Next Day Thread: Sam Howell Just Got Sacked Again! (Buffalo Edition)

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

He spread the ball all over in Denver too...I think yesterday he was shell-shocked somewhat because he had no time. He's going thru some baptism by fire for sure...this is where the coaching needs to show up in film sessions. 

I also think he could use a taller WR to lean on some in the redzone...we have mostly short guys. 

 

Logan Thomas not being out would have helped. 

[steve09ru]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Josh Allen is very good. On two of those 3rd and longs he created the chunk play off script. Sometimes the other guy is just better. 

Oh I’m not discounting Allen but you don’t rush 4 on 3rd and long every time to give him time.  You’ve got to get him flustered.  1 I could see but only rushing 4 and dropping everyone else back allows him the time to find the open hole and run which he did on 2 of those.  It was very bland defense early in the game when you need to set the tone

[BleedBNG]

 

[MartinC]

7 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

Oh I’m not discounting Allen but you don’t rush 4 on 3rd and long every time to give him time.  You’ve got to get him flustered.  1 I could see but only rushing 4 and dropping everyone else back allows him the time to find the open hole and run which he did on 2 of those.  It was very bland defense early in the game when you need to set the tone

 

We did actually get decent pressure on him - we just didn't finish or effect him enough with that pressure. I get what you are saying though, We tend to rely too much on the front 4 to win.

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, BleedBNG said:

 

Howell was working the right side of the field from a numbers perspective - he had a 2v3 to that side versus a 3v4 to the bottom. The play was likely designed to go to Turner as the #1 - they had been working on that a ton in the week apparently. And the defender who would have been on Dotson only came off when it was clear Howell was committed to the other side. it looks like Dotson was wide open, but he wasn't part of the play at that point, if Sam had worked that side the defender doesn't come off Dotson. The error was Sam forced the throw into coverage - he didn't have what he wanted.

[RVAskins]

6 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

We did actually get decent pressure on him - we just didn't finish or effect him enough with that pressure. I get what you are saying though, We tend to rely too much on the front 4 to win.

And we leave gaping holes for QB's to pick up 1st downs.

[NoCalMike]

Rushing 4 with no spy or at least a linebacker for containment on the run lanes up the middle is basically conceding a 1st down run by the QB in today's NFL.  Even the non "running QBs" are now athletic enough to take off up the middle when the openings are there.  

 

JDR relies on the front 4 almost too much.  Yes they are a good front 4, but the entire middle of the field is left exposed for a QB that can use his legs.  It's just asking to be exposed on those kinds of runs over and over again without extra help there.

[MartinC]

Just now, RVAskins said:

And we leave gaping holes for QB's to pick up 1st downs.

On the long run that Allen broke on the first 3rd and long, we were in man and there was literally no one in the second level on our defensive left side. When Allen took off he had about 30 yards of grass in front of him.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Dan T. said:

 

 

Nah.  At :03 - point oh three - of the clip, Bills CB Taron Johnson (#7) has left Dotson and committed to the middle of the field.  If Sam glances left we have a touchdown.

 

Terrel Barnard, the Bills LB who had a big game with an INT and 2 sacks, was quoted as saying they noticed on film that Sam doesn't go through his progressions so they were reading his eyes and jumping on throws. 

 

The clip above bears that out.

There’s no doubt going to be bad tape on Sam that aligns with what Barnard is saying.  
 

On the end zone play though, I’ve got to assume there is no throwing lane to Dotson.  Wylie gets worked and Sam likely thinks he’s getting hit but the defender gets his hand up.

 

Either way, he was never able to get comfortable - which is imperative for a guy in his 4th start.  Perhaps he missed guys all day and the all-22 will play that out.  It just didn’t feel or look like it on the broadcast.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[lovemaskins]

58 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

He spread the ball all over in Denver too...I think yesterday he was shell-shocked somewhat because he had no time. He's going thru some baptism by fire for sure...this is where the coaching needs to show up in film sessions. 

I also think he could use a taller WR to lean on some in the redzone...we have mostly short guys. 

That was where the coaching staff needed to show up and run the damn ball… quarterbacks best friends are a tight end and running game. Now that I think about it, I wonder whether he missed Logan yesterday…?

[NoVaSkins21]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

The coaches were ready though. They had a game plan. The players were not ready to execute it at all though. I am not going to blame the coaches except they could have run the ball more to take the heat off of Howell. That is on the coaches which has nothing to do with preparation though. 

I agree with the execution part, but things like not blitzing enough on defense or maybe putting in guys like Lucas or someone else who block better on the OL I would put squarely on the coaches.  There were no halftime adjustments either that I saw either.  IMO, it was as much on the coaches as it was the players.

[skinsfan66]

4 hours ago, method man said:

Dude got overpaid and got more than some better off ball LBs like Tranquill. Solid player but I’m good without him at that price. Guys like him unfortunately fit the types of players you let go in FA - Gibson, Samuel and Forrest all fit that mold

Better player than Barton, that's all that needs to be said here and would make more of an impact then Samuel, Gibson, Forrest.  Add logan Thomas to the list he sure fits that mold, over paid. 

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

This team doesn't have the personnel to play catch-up and it's unrealistic to expect the defense to pick up the slack. A good offense is a defense's best friend too, just as it is the other way around. Even the 2000 Ravens' defense would be hard-pressed to win a game with an offense as inept as ours looked yesterday. You have to be able to run the ball AND give Howell throws he can make to build his confidence...handing him a 23-0 deficit and telling him to out and win the game isn't a strategy!

 

I believe the record for QB sacks given up in a season is 104, and I heard on the radio that this team is on pace to give up 107.

 

LATE EDIT: I heard Howell was sacked again on his way to the bathroom at 2:26 AM this morning because he didn't turn on the light and mis-read the layout of the room.

Edited September 25, 2023 by BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen

[Dan T.]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There’s no doubt going to be bad tape on Sam that aligns with what Barnard is saying.  

 

Either way, he was never able to get comfortable - which is imperative for a guy in his 4th start.  Perhaps he missed guys all day and the all-22 will play that out.  It just didn’t feel or look like it on the broadcast.  

 

You are right in that it is only his 4th NFL start, for crissakes. He is going to figure it out.  He's got the arm, the athleticism, and the desire to get it done, IMO.  

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Jay on 106.7

 

In short, he mostly absolves Sam.   He didn't think he played well.  But he didn't see circumstances to help him succeed.  He watched the game back closely

 

A.  Bad protection

B.  Receivers aren't getting open.

 

He thinks they need to use motion more to disguise what they are going to do and put defenses off balance.

 

He saw the Bills being on top of what this offense wanted to do.

 

Jay wouldn't have left him in there to take a further beating especially once they were down by 30.   You worry about a QB taking too many sacks and hits might effect their psyche going forward where you start seeing pressure even if its not fully there ala David Carr years ago with the Texans.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Jay wouldn't have left him in there to take a further beating especially once they were down by 30. 

 

I would have left him in - I said so in the game thread. But not to take a beating.

 

I would have said to him "You are our guy, I believe in you and I'm going to have you finish what you started - but I'm going to protect you with play calls". Leaving him and still doing deep drops and taking time outs to get a chance to score 3 - thats what I have an issue with. We should have been running the ball and if we threw it should have been screen or quick game period.

15 minutes ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

This team doesn't have the personnel to play catch-up and it's unrealistic to expect the defense to pick up the slack.

 

We came from behind the first two weeks - from 18 points behind in week 2. We do have the personnel to come from behind - just not against a very good team.

[kingdaddy]

How many deep shots did Sam take yesterday? I only remember one and he connected with Curtis Samuel. 

[Warhead36]

You leave Howell in because ultimately he needs reps. If this were an established vet I'd have taken him out at like 23-0 let alone 37-0. But Howell is still ultimately a kid in need of more playing time to improve.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He saw the Bills being on top of what this offense wanted to do.

This is how the game felt to me. We had zero answers for what the Bills were doing on defense. 
 

As one of Sam’s most vocal supporters, I have never seen him play as awful as he played yesterday. And I have zero doubt that he’ll get over it quickly. He’ll be fine.

 

All wins are not the same and all losses are not the same either. This one felt like a season ending/regime changing defeat. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

This is how the game felt to me. We had zero answers for what the Bills were doing on defense. 
 

As one of Sam’s most vocal supporters, I have never seen him play as awful as he played yesterday. And I have zero doubt that he’ll get over it quickly. He’ll be fine.

 

All wins are not the same and all losses are not the same either. This one felt like a season ending/regime changing defeat. 

 

 

 

Agree.  Jay is far from a Howell homer so he's plenty objective.  But yeah his take from rewatching it and years playing QB and running offenses -- it was chess game that Sam couldn't win.  Guys weren't open.  The protection was bad.

 

On another note Terry and Dotson, don't have the numbers they normally do and I saw a stat that both have been among the worst in the league in seperating this season.  I am wondering if its a combination of 6-7 man protections where we don't have as many guys to keep the secondary busy coupled with the opponents having 7 in coverage.  @KDawg who actually runs defenses would know.  Am just guessing based on a numbers game.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  Jay is far from a Howell homer so he's plenty objective.  But yeah his take from rewatching it and years playing QB and running offenses -- it was chess game that Sam couldn't win.  Guys weren't open.  The protection was bad.

 

On another note Terry and Dotson, don't have the numbers they normally do and I saw a stat that both have been among the worst in the league in seperating this season.  I am wondering if its a combination of 6-7 man protections where we don't have as many guys to keep the secondary busy coupled with the opponents having 7 in coverage.  @KDawg who actually runs defenses would know.  Am just guessing based on a numbers games.

 

What about the play design? That as a major issue with Turner

[Chris 44]

23 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

How many deep shots did Sam take yesterday? I only remember one and he connected with Curtis Samuel. 

I seem to remember him hitting Terry down the left sideline early on.

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

I seem to remember him hitting Terry down the left sideline early on.

That was Samuels. Lovely throw. 

 

He hit Samuel again later on with another great throw into a tight window. Give him time and he has arm talent - he makes big boy NFL throws.

[dunfer]

43 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You leave Howell in because ultimately he needs reps. If this were an established vet I'd have taken him out at like 23-0 let alone 37-0. But Howell is still ultimately a kid in need of more playing time to improve.

You leave him in because hes the starter. Pulling him and throwing Jacoby in, just creates the same old useless qb drama. If he isnt hurt, Sam's the qb

[Veretax]

Going back to the Op I agree with KDawg.  This game was lost at the Game Plan stage, long before they took the field.

When you saw them get overly aggressive in a goaline situation, rather than Kick a field goal, they signaled that only 6 is going to be enough, and they basically abdicated any type of strategy that could have left Diggs and Allen on the bench for long periods of time.  That is the way Buffalo, and KC tend to play.

 

True, Sam had a bad game, he had some terrible reads (maybe terrible throws too).  We gave him no help or support.  Unless this game was thrown away to try things we thought would not fly in a closer game, we basically declared defeat when the Game Plan was assembled.  It seems some teams have PTSD against offenses like Buffalos and KC.   Maybe we need therapy for Ron and company.