Next Day Thread: Sam Howell Just Got Sacked Again! (Buffalo Edition)

[FootballZombie]

Somebody is gonna have to explain how the Ariz game is an example of good halftime offensive adjustments.

 

-0 yard yard drive. Punt

-2 yard drive. Punt

-Got ball at the 29. 29 yard drive.TD

-9 yard drive. Punt

-Got ball at the 21. 7 yard drive. FG

-negative 5 yard drive. Punt.

 

They didn't score a single point that was not essentially handed to them and racked up an amazing 42 yards in the half.

That's trash.

[RandyHolt]

I think I want an OC that knows how many sacks his QB has taken since we are projected to likely shatter records. We always seem to be flirting with some unthinkable futility record every damn year. Most 3rd and 15+ allowed blah blah.

Edited September 29, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Thinking Skins]

Just for solace I wanted to look up who else was in this company. Who else has been this bad? Well we know nobody. But surely somebody has been sacked 8 times and thrown 3 ints. So I looked that up and these are the names I got..

 

14 Joe Theismann WAS 1978

15 Mike Rae TAM 1978

16 Jim Plunkett RAI 1983

17 Ron Jaworski PHI 1983

18 Eric Hipple DET 1983

19 Paul McDonald CLE 1984

20 Warren Moon HOU 1985

21 Randall Cunningham PHI 1986

22 Troy Aikman DAL 1991

23 Donald Hollas OAK 1998

24 Tony Banks STL 1998

25 Terrelle Pryor OAK 2013

26 Cam Newton CAR 2014

27 Teddy Bridgewater MIN 2014

28 Tyrod Taylor BUF 2015

29 Cam Newton CAR 2016

30 Sam Darnold NYJ 2019

31 Sam Howell WAS 2023

 

https://stathead.com/football/player-game-finder.cgi?request=1&match=player_game_count_season&ccomp[1]=gt&cval[1]=3&cstat[1]=pass_int&ccomp[2]=gt&cval[2]=8&cstat[2]=pass_sacked

 

That's the link in case anybody cares and wants to do anything with it. I've been up late doing chores and don't have much time to number crunch any more. 

 

As you can see, there are some names I didn't include.

 

The name that stands out to me is Joe T. He belongs to the 3&8 club and definitely has the similar measurables as Howell and lived to have the career. That's what I want to see. 

 

On the other end is a guy like Aikman who I wouldn't compare to Howell (Howell is more of a Young guy) but, this is promising still because it shows it's not the end of the world. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Thinking Skins

[SkinsFTW]

39 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Just for solace I wanted to look up who else was in this company. Who else has been this bad? Well we know nobody. But surely somebody has been sacked 8 times and thrown 3 ints. So I looked that up and these are the names I got..

 

 

Look at that list. It's happened 7 times in the past 25 years. That includes Sam Howell 

 

Look who is also on the list twice. Cam Newton.

 

This means that RR has been the coach of 3 of 7 of these over a quarter century.

 

That's pretty bad. Rivera doesn't exactly protect his QBs. I used to watch Cam Newton run and wonder how long he's going to last. It wasn't that long considering the talent, he just never learned how to play QB 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by SkinsFTW

[Conn]

 

[Thinking Skins]

5 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Look at that list. It's happened 7 times in the past 25 years. That includes Sam Howell 

 

Look who is also on the list twice. Cam Newton.

 

This means that RR has been the coach of 3 of 7 of these over a quarter century.

 

That's pretty bad. Rivera doesn't exactly protect his QBs. I used to watch Cam Newton run and wonder how long he's going to last. It wasn't that long considering the talent, he just never learned how to play QB 

 

I noticed that too but my thought when I saw Cunningham was that maybe this was a partial product of running QBs not giving up on plays and this taking more sacks and making the OL look worse. 

[Thinking Skins]

So one question I have is...why did the coaches leave the QB out there? So i looked up some of these games. Teddy B for example. That's his rookie year, and he only had 7 sacks going into that last drive but they took him back out there. and he dropped back 7 times, sacked once, and ran once himself. but couldn't get to FG range. But they already had their 3. 

 

Similar things can be said about Cunningham's stats although we should note that he threw 3 ints and took 10 sacks. But he was very early in his career so they probably wanted him to learn from it. 

 

And in the AIkman stats, he actually belongs in the 3 & 11 club. But it was early in his career so he had already shown some promise worth developing. PHilly beat Dallas 24-0 that day. Aikman had only 112 yards and Emmitt had 44 yards on the ground. It must have been brutal. But he learned from it. 

 

I wonder if any of these guys have reached out to Howell. Not saying I expect them to, but it'd be cool to be able to share these stories with somebody, like belonging to this club. Talking to Warren Moon like "yeah we both suck now. " but only joking. 

 

ITs also interesting that (I think) the only name I see on there twice is Cam. Does that mean something? Did he never learn to protect himself like the others? Or did he learn after the second time? Or did the injuries just take him away from the game?
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Conn said:

 

 

If this team isn't actually aware of how many sacks actually happened, do these sacks really count though?

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Me, too.  Now that's a draft

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Seems like the media covering NY is fixated on changing their O line coach.  It could just be that Evan Neal sucks.  Their new Erik Flowers 

 

 

[Rex Tomb]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Me, too.  Now that's a draft

 

 

 

It's too bad they are not giving Jahmyr Gibbs the touches he should be getting.  He's way more explosive than David Montgomery and yet he only gets a fraction of the carries.  Why spend a top 10 pick on the guy and then have him sit out a bunch of plays?  

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Me, too.  Now that's a draft

 

Those first four picks were super impressive.  Branch looks snake bit though.  I've seen him suffer significant leg injuries in two Thursday games within his first month in the NFL.  He's just not going to last long at this rate, which is a shame because he was one of my favorite players in last year's draft class.  A legit top 20 talent IMO, and in competition for best DB in class with Witherspoon.

 

Alabama players have a dark cloud hanging over their pro careers that Ohio State, Georgia, and Clemson guys don't have.  Sometimes it feels like we got some of the only Alabama guys who beat the curse, but we had to draft 15 of them to find the few whose bodies have held up.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Going Commando

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Seems like the media covering NY is fixated on changing their O line coach.  It could just be that Evan Neal sucks.  Their new Erik Flowers 

 

 

I think that's a big part of our problem that gets overlooked. Our TE coach is a solid OL coach and was working with two units for most of the offseason, instead of being focused on one. 

 

Four new starters on the OL. You'd think that might be a priority. 

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Me, too.  Now that's a draft

 

 

 

Remember when everyone was crushing them for these picks? I’d love to have Gibbs and Brian Robinson as our backfield (of course, EB would be refusing to use them but…).

 

And Campbell… what a difference he and Pace could make. We couldn’t have gotten Campbell at least. 
 

Branch is snakebit. Agreed with Steve on that. 
 

LaPorta would be a real nice have right now, too. 
 

I hate the way we run this team.

[Conn]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think that's a big part of our problem that gets overlooked. Our TE coach is a solid OL coach and was working with two units for most of the offseason, instead of being focused on one. 

 

Four new starters on the OL. You'd think that might be a priority. 

They had the OL coach they wanted in-house (big surprise) all offseason long in the OL room doing his job, his promotion just didn’t go through until after Snyder sold. 

[Going Commando]

To add: I've been watching the Steelers this year out of curiosity about Kenny Pickett (basically hoping to see him look worse than Howell), and I was shocked by how bad Najee Harris looks now.  He's totally lost his decisiveness and he is slow as Hell now.  There is no burst or wiggle left in his runs, and no ability to create in the backfield.

 

He started his career off with a Pro Bowl and two thousand yard ten TD seasons, but he broke down fast.  25 years old and washed up looking.  I know helmet scouting is irrational, but I'm about to make a personal guideline to avoid Nick Saban offensive skill players in the first round.  Many of us here wanted Najee instead of Jamin after their rookie seasons, but that would have been the wrong call. 

 

That 2021 draft class was a mine field.  Darrisaw, Landon Dickerson, Greg Rosseau, and maybe Etienne, Tyson Campbell, are the only late first/early second round alternatives to Jamin who might end up being really good picks.  Richie Grant and Jevon Holland are decent players, but they are basically JAGs in sketchy defenses.  Greg Newsome, Trevon Moehrig, and Eric Stokes have been pretty big disappointments, and Caleb Farley has been a complete bust.  Javonte Williams has been injured so much.  Najee is the only one of the entire class between Jamin and Cosmi aside from Dickerson to make a Pro-Bowl, and he's already started breaking down.  Teven Jenkins is a bust whose played less than Cosmi has.  All of the DLs except Rosseau (Jayson Oweh, Joe Tryon, Kwity Paye) have been JAGs at best, busts at worse (Payton Turner, Onwuzurike, Barmore).  All of the receivers from that range have been major busts: Rondale Moore has never been healthy, neither has Bateman and he's essentially been replaced already by Zay Flowers, and Elijah Moore and Kadarius Toney are already on their second teams.

 

The top 18 picks are going to be littered with Probowlers, and we missed the boat on that.  Almost all feast in front of us, and then a whole lot of famine over the next 50 picks.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Remember when everyone was crushing them for these picks? I’d love to have Gibbs and Brian Robinson as our backfield (of course, EB would be refusing to use them but…).

 

And Campbell… what a difference he and Pace could make. We couldn’t have gotten Campbell at least. 
 

Branch is snakebit. Agreed with Steve on that. 
 

LaPorta would be a real nice have right now, too. 
 

I hate the way we run this team.

 

Yeah Laporta and Campbell were on my guys list, top 20.  I know you loved them, too.  Loved Gibbs and Branch, too. 

 

Will see about snake bitten.  Alabama has had a good run with DTs -- ours, Tomlinson, J. Reed, etc. The Alabama safeties have had mostly really good careers -- M. Fitzpatrick, Eddie Jackson, etc. Landon Collins fell off a cliff but was a pro bowler earlier.

 

At a minimum this is looking like a crap draft for the 2023 season.   Keim referenced right now they don't see Forbes as a starter, he's their 3rd corner.  Martin is a special teams guy purely right now.  The other guys are deep on the bench.  Keim who is usually very reluctant to criticize even took a shot at how little this draft is looking to contribute to this season.

 

In a win now year, Rivera certainly did not do himself many favors this off season.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

I'm having problems with my Internet connection but I want to look into some other questions

 

- how were the running games in those offenses?

 - how young were those QBs?

- how did the team react? Both in the next game and the locker room of that's available?

- how did the team offenses rank?

 

I'll probably come up with more but this is just something I'm thinking about right now and I don't feel like thinking about other things. Maybe I'll answer these questions maybe not. Thing is. Howell is not alone. 

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I noticed that too but my thought when I saw Cunningham was that maybe this was a partial product of running QBs not giving up on plays and this taking more sacks and making the OL look worse. 

 

Our very own RG3 did the same. The OL at that time complained that it is hard on them and can't protect him when he runs around. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Conn said:

They had the OL coach they wanted in-house (big surprise) all offseason long in the OL room doing his job, his promotion just didn’t go through until after Snyder sold. 

 

Ron's mantra seems to be on 2nd thought the solution is "in house".

 

Among other things i recall this off season, hearing that they really wanted to upgrade LB.  But then on 2nd thought Rivera decided Hudson's minicamp proves he doesn't need another.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah Laporta and Campbell were on my guys list, top 20.  I know you loved them, too.  Loved Gibbs and Branch, too. 

 

Will see about snake bitten.  Alabama has had a good run with DTs -- ours, Tomlinson, J. Reed, etc. The Alabama safeties have had mostly really good careers -- M. Fitzpatrick, Eddie Jackson, etc. Landon Collins fell off a cliff but was a pro bowler earlier.

 

At a minimum this is looking like a crap draft for the 2023 season.   Keim referenced right now they don't see Forbes as a starter, he's their 3rd corner.  Martin is a special teams guy purely right now.  The other guys are deep on the bench.  Keim who is usually very reluctant to criticize even took a shot at how little this draft is looking to contribute to this season.

 

In a win now year, Rivera certainly did not do himself many favors this off season.

 

To be fair your 3rd corner is really a starter with the amount of 11 personnel teams line up in. But the point stands that the draft looks like it will not really contribute much this season. Its way early though to be drawing conclusions on what players like Martin and Stromberg (or Forbes) end up being.

[Thinking Skins]

58 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Our very own RG3 did the same. The OL at that time complained that it is hard on them and can't protect him when he runs around. 

Yeah, I remember. 

 

I had a lot of thoughts this week and rather than putting them all on here, I just took some time away from football as I do when we lose. It helps. But when I listened people were so frustrated with the now, with what they were hearing, wanting solutions, and stuff. 

 

One guy was saying that sack rates from colleges don't change into the pros. I want to look into that. I want to see how accurate his work is. I know it's not true in general because of the people I've mentioned here. There are several people here who took a lot of sacks early on and then stopped. Was it because they suddenly got good lines? Or did they get good pocket presence? 

 

Maybe his results show that for guys, college stats and early in their careers they have similar sack rates, but that's misleading. I look at Aikman and Theisman and say you can get better. 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm having problems with my Internet connection but I want to look into some other questions

 

- how were the running games in those offenses?

 - how young were those QBs?

- how did the team react? Both in the next game and the locker room of that's available?

- how did the team offenses rank?

 

I'll probably come up with more but this is just something I'm thinking about right now and I don't feel like thinking about other things. Maybe I'll answer these questions maybe not. Thing is. Howell is not alone. 

 

Well I know Joey T had sat on the bench at Washington behind Sonny and Billy since he was acquired in 1974 - he had played 3 years in Canada after being drafted by the Dolphins in 1971 so he was not a raw young player. 1978 was his first year as the designated starter. We went 8-8 in 1978 so it did not crush the season - seemed like a team in transition with a new QB. 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

To be fair your 3rd corner is really a starter with the amount of 11 personnel teams line up in. But the point stands that the draft looks like it will not really contribute much this season. Its way early though to be drawing conclusions on what players like Martin and Stromberg (or Forbes) end up being.

 

I get the point but with Forbes getting 40% of the snaps last game, Keim explained it by saying that this team right now sees him as their 3rd best corner behind St. Juste and Fuller and flat out said he's not a starter right now.

 

I gather Forbes isn't getting starter level snaps because a safety is taking some of the slot snaps and is alternating with St. Juste -- with St. Juste moving outside and inside.

 

I agree about it being too early to judge what type of players they will be -- but the idea is some teams like the Lions among them having their draft making an impact big time right away, that's not the case here and its a major plot line in a win now season.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I look at Aikman and Theisman and say you can get better. 

 

Joey is interesting from an interception perspective. He had more picks that TDs overall in his 3 years in Canada and then in 11 starts over 76 and 77 plus his 14 starts in 78 he had more picks than TDs in the NFL. He continued to throw a lot of picks until Joe Gibbs and he had that famous come to Jesus meeting and the light build went on in 1982. In the modern NFL Joey T would have likely been replaced way before 1982.

 

Sam won't get the rope Joey T was given. He has to learn much quicker and he doesn't have Joe Gibbs coaching him.