Next Day Thread: Sam Howell Just Got Sacked Again! (Buffalo Edition)

[RandyHolt]

Sucks that it appears that Forbes is not a shutdown corner - that's my expectation of 1st round corners.  Martin doesn't even have a tackle. No more draft day toys for JDR.

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I agree about it being too early to judge what type of players they will be -- but the idea is some teams like the Lions among them having their draft making an impact big time right away, that's not the case here and its a major plot line in a win now season.

 

Agreed. That is not a surprise though I recall us having conversations about this being the way it would play out - though I think there was hope Martin at least would be getting some meaningful defensive snaps at this point. Behind him we didn't see a way for many to get on the field early.

 

Ron the GM did Ron the HC no favors. 

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Well I know Joey T had sat on the bench at Washington behind Sonny and Billy since he was acquired in 1974 - he had played 3 years in Canada after being drafted by the Dolphins in 1971 so he was not a raw young player. 1978 was his first year as the designated starter. We went 8-8 in 1978 so it did not crush the season - seemed like a team in transition with a new QB. 

But that's exactly the point. That was only Joe T's second (third) year as a starter if I'm correct. So he was still going through growing pains. 

 

His sack rates were 11.9, 14.2, and 9.7. 

 

We see Howell with his numbers and they are not unprecedented. 

 

[GoDeep81]

Doom. Doom and Gloom. DOOM!!! 🙃 Long season fellas.. 

[MartinC]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

But that's exactly the point. That was only Joe T's second (third) year as a starter if I'm correct. So he was still going through growing pains. 

 

His sack rates were 11.9, 14.2, and 9.7. 

 

We see Howell with his numbers and they are not unprecedented. 

 

If you count Canada it was his fourth year as a starter - it was his first year starting full time in the NFL.

[RandyHolt]

Awesome that JoeT returned punts. I cannot recall any other QB with returning punts on their resume.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Warhead36]

You can get away with smaller guys on offense, especially WRs. Move them around in space. Don't use them in certain packages, etc.

 

Harder to do on defense.

[MartinC]

50 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Awesome that JoeT returned punts. I cannot recall any other QB with returning punts on their resume.

 

He also attempted a punt. But we will gloss over the results of that ...

[DJHJR86]

 

I thought this was a decent answer, but his refusal to admit that Robinson ran the ball well and effective was weird.  Also he admits to helping put together the roster.  

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

I thought this was a decent answer, but his refusal to admit that Robinson ran the ball well and effective was weird.  Also he admits to helping put together the roster.  

 

EB will be better once he says "I need to be better" instead of saying EB needs to be better. He needs to trust himself first instead of his alter ego in the 3rd person form. 

[RandyHolt]

44 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

He also attempted a punt. But we will gloss over the results of that ...

Nice pull. You can always tell the long time fans.  But hey 1 yard punts are always better than 0.

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

They had the OL coach they wanted in-house (big surprise) all offseason long in the OL room doing his job, his promotion just didn’t go through until after Snyder sold. 

Wharton wasn't with the team for some personal stuff I thought, so Castilo, who was listed as TE coach was overseeing both, then when Snyder sold, Wharton came back, Todd Storm (I know nothing about him) became TE coach and Castilo was promoted to "run game coordinator". 

[skinny21]

23 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wharton wasn't with the team for some personal stuff I thought, so Castilo, who was listed as TE coach was overseeing both, then when Snyder sold, Wharton came back, Todd Storm (I know nothing about him) became TE coach and Castilo was promoted to "run game coordinator". 

I believe Wharton just missed a week or 2 of TC due to back surgery.  Pretty sure he was coaching the OL all offseason otherwise, he just didn’t get the official title until the ownership change.

[Koolblue13]

[NewCliche21]

19 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I dunno, he strikes me as a guy who doesn’t really care at all how he sounds or what he says.

 

He’s a meathead for sure.  But when you draw up winning game plans and the players buy-in, it can work.  When you get your QB sacked nine times and, 4 of them occur while trying for a FG down 5+ TDs in the 4th quarter, he sounds like a buffoon.

 

 

I don't know what you're talking about.  He's a poor speaker regardless of the scoreboard.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I don't know what you're talking about.  He's a poor speaker regardless of the scoreboard.

I wasn’t defending the way he publicly speaks, just that it’s not really important for a coordinator to do it well.  

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

But that's exactly the point. That was only Joe T's second (third) year as a starter if I'm correct. So he was still going through growing pains. 

 

His sack rates were 11.9, 14.2, and 9.7. 

 

We see Howell with his numbers and they are not unprecedented. 

 

It’s not helpful to compare modern sack rate stats to 1970’s + 1980’s stats. Nothing about how a QB developed back then or what growing pains they went through 30-40 years ago matters. Different game, different rules, different schematic expectations, different roster construction context with the salary cap and rookie wage scale. Nothing that happened with Joey T or Aikman or Cunningham really applies. I would consider that a fruitless endeavor.  

[NewCliche21]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wasn’t defending the way he publicly speaks, just that it’s not really important for a coordinator to do it well.  

 

I don't care, either, it was just the topic of coversation.

He and Ron just tend to buffet on saying stupid **** that makes me question their understanding of the situation, especially Ron. Didn't know we were eliminated from the playoffs, didn't know Sam was good, enamored with SEC interceptions. Like come on.

To your point, when we're winning I don't care. When we're losing I want everything that can improve to improve. If that's what you meant, then yeah, I'm with you.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I don't care, either, it was just the topic of coversation.

He and Ron just tend to buffet on saying stupid **** that makes me question their understanding of the situation, especially Ron. Didn't know we were eliminated from the playoffs, didn't know Sam was good, enamored with SEC interceptions. Like come on.

To your point, when we're winning I don't care. When we're losing I want everything that can improve to improve. If that's what you meant, then yeah, I'm with you.

I get it.

 

Snyder’s contagious sludge must still be in the building, because EB seems to have picked up where every other coach has left off with a nic in their face.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I get it.

 

Snyder’s contagious sludge must still be in the building, because EB seems to have picked up where every other coach has left off with a nic in their face.

EB= Epic Buffon. 

[Conn]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wasn’t defending the way he publicly speaks, just that it’s not really important for a coordinator to do it well.  

You’re right, but he’s an OC whose entire public persona and national media narrative is built around the idea that he’s had 15 HC interviews without getting hired despite maybe being deserving—or not. So for him, it’s extremely important. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Conn said:

You’re right, but he’s an OC whose entire public persona and national media narrative is built around the idea that he’s had 15 HC interviews without getting hired despite maybe being deserving—or not. So for him, it’s extremely important. 

Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like that ship has sailed - barring some fairy tale like story with Sam and this team as a result of his coaching.

 

I’ve never subscribed to the EB to HC, Ron to the FO, or whatever else narratives.  I think it’s easy to see why so many passed on him, he’s ****y, brash and apparently has the tendency to put his foot in his mouth.  

[Thinking Skins]

22 minutes ago, Conn said:

It’s not helpful to compare modern sack rate stats to 1970’s + 1980’s stats. Nothing about how a QB developed back then or what growing pains they went through 30-40 years ago matters. Different game, different rules, different schematic expectations, different roster construction context with the salary cap and rookie wage scale. Nothing that happened with Joey T or Aikman or Cunningham really applies. I would consider that a fruitless endeavor.  

I disagree. It's all about reading defenses, disguising blitzes, spotting the blitzing man, throwing to the open guy, throwing it away, scrambling, hitting the open man, etc. 

 

Principles

 

Now there's more running QBs though. 

[Conn]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I disagree. It's all about reading defenses, disguising blitzes, spotting the blitzing man, throwing to the open guy, throwing it away, scrambling, hitting the open man, etc. 

 

Principles

 

Now there's more running QBs though. 

I maintain my position that it is not useful data to parse, if you’re trying to see if modern day QB’s can “grow out” of taking tons of sacks by looking at guys who played 30 years ago. It’s not just about the QB position and how it’s played. It’s the franchise decision-making apparatus around the QB, the schematic difference in how these guys are developed from college prospects, the rules changes that have resulted in the freakiest athletes gravitating towards EDGE to pressure the all-important QB (another difference in eras), making it easier to pass but harder to excel. All of that means that QB development and expectations are very from the time periods you’re talking about, which I’ll expand on below.
 

The salary cap and rookie wage scale combine to form the context within which teams evaluate QBs—and how long they can afford to give them to develop. That window during a young QBs rookie contract informs the entire process in a way that didn’t exist before. You can no longer roster a guy for 6 years waiting for him to maybe get it, nobody who drafted him will be around by then. You can almost never just stack an incredible team around a random guy at QB anymore and expect to truly compete, because of the salary cap. Guys have to develop into potential franchise-carrying QBs in a shorter window or be moved on from. You would never see a Joey T career play out nowadays.
 

There’s also the way NFL offenses now more closely mirror college concepts to ease the transition for their young QBs, because they’re valuable while they’re cheap. Related to the window mentioned above. The 24/7 sports media cycle is part of this difference as well—in the 80’s you could draft a QB in the late 1st and nothing was expected for years, you wouldn’t hear a peep about the guy forever. It was assumed it would take a long time and there was no salary cap pressure to **** or get off the pot. A guy could spend years not really developing or even actively hurting his team taking a million sacks, and it wouldn’t necessarily effect the competitiveness of the franchise to the same level that it does now due to differences in the game and differences in roster building rules and how teams have to use cap space/draft pick resources 

 

My last point here is about the rules changes. Young potential franchise QBs can’t be protected for half a decade or more these days by smash mouth football that downplays the QBs impact, not to the same degree. There is a limited window, and it’s a passing league (again due to rules changes). It’s easier to pass the ball on defenses and offensive players are protected more than ever—but it means that more of the load is expected to be placed on the QB and the best athletes on the field are developed exclusively to kill QBs. It’s much harder to “hide” a QB these days until he grows out of bad habits. 
 

In conclusion, a lot of guys who were afforded the time, energy, and luxury to develop slowly would never make it in the league these days—sad as it is to see. He’s not even an elite QB but look at what an absolute anomaly Geno Smith is in the modern game for a good example. He basically had an 80’s QB development curve and came out the other side a seemingly productive starter—a rarity in the modern game, for many of the reasons I listed above but mainly the salary cap/rookie wage scale reason (and the way those things trickle down to FO and coaching staff retainment rates). 
 

TL, DR; looking at QBs from 30 years ago who were afforded the time and opportunity to slowly grow out of taking too many sacks—in order to find hope about Howell, in this instance—is not a good use of your time because modern day QBs operate and develop in an entirely different ecosystem and context.