Next Day Thread: Sam Howell Just Got Sacked Again! (Buffalo Edition)

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Someone on ES posted video of how badly Sam missed a wide open (no one within 6 yards) Dotson standing in the endzone on the missed redzone drive where we turned it over on downs. So that's one we know of. 

That’s the one play I’m referring to.  Outside of that, I haven’t seen anything.  Even that play is iffy.

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I feel like if there was a bunch of damning evidence showing open reads and Sam is choosing to run into a sack instead, we’d have seen it already.

 

What you are saying makes total sense.  On the broadcast, there were no glaringly obvious missed receivers that I saw.  I haven’t played it back again though.  @skinny21 I know you did run it back and said the line wasn’t as bad as you thought the first time around on the broadcast.  We’re you able to notice any blatant misses by Sam, as far as having outlets for the ball that he didn’t pull the trigger on?

 

 

 

There will always of course for any QB to have receivers open that they don't see in any game.

 

I haven't rewatched the game.  But when I hear Jay Gruden who knows offense and is more than willing to throw any QB under the bus as to his takes about games -- said dudes weren't open and the pressure came fast.  So the combination made it very hard for Howell.

 

And even if I didn't hear it from Jay, Doctson and Terry's seperation numbers are among the worst in the league.  If we are talking about PFF, they have bad grades for our WRs.  

 

So I gather the 7 man coverages along with the 6 man protections and pressure -- makes it more difficult for our WRs to seperate.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There will always of course for any QB to have receivers open that they don't see in any game.

 

I haven't rewatched the game.  But when I hear Jay Gruden who knows offense and is more than willing to throw any QB under the bus as to his takes about games -- said dudes weren't open and the pressure came fast.  So the combination made it very hard for Howell.

 

And even if I didn't hear it from Jay, Doctson and Terry's seperation numbers are among the worst in the league.  If we are talking about PFF, they have bad grades for our WRs.  

 

So I gather the 7 man coverages along with the 6 man protections and pressure -- makes it more difficult for our WRs to seperate.

Agreed on Jay - while some here still don’t like him, I respect his analysis and he’s proven to be unbiased.  It’s not like he’s been in the bag for Sam.

 

But all this renders the question, how on earth does EB mitigate this?  If you can’t block 4 with 6, you are just **** out of luck.

[skinny21]

30 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I feel like if there was a bunch of damning evidence showing open reads and Sam is choosing to run into a sack instead, we’d have seen it already.

 

What you are saying makes total sense.  On the broadcast, there were no glaringly obvious missed receivers that I saw.  I haven’t played it back again though.  @skinny21 I know you did run it back and said the line wasn’t as bad as you thought the first time around on the broadcast.  We’re you able to notice any blatant misses by Sam, as far as having outlets for the ball that he didn’t pull the trigger on?

 

 

Good question, but I didn’t notice.  I was mostly focused on the line though because I was getting a doom and gloom feeling about this season due to the line (combined with Howell’s inexperience).  Of course, I think the broadcast angle makes it really difficult to parse receiver/qb/secondary play.  When does the all-22 come out - feel like its on Wednesdays?

 

Regarding the OL, just to be clear, I thought they did an adequate job in the sense that they did just enough…if the ball came out at the top of the drop (maybe with one hitch step).  Anything past that was usually going to be trouble though.  And the whole pocket collapsed pretty routinely (meaning no space to run/scramble).  In those circumstances, pretty expected that a young qb was gonna have a real tough time.  Howell had some miscues for sure (regardless of open/covered receivers), but its hard for me to really fault him.

[zCommander]

48 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Someone on ES posted video of how badly Sam missed a wide open (no one within 6 yards) Dotson standing in the endzone on the missed redzone drive where we turned it over on downs. So that's one we know of. 

 

In that play Howell is locked and loaded on to his 1st read, which is to his right, the DB that was covering Dotson sees that and starts running towards to where Howell is going to throw which in turn leaves Dotson wide open for an easy TD. 

 

Howell need to look to his 1st read and move the DBs in that direction but throw to his left once the DB bites. This has to be done really fast. Brady used to be master at this. Look to his right and then left but throw in the middle. 

 

Howell will learn that, hopefully sooner than later though.

[Koolblue13]

If it's me, I'm benching Wylie for Lucas.

 

Running more plays with CRod, Armah and Bates. All three of which are fine receivers but great blockers. 

 

Let Terry and Dotson/Samuels get quick hits, with two of the three I mentioned chipping and going out.

 

And Run the ****ing football. 

 

Force those 7 man coverages to come up, so the WRs can get behind them and you're blocking with decent blockers.

 

I don't care if we're running 100 offensive plays a game. We have small fast WRs that can get behind a defense, but you have to make the defense come play closer to the line.

 

I don't think EB is going to do any of that personally. I think he's going to pass 70% of the time, with Gibson, BRob and Turner as blockers.

[Riggo#44]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

The only one that really bothers me on this list is Moses/Wylie. Williams was not coming back. I firmly believe that was nothing Rivera could  have done, short of making him the highest player in the league? Flowers was good--but he's now about 400 lbs and out of the league. Plus I feel like our guards are decent/least of the problems. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I am sure Scherff isn't outperforming Cosmi that much, given how much he's being paid (plus the Jags are Jagging, again). Roullier retired, unfortunately. Moses however, was a big misstep. And Wylie just sucks. I can't remember seeing an tackle that bad in a long, long time.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

In that play Howell is locked and loaded on to his 1st read, which is to his right, the DB that was covering Dotson sees that and starts running towards to where Howell is going to throw which in turn leaves Dotson wide open for an easy TD. 

 

Howell need to look to his 1st read and move the DBs in that direction but throw to his left once the DB bites. This has to be done really fast. Brady used to be master at this. Look to his right and then left but throw in the middle. 

 

Howell will learn that, hopefully sooner than later though.

On this play I believe it was Wiley got beat and would have prevented him the ability to make the throw to Dotson anyways.

[FootballZombie]

15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

And Run the ****ing football. 

 

Force those 7 man coverages to come up, so the WRs can get behind them and you're blocking with decent blockers.

 

I don't care if we're running 100 offensive plays a game. We have small fast WRs that can get behind a defense, but you have to make the defense come play closer to the line.

 

Yup.

If they are gonna keep presenting light fronts and push a defensive formation that makes passing behind a bad O-line nearly impossible, the answer from a playcalling standpoint is not passing the ball on 80% of plays in the first half like we currently are. That is quite literally the path of most resistance.

 

Run the ball right into that light front. Repeatedly. They are practically giving you free yards. Then either 1 of 2 things likely happen

1.) The D has to change into plays that provide better run support, thus opening up the passing game

or

2.) The D just lets you have the run

 

Either way it beats racking up sacks.

[zCommander]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

On this play I believe it was Wiley got beat and would have prevented him the ability to make the throw to Dotson anyways.

 

Maybe. But some are saying Dotson was wide open on that play and why Howell didn't throw to him. I was detailing how he was wide open.

 

Howell had already set his feet and his arm back to throw so Howell wasn't looking for anyone else anyway.

[Warhead36]

We gotta get back to screens. Can't believe I'm saying that considering how bad we've been at them the last few years but in the first two weeks our screen game was quite good. Not sure why we went away from it. 

[Riggo#44]

That Denver game is looking like an anomaly now--given how badly Miami clown-pounded them into a skid mark on the Miami turf.

[Spaceman Spiff]

16 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

In 2020 the Bucs won the Super Bowl. They lost at home to the Saints 38-3.

 

The 2021 eventual champion Rams suffered 12 and 17 point losses at home to the Titans and Cardinals. They also suffered a loss to the 9ers in San Fran 31-10.

 

The 2021 Super Bowl runner up Bengals suffered home losses to the Browns and Chargers by 25 and 19 points.

 

Its the NFL. Sometimes even the good teams just get skunked.

 

Fair.  But we're not a really good team.  I mean, we haven't been.  The 2020 Bucs had Tom Brady.  The 2021 Rams have a coach I'd prefer to have over Rivera and a more talented, veteran QB (even though I think Stafford has always been overrated).  The 2021 Bengals had a QB I'd kill to have.

 

We don't have any of those things.  That's kind of the point, even when the good teams have been skunked in recent years, they still have things that separate them from where we currently are.  I want to believe Howell is the guy but there's still a long way to go.

[XxSpearheadxX]

As painful as this game was - this thread title has made me chuckle every time I log into the stadium. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

The only one that really bothers me on this list is Moses/Wylie. Williams was not coming back. I firmly believe that was nothing Rivera could  have done, short of making him the highest player in the league? Flowers was good--but he's now about 400 lbs and out of the league. Plus I feel like our guards are decent/least of the problems. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I am sure Scherff isn't outperforming Cosmi that much, given how much he's being paid (plus the Jags are Jagging, again). Roullier retired, unfortunately. Moses however, was a big misstep. And Wylie just sucks. I can't remember seeing an tackle that bad in a long, long time.

 

I didn't fault Ron then or even now for trading Trent.  Or losing Scherff.  But when you lose two first round picks that consume a ton of cap space -- and then don't replace them with high draft picks or that cap allocation that they gained by letting the two go that's a problem.

 

 

[Daniel.redskins]

Every play has open receivers. The problem is Howell only has 3 seconds max to check his primary receiver, then his secondary, then at last decide if he's checking down or scrambling. He physically can't do what a lot fans expect with our o-line. 

 

When I watch Mahomes or Allen, it looks like if their primary receiver isn't there then they are immediately scrambling to buy more time.  Problem here is Howell doesn't have lanes to scramble.  I don't like the idea telling a young QB to throw the ball away, Mahomes would never waste a play.  ****, Howell doesn't even have time to throw the ball away.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Agreed on Jay - while some here still don’t like him, I respect his analysis and he’s proven to be unbiased.  It’s not like he’s been in the bag for Sam.

 

But all this renders the question, how on earth does EB mitigate this?  If you can’t block 4 with 6, you are just **** out of luck.

 

If they have 4 D lineman -- run at them.  This offensive line is better at run blocking to boot.

[Riggo#44]

38 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Fair.  But we're not a really good team.  I mean, we haven't been.  The 2020 Bucs had Tom Brady.  The 2021 Rams have a coach I'd prefer to have over Rivera and a more talented, veteran QB (even though I think Stafford has always been overrated).  The 2021 Bengals had a QB I'd kill to have.

 

We don't have any of those things.  That's kind of the point, even when the good teams have been skunked in recent years, they still have things that separate them from where we currently are.  I want to believe Howell is the guy but there's still a long way to go.

 

We absolutely are not. We're basically a mirror image of the Giants, pieces in place, but holes elsewhere. We're just not paying Sam Howell $40m...

[veteranskinsfan]

I just read this Wash Post article about Antonio Gibson fumbling again and how they just can't bench him because he is so valuable to the offense.

Total non-sense really.  This type of thinking will get Rivera fired at the end of the season.  The article was published today.  I could not believe

what I was reading.  Gibbs when he took those teams to the Super Bowl would often fire one player who was not a star just to keep the players

nervous that it could happen to them.  Of course Riggins was not a fumbler but Gibbs knew how to hold players accountable.  Gruden and Rivera

do not know how to make players accountable and that is why there records are so bad.

[Skinsinparadise]

Am starting to go through Keim and Bram's podcast.  Some points early on in the podcast.

 

A.  Keim goes Howell is a young QB, he needs more time than a veteran to throw the ball and this O line was poorly constructed on that front.  In short, in his usual polite way, he said he didn't think this FO did a hot job of giving Howell the protection he needs especially considering how young he is.

 

B.  Bram on rewatching the game said the Bills coaching was cued in on what this offense wanted to do.  they were on it and weren't fooled.  This team needs to self scout and see the tendenies the Bills were locked into.

 

C.  Keim criticized this draft from the context that there are no starters from this class this season.  He said Forbes is their #3 corner.  They like St. Juste and Fuller over him right now.  Forbes has been a liability against the run.  Quan right now is purely a special teams guy.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

If it's me, I'm benching Wylie for Lucas.

 

Running more plays with CRod, Armah and Bates. All three of which are fine receivers but great blockers. 

 

Let Terry and Dotson/Samuels get quick hits, with two of the three I mentioned chipping and going out.

 

And Run the ****ing football. 

 

Force those 7 man coverages to come up, so the WRs can get behind them and you're blocking with decent blockers.

 

I don't care if we're running 100 offensive plays a game. We have small fast WRs that can get behind a defense, but you have to make the defense come play closer to the line.

 

I don't think EB is going to do any of that personally. I think he's going to pass 70% of the time, with Gibson, BRob and Turner as blockers.

Where you contradict yourself a bit is, if you want to go with a heavy run game, Wylie is better for that than Lucas. He is a much better athlete.

 

If the goal is a heavy pass mix, Lucas is a better fit for that

[Chris 44]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Am starting to go through Keim and Bram's podcast.  Some points early on in the podcast.

 

A.  Keim goes Howell is a young QB, he needs more time than a veteran to throw the ball and this O line was poorly constructed on that front.  In short, in his usual polite way, he said he didn't think this FO did a hot job of giving Howell the protection he needs especially considering how young he is.

 

B.  Bram on rewatching the game said the Bills coaching was cued in on what this offense wanted to do.  they were on it and weren't fooled.  This team needs to self scout and see the tendenies the Bills were locked into.

 

C.  Keim criticized this draft from the context that there are no starters from this class this season.  He said Forbes is their #3 corner.  They like St. Juste and Fuller over him right now.  Forbes has been a liability against the run.  Quan right now is purely a special teams guy.

Not looking like a good draft, especially the early rounds.

[Riggo#44]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Am starting to go through Keim and Bram's podcast.  Some points early on in the podcast.

 

A.  Keim goes Howell is a young QB, he needs more time than a veteran to throw the ball and this O line was poorly constructed on that front.  In short, in his usual polite way, he said he didn't think this FO did a hot job of giving Howell the protection he needs especially considering how young he is.

 

B.  Bram on rewatching the game said the Bills coaching was cued in on what this offense wanted to do.  they were on it and weren't fooled.  This team needs to self scout and see the tendenies the Bills were locked into.

 

C.  Keim criticized this draft from the context that there are no starters from this class this season.  He said Forbes is their #3 corner.  They like St. Juste and Fuller over him right now.  Forbes has been a liability against the run.  Quan right now is purely a special teams guy.

 

In an offseason the Front Office needed to kill, sounds like they shot themselves in the foot...

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Not looking like a good draft, especially the early rounds.

 

Gonzalez was who i wanted when the pick came up.  I was cool with Forbes once I absorbed the pick.  I know many of us fell in love with the narrative around Forbes.  Skinny but feisty and he studies hard and makes picks. 

 

And look CBs often take time.  But right now Gonzalez is looking very good and Belichick is comparing him to Gilmore and Forbes according to Keim is their #3 corner.  If we are going to push PFF numbers on the O line front, which sometimes i consider, sometimes I don't -- Forbes has been bad by their metrics.  But its just been 3 games.   

 

According to Keim they right now see him as their third best corner.  He got 40% snaps in the last game.   And he mentioned his struggles against the run.

 

As for Quan, clearly they don't seem to have faith in him right now in major situations if he's a special teams guy.  I know he played only special teams in the first game.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

In an offseason the Front Office needed to kill, sounds like they shot themselves in the foot...

 

It felt that way to me among others even when the sentiment was they have just one 2023 starter from that class.  Now it looks a bit more sketchy as Keim stated in his podcast when they have no 2023 starters in this class

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If they have 4 D lineman -- run at them.  This offensive line is better at run blocking to boot.

Agreed, but I feel like we need to get out of shotgun to be most effective doing that.