better for that than Lucas. He is a much better athlete.

 

If the goal is a heavy pass mix, Lucas is a better fit for that

Thats fair. I just can't stand seeing that dopey dip**** fall down when pass rushers run by him.

[NoCalMike]

The question I have is whether the what Sam is doing is different from what the majority of QBs are doing at that age/experience level or is it a Sam-specific issue. I am sure there are a handful of elite QBs that look great from Day 1, but to me the coaches have done Sam a disservice going into the season with this O-line and EB has done a disservice to Howell so far with using the (working) running game so sparingly.  That doesn't mean Sam also isn't making mistakes, but I think there are certain growing pains you expect with a young QB regardless, so why not try to help him out during the growing pains times?

[WilberMarshall]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

How did you come to that conclusion?  
 

I’m not saying you’re wrong, you are just the first I’ve seen make such a bold statement.  Typically the check downs are obvious on the broadcast, but I wasn’t seeing that.

Maybe I am a glutton for punishment but I rewatch games over and over. Don't really watch much TV aside from my football Sunday gameday experience. When you get a chance you will notice the design of some of the plays... where attention on route runners typically takes attention away from the backs out of the backfield, enough time before the backers recognize that the back is unaccounted for. Dumping it off in plenty of time will allow the RB to get the ball in space. It is also why our screen game has worked in the first 2 games. They also worked because he got them the ball before the DBs/LBs recognized that the RB was unaccounted for. 

In a lot of the sacks he has taken he has had an outlet pass but he being a gamer, tries to make plays. 

I wish he had someone like Alex Smith mentoring him. Or he should just watch tapes of Alex Smith. 

 

My thinking also is that EB is also setting things up for later down the season. Showing stuff and tendencies early (1st quarter of the season) for use later in the season, especially against divisional opponents. This game will let me know how good or bad the combo of EB/Howell is. 

 

 

[PigskinPhat]

It’s not complicated.

Our oline is not good at pass protecting.

But that’s always been our DNA.

Smashmouth football

Joe Gibbs won with Theismann, Williams, and Rypien. Whoever you put back there, you need to run.

Even rocks break if you hit it often enough.

Run the damn ball!

[Wyvern]

Maybe some more awareness training is needed for the offensive line.  Three guys just standing there before Sam has to scramble into another sack?

 

 

---

 

[Warhead36]

Yeah what the hell how is 92 being blocked by what looks like a RB while three guys stand there blocking air and the other three are blocking guys one on one. 

 

There's gotta be a disconnect somewhere. Is it Howell not adjusting the protection?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[El Mexican]

7 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Interesting compilation, given the discussion of rating OLs. Some wild discrepancies:

 

All those stats mean JACK.

 

We are dead last in sacks allowed with 19! WTF!

[method man]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jay Gruden isn't the be all and end all.  But he also knows football and is far from a Howell homer so I see him as an objective observer.   From his watching of that game he again put it mostly on protection and receivers struggiling to get open.  If the receivers aren't open, he's going to hold on to the ball until they get open.  But he did put the picks on Howell, bad decisions.

 

 

 

 

ESPN is big time different from PFF.

 

It brings me back to Warren Sharp questioning PFF numbers about this team's O line from a couple of years ago saying PFF had them rated well but his metrics showed they were poor.  If I recall his explanation was he graded it on pure passing downs and when he did that their O line was the worst or one of the worst.

 

In other words on true passing downs can they protect.  He said PFF throws everything in the soup and don't factor things that way but he does.

I remember that from a year+ ago. His argument is that the metrics looked better than they truly were because Heinicke was doing a lot of quick passing game, much moreso than league average 

[XxSpearheadxX]

I don't ever want to see BRob averaging 7 yards a carry and us not feed him the rock ever again. That is unacceptable. If you have that hard a time judging how the game plan is fairing then he needs to go up in the booth to get a better view or something. 

[CobraCommander]

9 minutes ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

I don't ever want to see BRob averaging 7 yards a carry and us not feed him the rock ever again. That is unacceptable. If you have that hard a time judging how the game plan is fairing then he needs to go up in the booth to get a better view or something. 

In the same way the Scott Turner didn’t seem like a sideline OC, EB doesn’t seem like a booth OC. 

[tomwvr]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:55 AM, skinsmania123 said:

 

Nine sacks and no pressure on Josh Allen. We got manhandled, and lost the game at the line of scrimmage.  And the play calling on offense, abandoning the run, instead of adjusting, is on EB. They have got to start using Robinson a lot more, and sprinkle in some Rodriquez. 

 

Redskins have a solid D-line but yesterday it was obvious we have probably the worst O-line in the league. Washington can never find balance. The play calling is not balanced in terms of run/pass ratio.  Not enough Robinson.  No Dotson or Brown sightings.  Pushing it to the TE's, and Butler dropped two INT's as far as I could see.  

 

They are going to have to do what other teams have done when their O line is being manhandled and their QB is being pressured 80%.  They were talking about Daniel Jones being pressured 47% of the time and that not being sustainable for positive QB play, so 80%? They have to rectify this especially going into Philadelphia because their line will tee off on Howell. Instead of actually throwing to the TE's, how about setting them up on the line for protection and blocking, two- man set, during passing downs?  I noticed that worked really well in Minnesota with Cousin's when his O line was struggling in protection two years ago.  I thought they brought up the FB, from the practice squad, Alex Armah, to help with the blocking up front to be honest.  

Balance is not 50 run 50 pass. Its getting the ball to all the playmakers. I have no problem with 35-40 passes and 15-25 runs a game. As long as we throw passes to the backs to alleviate the pressure from the rush.

[Llevron]

10 minutes ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

I don't ever want to see BRob averaging 7 yards a carry and us not feed him the rock ever again. That is unacceptable. If you have that hard a time judging how the game plan is fairing then he needs to go up in the booth to get a better view or something. 

I have seen y’all say this a bunch. 
 

I can’t be the only one thinking that a big part of the reason he averages that much is because we use him at unexpected times, am I? Is it not a reciprocal relationship…..where if we run him more he will clearly run into more stacked boxes and not be as productive? 

[tomwvr]

4 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I have seen y’all say this a bunch. 
 

I can’t be the only one thinking that a big part of the reason he averages that much is because we use him at unexpected times, am I? Is it not a reciprocal relationship…..where if we run him more he will clearly run into more stacked boxes and not be as productive? 

If you look at the first 2 runs they were for short gains. The defense was expecting run and stopped them immediately

[FootballZombie]

2 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

If you look at the first 2 runs they were for short gains. The defense was expecting run and stopped them immediately

 

Our first two runs?

We only had two rushes on our first drive and they went for 7 yards and 5 yards.

[Koolblue13]

Scott Turner >> Eric B so far this season. 

[lovemaskins]

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Scott Turner >> Eric B so far this season. 

Whoa, first two games were great, last one not so much. The plays are there to be made but Howell has to take advantage too. There were plenty dump offs to be had and guys open, Howell got to find them. 

[kingdaddy]

11 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

That Denver game is looking like an anomaly now--given how badly Miami clown-pounded them into a skid mark on the Miami turf.

Mark Schlereth was on Sirius NFL radio today and said this about Sean Peyton:

(Paraphrasing) "Be careful when you come into a new situation and trash the former coaching regime (Hackett) for how bad they were...you just put up an all time stinker giving up 70". 

It was well said and he started by saying he is very good friends with Peyton. 

What goes around comes around.

[Skinsinparadise]

I was listening to Cooley. His take was Sam was responsible for a bunch of the sacks but he also thought the O line was bad