Next Day Thread: Sam Howell Just Got Sacked Again! (Buffalo Edition)

[method man]

3 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

Holcombe is doing just fine with the Steelers, and that's all Bostic could do is stop the run.  Holcombe does a little of everything which Barton does none of as well. Should not let him walk is my thought too, So I disagree and agree with the poster who said we should have kept him. 

Dude got overpaid and got more than some better off ball LBs like Tranquill. Solid player but I’m good without him at that price. Guys like him unfortunately fit the types of players you let go in FA - Gibson, Samuel and Forrest all fit that mold

[Voice_of_Reason]

Something everybody needs to remember, Andy Reid, for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS and YEARS was criticized for not running the ball.  He was criticized for it in Philly and KC.  

 

The number of times the Eagles would lose, and McNabb would have whatever he had and they ran the ball ~10-12 times in the game was astounding.  Then the talking heads would all go crazy and say "Reid needs to run the ball to take pressure off of McNabb!"  

 

And you know, what?  He hasn't changed.  Not really.  He didn't run the ball more to protect a young McNabb, to protect a veteran in Smith, or a young (and untested at the time) Mahomes.  That's just never been his MO.  McNabb figured it out (eventually), Smith figured it out, and Mahomes figured it out.  Every now and then he'll go out there and smash the football down people's throats because he thinks it's the best game plan for a given game.  But that's the aberration, not the norm.  

 

He expects his QBs to make the right reads and throw the ball quickly.  That's the Any Reid way. You throw first, run when it's appropriate to run.  Soften them up with the pass, then gash them with the run.  Reid relied even more on the short pass to replace the run than even Bill Walsh, the Godfather of the WCO.  

 

EB is a VERY CLOSE Reid disciple.  It's pretty clear he has the exact same philosophy, and unless Uncle Ron dictates he wants EB to run the Scott Turner/Taylor Hallock offense from the last two years, he's not going to. 

 

I do expect them to change some things, but the overall philosophy of the offense is going to be pass first, run second.  

 

How does EB change what he's doing to protect Howell more?  The things I would try (and fully acknowledging EB has forgotten more about football in the last 30 seconds than I've ever known) :

 

1. Go no-huddle. Defenses get predictable and generally "conservative" when the offense goes no-huddle.  It blows my mind why more teams don't do this.  It doesn't mean hurry-up, just no huddle  Get to the line, EB can still talk to Howell, call the play there.

2. Vary the snap count.  Small thing, but it slows down the rush

3. Move the pocket on first down.  Roll Howell out, either direction, at least sometimes, so the pass rushers don't know exactly where he's going to be all the time.

4. More screens.  (I can't believe I'm saying this, because I have written a tome on how many times, especially in the Zorn era, we never stretched the field vertically, and it irritated me.)

5. Get out of shotgun from time to time.  PA works better, running works better, and you can mix things up.

6. Don't be afraid to run in known passing situations.  Sometimes it will look REALLY ugly and fans will go "why the hell did you do that?!"  But a run in a known passing situation might be better than dropping Howell back against a good rush. 

 

All of those things are easy.  They can't do anything about the personnel they have. They made that bed, they have to sleep in it.  

 

What I would NOT do, and I don't think they will (unless Ron demands it) is call a whole bunch of running plays on early downs in the first half. If they can complete a pass on first down, then a run on second is great.  Some runs on first down are good.  But Turner called something like 70% run on first down in the first half.  That can't happen.  That's not how you do modern offense.

 

So far, I like EB on the whole.  I think he completely changed the mentality and attention to detail of the team.  Ron's lollygagging around training camp went out the window.  EB's decisive, and holds players accountable.

 

I also like the offense.  I've ALWAYS liked Reid's offense.  Reid is known as one of the most creative, forward thinking offensive minds in the history of the NFL.  He's the winningest coach for 2 different franchises.  If EB can bring 80% of that, it's still great.   

 

I do think there will be growing pains with a new OC and a 23 year old QB who just completed his 4th start.  

 

One other thing, and Keim pointed this out and Nicki J. wrote about it in the post: there is now a book on Howell.  Defenses know what causes him to hold the ball, and the Bills did a bunch of it on Sunday.  Howell hasn't seen any of it before, so he wasn't trusting his eyes.

 

Keim pointed out on one of the sacks, Howell held the ball for 2.9 seconds (he timed it) and if he had gotten to his checkdown a beat earlier, Dotson was open.  But he was late to it.

 

I think that happened a bunch.  It was actually more obvious to me live than on TV. 

 

Remember how the pass protection was absolutely horrendous in 2014/2015 per-season when Robert was playing, and then magically looked miles better when Kirk took over?  What was the difference?  Kirk got the ball out of his hands fast.  

 

I'm absolutely, in no way at all going to put all of the issues at Howell's feet.  Keim didn't either.  I think it's a group effort.  I think EB needs to schematically help him, the OL is a problem, and Howell doesn't do a great job recognizing blitzes and setting protection.  Howell also has to know when he's hot, and get the ball out.  Everything has to work, or nothing works at all.  

 

For reasons which I can't explain, I have a funny feeling it's going to look a lot better in Philly.  I don't know why.  It shouldn't.  That's counter intuitive.  And I could be VERY VERY wrong.  But I just feel like it's going to be a lot better. 

[NickyJ]

I genuinely don't understand the frustration with the defense. One of the top 5 QBs in the NFL when he's at his best was at his best and got held to 16 points for the majority of a game that we were scoreless in. Why are crying about yards? Did the NFL update its points scoring to include yards gained?

 

Jay Gruden was a killer in 2016 when we marched up and down the fields with ease. We didn't score points. Yards gained are a participation trophy. Points scored are what mattered. And the defense gave the offense 3 whole quarters to put ANYTHING on the board to keep up with a team who wins shootouts.

[steve09ru]

1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

I genuinely don't understand the frustration with the defense. One of the top 5 QBs in the NFL when he's at his best was at his best and got held to 16 points for the majority of a game that we were scoreless in. Why are crying about yards? Did the NFL update its points scoring to include yards gained?

 

Jay Gruden was a killer in 2016 when we marched up and down the fields with ease. We didn't score points. Yards gained are a participation trophy. Points scored are what mattered. And the defense gave the offense 3 whole quarters to put ANYTHING on the board to keep up with a team who wins shootouts.

My only fault on the defense was giving up 4 3rd and longs on the first 2 drives which instead of forcing punts ended with 10 points.  Stop them and we don’t kill our drives then we’re leading going into the half

[Koolblue13]

38 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This is not good, either.

 

It's a shame our coaching staff didn't know this.

[NoVaSkins21]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

It's a shame our coaching staff didn't know this.

Not a shock that they were out-coached again vs a superior opponent and of course it clearly showed

[Warhead36]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Something everybody needs to remember, Andy Reid, for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS and YEARS was criticized for not running the ball.  He was criticized for it in Philly and KC.  

 

The number of times the Eagles would lose, and McNabb would have whatever he had and they ran the ball ~10-12 times in the game was astounding.  Then the talking heads would all go crazy and say "Reid needs to run the ball to take pressure off of McNabb!"  

 

And you know, what?  He hasn't changed.  Not really.  He didn't run the ball more to protect a young McNabb, to protect a veteran in Smith, or a young (and untested at the time) Mahomes.  That's just never been his MO.  McNabb figured it out (eventually), Smith figured it out, and Mahomes figured it out.  Every now and then he'll go out there and smash the football down people's throats because he thinks it's the best game plan for a given game.  But that's the aberration, not the norm.  

 

He expects his QBs to make the right reads and throw the ball quickly.  That's the Any Reid way. You throw first, run when it's appropriate to run.  Soften them up with the pass, then gash them with the run.  Reid relied even more on the short pass to replace the run than even Bill Walsh, the Godfather of the WCO.  

 

EB is a VERY CLOSE Reid disciple.  It's pretty clear he has the exact same philosophy, and unless Uncle Ron dictates he wants EB to run the Scott Turner/Taylor Hallock offense from the last two years, he's not going to. 

 

I do expect them to change some things, but the overall philosophy of the offense is going to be pass first, run second.  

 

How does EB change what he's doing to protect Howell more?  The things I would try (and fully acknowledging EB has forgotten more about football in the last 30 seconds than I've ever known) :

 

1. Go no-huddle. Defenses get predictable and generally "conservative" when the offense goes no-huddle.  It blows my mind why more teams don't do this.  It doesn't mean hurry-up, just no huddle  Get to the line, EB can still talk to Howell, call the play there.

2. Vary the snap count.  Small thing, but it slows down the rush

3. Move the pocket on first down.  Roll Howell out, either direction, at least sometimes, so the pass rushers don't know exactly where he's going to be all the time.

4. More screens.  (I can't believe I'm saying this, because I have written a tome on how many times, especially in the Zorn era, we never stretched the field vertically, and it irritated me.)

5. Get out of shotgun from time to time.  PA works better, running works better, and you can mix things up.

6. Don't be afraid to run in known passing situations.  Sometimes it will look REALLY ugly and fans will go "why the hell did you do that?!"  But a run in a known passing situation might be better than dropping Howell back against a good rush. 

 

All of those things are easy.  They can't do anything about the personnel they have. They made that bed, they have to sleep in it.  

 

What I would NOT do, and I don't think they will (unless Ron demands it) is call a whole bunch of running plays on early downs in the first half. If they can complete a pass on first down, then a run on second is great.  Some runs on first down are good.  But Turner called something like 70% run on first down in the first half.  That can't happen.  That's not how you do modern offense.

 

So far, I like EB on the whole.  I think he completely changed the mentality and attention to detail of the team.  Ron's lollygagging around training camp went out the window.  EB's decisive, and holds players accountable.

 

I also like the offense.  I've ALWAYS liked Reid's offense.  Reid is known as one of the most creative, forward thinking offensive minds in the history of the NFL.  He's the winningest coach for 2 different franchises.  If EB can bring 80% of that, it's still great.   

 

I do think there will be growing pains with a new OC and a 23 year old QB who just completed his 4th start.  

 

One other thing, and Keim pointed this out and Nicki J. wrote about it in the post: there is now a book on Howell.  Defenses know what causes him to hold the ball, and the Bills did a bunch of it on Sunday.  Howell hasn't seen any of it before, so he wasn't trusting his eyes.

 

Keim pointed out on one of the sacks, Howell held the ball for 2.9 seconds (he timed it) and if he had gotten to his checkdown a beat earlier, Dotson was open.  But he was late to it.

 

I think that happened a bunch.  It was actually more obvious to me live than on TV. 

 

Remember how the pass protection was absolutely horrendous in 2014/2015 per-season when Robert was playing, and then magically looked miles better when Kirk took over?  What was the difference?  Kirk got the ball out of his hands fast.  

 

I'm absolutely, in no way at all going to put all of the issues at Howell's feet.  Keim didn't either.  I think it's a group effort.  I think EB needs to schematically help him, the OL is a problem, and Howell doesn't do a great job recognizing blitzes and setting protection.  Howell also has to know when he's hot, and get the ball out.  Everything has to work, or nothing works at all.  

 

For reasons which I can't explain, I have a funny feeling it's going to look a lot better in Philly.  I don't know why.  It shouldn't.  That's counter intuitive.  And I could be VERY VERY wrong.  But I just feel like it's going to be a lot better. 

This is a reasonable take and solution.

 

Reid pushes his QB into pass first right from the get go and it expedites their development. I think EB is trying the same with Howell. We have the WR talent to make it work, but I just don't think the OL is going to hold up.

[Koolblue13]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Something everybody needs to remember, Andy Reid, for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS and YEARS was criticized for not running the ball.  He was criticized for it in Philly and KC.  

 

The number of times the Eagles would lose, and McNabb would have whatever he had and they ran the ball ~10-12 times in the game was astounding.  Then the talking heads would all go crazy and say "Reid needs to run the ball to take pressure off of McNabb!"  

 

And you know, what?  He hasn't changed.  Not really.  He didn't run the ball more to protect a young McNabb, to protect a veteran in Smith, or a young (and untested at the time) Mahomes.  That's just never been his MO.  McNabb figured it out (eventually), Smith figured it out, and Mahomes figured it out.  Every now and then he'll go out there and smash the football down people's throats because he thinks it's the best game plan for a given game.  But that's the aberration, not the norm.  

 

He expects his QBs to make the right reads and throw the ball quickly.  That's the Any Reid way. You throw first, run when it's appropriate to run.  Soften them up with the pass, then gash them with the run.  Reid relied even more on the short pass to replace the run than even Bill Walsh, the Godfather of the WCO.  

 

EB is a VERY CLOSE Reid disciple.  It's pretty clear he has the exact same philosophy, and unless Uncle Ron dictates he wants EB to run the Scott Turner/Taylor Hallock offense from the last two years, he's not going to. 

 

I do expect them to change some things, but the overall philosophy of the offense is going to be pass first, run second.  

 

How does EB change what he's doing to protect Howell more?  The things I would try (and fully acknowledging EB has forgotten more about football in the last 30 seconds than I've ever known) :

 

1. Go no-huddle. Defenses get predictable and generally "conservative" when the offense goes no-huddle.  It blows my mind why more teams don't do this.  It doesn't mean hurry-up, just no huddle  Get to the line, EB can still talk to Howell, call the play there.

2. Vary the snap count.  Small thing, but it slows down the rush

3. Move the pocket on first down.  Roll Howell out, either direction, at least sometimes, so the pass rushers don't know exactly where he's going to be all the time.

4. More screens.  (I can't believe I'm saying this, because I have written a tome on how many times, especially in the Zorn era, we never stretched the field vertically, and it irritated me.)

5. Get out of shotgun from time to time.  PA works better, running works better, and you can mix things up.

6. Don't be afraid to run in known passing situations.  Sometimes it will look REALLY ugly and fans will go "why the hell did you do that?!"  But a run in a known passing situation might be better than dropping Howell back against a good rush. 

 

All of those things are easy.  They can't do anything about the personnel they have. They made that bed, they have to sleep in it.  

 

What I would NOT do, and I don't think they will (unless Ron demands it) is call a whole bunch of running plays on early downs in the first half. If they can complete a pass on first down, then a run on second is great.  Some runs on first down are good.  But Turner called something like 70% run on first down in the first half.  That can't happen.  That's not how you do modern offense.

 

So far, I like EB on the whole.  I think he completely changed the mentality and attention to detail of the team.  Ron's lollygagging around training camp went out the window.  EB's decisive, and holds players accountable.

 

I also like the offense.  I've ALWAYS liked Reid's offense.  Reid is known as one of the most creative, forward thinking offensive minds in the history of the NFL.  He's the winningest coach for 2 different franchises.  If EB can bring 80% of that, it's still great.   

 

I do think there will be growing pains with a new OC and a 23 year old QB who just completed his 4th start.  

 

One other thing, and Keim pointed this out and Nicki J. wrote about it in the post: there is now a book on Howell.  Defenses know what causes him to hold the ball, and the Bills did a bunch of it on Sunday.  Howell hasn't seen any of it before, so he wasn't trusting his eyes.

 

Keim pointed out on one of the sacks, Howell held the ball for 2.9 seconds (he timed it) and if he had gotten to his checkdown a beat earlier, Dotson was open.  But he was late to it.

 

I think that happened a bunch.  It was actually more obvious to me live than on TV. 

 

Remember how the pass protection was absolutely horrendous in 2014/2015 per-season when Robert was playing, and then magically looked miles better when Kirk took over?  What was the difference?  Kirk got the ball out of his hands fast.  

 

I'm absolutely, in no way at all going to put all of the issues at Howell's feet.  Keim didn't either.  I think it's a group effort.  I think EB needs to schematically help him, the OL is a problem, and Howell doesn't do a great job recognizing blitzes and setting protection.  Howell also has to know when he's hot, and get the ball out.  Everything has to work, or nothing works at all.  

 

For reasons which I can't explain, I have a funny feeling it's going to look a lot better in Philly.  I don't know why.  It shouldn't.  That's counter intuitive.  And I could be VERY VERY wrong.  But I just feel like it's going to be a lot better. 

There is a grand canyon sized void between the Turner/Heini run game offense and throwing 4-1 when your QB is getting mauled and has been clearly taken out of the game.

 

Nobody is even saying to be a run first team.

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

It's a shame our coaching staff didn't know this.

They know, they just can't scheme their way out of it. It's also harder to do when you don't have a lead and are playing catch-up all day.

[Warhead36]

10 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

My only fault on the defense was giving up 4 3rd and longs on the first 2 drives which instead of forcing punts ended with 10 points.  Stop them and we don’t kill our drives then we’re leading going into the half

Agreed. The 3rd down defense sucked. The defense the rest of the time was fairly reasonable when factoring in the opponent.

 

Josh Allen when he's on form is a completely different universe from Josh Dobbs and a washed up Russel Wilson.

[stryker290]

Bright side folks, Dan Snyder is gone.

[profusion]

My impression of the Andy Reid offense is that it relies heavily on short, quick passes and then puts the onus on the receivers/backs to get YAC. Essentially, short passes are a functional equivalent of the running game and don't require the best OL of all time to make it happen. It's also historically relied heavily on mobile QBs.

 

In that kind of offense, Gibson should be a deadly weapon and Howell's accuracy and mobility should be able to make it work.

 

What the Commanders are doing looks different. They don't use Howell's mobility as much, and the whole thing just seems slower and more predictable. It could be that the lack of a great pass-catching TE is hampering them more than the OL is if the goal is to use that offense.

[NickyJ]

7 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

My only fault on the defense was giving up 4 3rd and longs on the first 2 drives which instead of forcing punts ended with 10 points.  Stop them and we don’t kill our drives then we’re leading going into the half

It was frustrating to watch, but the end results were perfectly fine. If our offense had scored a single touchdown or even a field goal, the first quarter would have been a 1 score game. To say that we were 1 score behind Josh Allen would be as good as I could have expected, and I did expect to lose to a good team like them. But we lost for the wrong reason. The offense didn't play. At all. The defense did its job. The offense and its 5 turnovers didn't.

[Ball Security]

I’ve had enough of this thread. EB this, Sam Howell that. OL this, Chase Young that. We had no missed FGs or PATs! Look out league, The Cheeseman is back, baby!

[steve09ru]

6 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It was frustrating to watch, but the end results were perfectly fine. If our offense had scored a single touchdown or even a field goal, the first quarter would have been a 1 score game. To say that we were 1 score behind Josh Allen would be as good as I could have expected, and I did expect to lose to a good team like them. But we lost for the wrong reason. The offense didn't play. At all. The defense did its job. The offense and its 5 turnovers didn't.

Direct correlation though as a result of early points.  We had a legit chance to be up 10-0 instead of down 10-0. 20 point swing by not stopping 3rd and longs and then stalling drives.  That dictated what we did and how we control the game.

 

edit to add: offense was **** but moved the ball early and didn’t look bad until they were behind and forced.  Assumption is offense would have looked a little different being up 10-0 vs down 10-0

Edited September 25, 2023 by steve09ru

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

33 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

5. Get out of shotgun from time to time.  PA works better, running works better, and you can mix things up.

So much this.

[skinny21]

37 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I genuinely don't understand the frustration with the defense. One of the top 5 QBs in the NFL when he's at his best was at his best and got held to 16 points for the majority of a game that we were scoreless in. Why are crying about yards? Did the NFL update its points scoring to include yards gained?

 

Jay Gruden was a killer in 2016 when we marched up and down the fields with ease. We didn't score points. Yards gained are a participation trophy. Points scored are what mattered. And the defense gave the offense 3 whole quarters to put ANYTHING on the board to keep up with a team who wins shootouts.

And multiple turnovers/short fields…

[mhd24]

40 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Agreed. The 3rd down defense sucked. The defense the rest of the time was fairly reasonable when factoring in the opponent.

 

Josh Allen when he's on form is a completely different universe from Josh Dobbs and a washed up Russel Wilson.

Disagree.  Allen just made out-of-this world throws on those 3rd & longs.  Maybe one or 2 other QBs make those throws.  You can't do anything when he's that on.

[Dan T.]

Sam's field of vision has to widen out.

 

 

[Riggo#44]

33 minutes ago, stryker290 said:

Bright side folks, Dan Snyder is gone.

 

I think this has been overlooked in yesterday's debacle. I am less angry over this loss than most because it isn't about this year. It's about next year, and 2-3 years down the road: a real future. This team is on Ron Rivera, but not entirely. I don't have the same vitriol the RonBots have, even though I think everyone is gone after this year. He can only get who he can get. We've read countless articles about how agents steer their players away from here because, from top to bottom, this was a ****hole destination. He's still on the hook, though, for Wylie. That guy sucks.

 

Having Snyder out means all things are now possible. We are now in position for top GM candidates. Top coaching candidates. Ben Johnson might actually want to coach here. We can now poach from the best Front Offices in the league and actually lure good, smart football people. We don't have to settle for mediocre and pretend they are the tippy top of the A-list. With all credit to Rivera for coming here and putting out the blazing inferno of Dan Snyder at his best/worst, we can now do better.

 

A bit of optimism in the muck and mire. Now, please, continue to light things on fire and smash ****.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Read progression aside, that read was never good.

[Dan T.]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Read progression aside, that read was never good.

 

As reads go, that was damn near illiterate.

[JCB]

That's so brutal.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Running it back and slowing it down, the clip is a bit disingenuous as the ball is already out.  Defenders are reading Sam and he’s likely sacked if he doesn’t let that go.

[Skinsinparadise]