The Skins Can't Win With These Coaches

[thebeermonkey]

Any other team would have fired their ass last year. They are a shambles, an absolute disgrace. They learn nothing, change nothing. 

 

If Dallas unleashes they have to go. have to.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He couldn't run it in Cincy either, really.  

 

The one time he's had a good running game was last year and it literally took a HOF running back avoiding 23 defenders in the backfield every play to make it happen. 

Sorry, I forgot one part:  who he then benched for ... reasons.  

[volsmet]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lol, yeah that's partly why i am in no panic, i don't think they are winning this year in all likelihood so get a high draft pick.  I feel like i am wasting my time debating Jay with people -- I don't see him back in 2020 -- so to me its wasted energy but i'll engage to amuse myself and talk football.

 

I think the reboot is coming in 2020, jay a given to be part of the exodus, the mystery is who else is going if anyone and who's coming?  

 

I don't dislike Jay the way some here do but even if i did I wouldn't sweat it one way or another.  

 

I don’t dislike Jay, I actually like him a lot as a guy, but he hasn’t proven he can lead in whatever circumstances he’s in presently ... perhaps it’s not possible. 

 

I think Jay will be asked back if Haskins plays well under his offensive staff to end the season. Jay may be done with this nonsense though. 

[SkinsFTW]

Dude can't buy a win so instead he invests your fan dollars in this:

 

 

Maybe he's finally starting to get it and might eventually sell the team...

 

Naa, who am I kidding.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Oh, I agree.  It's a big problem.  And they need to fix it.  However, the best defense is a good offense. And while it was good yesterday, I think they should try to be even b

Norv was an awful head coach.  He blew leads, squandered leads, blew close games, the works.  Gibbs was conservative to a fault his second time back.  But he is also the only coach since he retired the first time to take the team to the playoffs twice.  So, there's something to that.  

 

Shanny only had one year really where they were competitive.  In 2012, I don't recall any blown leads. I know they blew a lead in the Texans game in 2010, but that had more to do with Hazlett being an idiot and McNabb missing people than any strategic decision.  (I was at that game.  I remember it well.)  I don't really remember anything from 2011 because it was irrelevant from the get-go.  2013 was also irrelevant from the get-go, and I don't think they had many leads the entire year to squander.

 

Your memory fails you.  This was 2009, and Zorn was the HC.  I took my girlfriend, who's a huge Saints fan, to the game.  I had season tickets.  (I was stupid.)  My girlfriend, who is now my wife (who I love dearly), was utterly pissed off and wanted to leave the game early. The Saints were undefeated and the 'Skins were coached by Jim Zorn.  

 

 

I didn't bother to look it up, but I recall the feeling and that was my main point which is this team blows leads and it goes back before Jay. As for getting the year wrong way back then sorry about that but it meant nothing to my point.  I looked up just now two seasons for Shanny and they blew plenty of leads, not all of them were egregious cases but some of them were, depended on the game.  By my count they blew 8 games those 2 seasons where they had a lead in the 2nd half, some really flagrant ones, some not so much where they had small leads.   

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Something has to change the culture.  McVay did it quickly with the Rams.  Gibbs II just never quite caught up to the "modern" game.  He was close.  And, he go the team to the playoffs twice.  But after 12 years out, he never quite caught on, and his "personnel guy" was a complete boob.  

 

Regardless of Bruce stays or goes, somebody has to change as much of the culture from a coaching perspective as they can. They won't be able to solve the "above the line" problems with Bruce and Dan" but they have to solve the "below the line" problems.  

 

 

I think you need both though.  I liked McVay before it was cool.   I am pretty sure I said it on a thread -- I know for sure I told some of my football friends that he'd be a great coach.  Cooley would talk about it, Paulsen, too.  I don't think McVay though would be the same under Bruce-Dan.   But I do agree he's a better coach than Jay so he'd bring some improvement. 

 

I really have grave doubts that Dan can attract a high caliber coach here anymore and I'd double down on that if Bruce is here because he's cheap and nepotism driven.    So I think it's likely O'Connell or bust.  I like his profile.  But I'd wish he had more experience actually running a segment of the team before becoming HC.  But maybe beggars can't be choosers.

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I think you're right B is more likely than A.  However, if I was Dan, I would ask Bruce why in the hell he hired and retained Jay if he didn't think Jay was the right guy.  After 5+ years, Bruce  has to own that decision, if you ask me.  And at this point, if I was Dan, the two are tied together.  I'm not saying that's how it will play out.  But if Bruce hired and supported Jay, and Bruce is responsible for the roster, and they are 5-11, either the roster sucks, the coaches suck, or some combination of both.  And "el presidente" is in charge of all of it.  It is VERY different than when Dan hired Shanahan, who then told Dan to hire Bruce, which he did first, so Bruce could say they hired Shanahan.  But make no mistake.  DAN hired Shanahan.  DAN hired Bruce. So Dan couldn't really hold Bruce responsible for Shanahan.  

 

Dan DID NOT hire Jay Gruden.  Sure, he might like Jay.  Probably does.  Probably likes that he goes along with the plan and doesn't make waves.  Probably likes him as a person.  However, unless he thinks the entire problem is the roster and Bruce, it's extremely unlikely Dan fires Bruce and retains Jay.  

 

 

I agree with some of this in theory.  But I wonder how logical Dan is.   Reading that recent WP article (and its not the first place where I've seen that narrative) about how Dan-Bruce cap off the days at Redskins Park having drinks together, etc...makes me wonder if Bruce knows how to push the right buttons with Dan and is teflon with him.   

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Where I think we disagree is I think you can evaluate and both complement/criticize Jay on his own merits, and that a lot of that is somewhere between "meh" and "ick."  Though there is some that is pretty good.  Again, I had virtually no problem with the play calling yesterday minus they ran too much on first down.  However, the AP decision and the complete collapse on the defense in the second half is troubling.  And while Manusky is the defensive coordinator, Jay is the Head Coach who promoted him to DC 2 years ago, and he is ultimately responsible. (Same argument for Bruce/Jay.  Bruce hired him, he's responsible.) 

 

CAVEAT: If we find out that Bruce hired Manusky and Jay was forced to deal with him, then I absolve Jay from all defensive responsibility.  Same with Bruce and Barry. I haven't heard that. But if we find that out, then that would entirely change my position on Jay as it relates to the defense.  

 

We don't disagree on that.  I agree you can focus on different variables.  I do think that the variables interlink though.    I'll use Desean as an example since its topical.   I've read multiple times that Jay was frustrated that they let him go.  Desean I think was so perfect for Jay's offense as to opening up the underneath stuff.  Instead he had to contend with Pryor and Quick and inferior replacements.   We heard from Doug that Jay had a turn key 4000 yard QB friendly offense back then.  It almost came off to me that the FO was overconfident that Jay can just make lemonade out of any lemons thrown his way.

 

I've actually dissected Jay's play calling extensively.  I did a long assessment on a thread over a year ago using Sharp's metrics.  I listened and even took notes to Cooley's run down of Jay's play calling last year.  And in short, I like aspects of Jay's play calling and don't like other aspects of it.   But I do think it's equally important to give Jay the chess pieces he needs to make his offense excel.    And my main point on that front is Jay has some good attributes, he's not some moron struggling to put together a game plan.  By no means am I married to Jay as a coach or play caller but I think some take their criticism too far and some of it is outright wrong which I've showed in clips from time to time. 

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And while Manusky is the defensive coordinator, Jay is the Head Coach who promoted him to DC 2 years ago, and he is ultimately responsible. (Same argument for Bruce/Jay.  Bruce hired him, he's responsible.) 

 

CAVEAT: If we find out that Bruce hired Manusky and Jay was forced to deal with him, then I absolve Jay from all defensive responsibility.  Same with Bruce and Barry. I haven't heard that. But if we find that out, then that would entirely change my position on Jay as it relates to the defense.  

 

Don't know one way or another.  I do know though they had bigger name D coordinators who they requested to interview including Wade Phillips for a 2nd time before landing on Manusky.   I recall Brewer saying in a radio segment back then that he heard they wanted to add a defensive coordinator with a name and a good resume.   But it didn't happen.  Clearly they toyed with it again this off season but it didn't happen again.  

 

I've heard that with Bruce here they've gotten cheap as for paying people.  I recall Laconfora saying back when the Redskins were considering adding a personnel guy post Scot that asking around the league he discovered two things about how things changed under Bruce.

 

A.  Not only do the Redskins don't pay on the high end for the most part, they pay less than the standard team now so why would they want to go there and deal with the drama and also get paid less to do it.

 

B.  Bruce has added a double trouble component to the FO.  In the past you had to deal with just Dan and his machinations but now you got Bruce too who on some fronts is a major pain in the butt in his own way.  So it's made jobs there a bigger headache.

 

I recall the narrative about them wanting to promote Pleasant to run the secondary but they lost him to the Rams.  I recall beat guys saying then Pleasant was upset that he was low balled and the Rams were willing to pay him more.   So he went to the Rams for the better payday,

 

So why am I fixated on Bruce in the context of a HC?  Part of it is because with him in the mix unless it's O'Connell or bust, I think it's very much in play that the next HC is inferior to Jay.  The days where Dan just outbids the league for his targeted coaches might be over among other things with Bruce at the helm.  

[skins island connection]

Its been said a lot, but Gruden is the type of coach who wants to be liked by his players. Now, I'm sure ALL coaches would not mind that, but the best way to get players to like him is for him to be tough on them, get them dedicated and ready to run through a wall for him. I feel that the players may not feel good about some of the play calling that goes on but they don't wanna step up and say anything for fear of retaliation.

 

Gruden has been the same way for years; he under-achieved in Cincy, and it was a head scratcher for me as to why they got him.

 

I'll catch some flack but I don't give 2 rats; but a HC who can scheme a good running game was Mike Shanahan. For whatever the reasons why it didn't work out, so be it, but the guy knew how to get the most out of the running game, and had the whole Griffin thing not gone sour, even with Griffin not playing, I feel that he would have built on the aerial game and would have gotten them into the playoffs at least a few times and probably deep into them. But that issue came to a head; guess who was behind it? Bruce Allen with Dan Snyder's arm up his ass.

 

Manusky, as far as I'm concerned, is toast. He was a failure and never did anything noteworthy anywhere, and now he's here continuing his streak. Yesterday's defensive flop in the 2nd half proved it. We see every other team in the league blitz and get players to the QB; but our guys seem to run straight into a group of entangled players trying to fight their way through them to get to the QB; by that time the QB had already thrown the ball and was looking at his arm pad for the next play.

 

If SnyderAllen { I call them that because Bruce's head is so far up Dan's butt I don't know where one stops and the other starts } had an ounce of intelligence this problem could have been resolved years ago when Gregg Williams was free. HE knew how to scheme and get the most out of his players. Was he perfect? No, but he wouldn't have choked like Manusky did...

[BleedBNG]

Kind of telling, and in a way I believe him. Of course when we're usually behind at halftime, they don't do much so I don't know. The coaches have to adjust, but ALSO plant it in their minds that the game is still NOT over yet.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/desean-jackson-revealed-major-redskins-problem-and-it-wasnt-defense?fbclid=IwAR03XIj3DAsuuwCvSlV8r8KGrNCeGAYFJWLLmAqSZc-dtx1J8uCx41GGRsw

[NoCalMike]

Gibbs II era's flaw to me was that he was here to win in the moment with as many vets as he could assemble and then bounce.  He managed to get a couple playoff appearances out of it, but I don't think his heart was into the process as much as he thought it might have been when he first agreed to come back.

 

As far as McVay goes, I was sitting in the near empty stands telling any Rams fan who would listen that I think they will thrive with McVay if was given the time to build the team.  Little did I know it would happen so quick.  Since I was in Skins gear they were asking me a lot of questions. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

I don’t dislike Jay, I actually like him a lot as a guy, but he hasn’t proven he can lead in whatever circumstances he’s in presently ... perhaps it’s not possible. 

 

I think Jay will be asked back if Haskins plays well under his offensive staff to end the season. Jay may be done with this nonsense though. 

 

Liking Jay personally is a big reason why I don't mind getting saddled with defending him.  If this was the draft thread i wouldn't be pushing Jay as a prospect.  He wouldn't be one of my guys so to speak.  But if someone killed him, I'd defend him.  That's what I typically do on his behalf.  I don't think the dude is a terrible coach.  I do think he has some good attributes and some bad ones.  

 

I feel a bit bad for him because he has more on his plate as to overcoming dysfunction than the standard coach.  And like you I am a fanatic about college drafting, and I do buy the hype that Jay (son of a scout, just like Kyle) is really good at scouting college players.   And has become Kyle right hand arm so to speak. 

 

I don't think it's crazy to have Jay help develop Haskins, give O'Connell another season or two of experience and then he takes over.   Conversely, I would love it if a Lincoln Riley type came here and took the reins but i just don't see that ever happening under the current FO structure.  You'd need a Ballard type in charge who the league respects and then you can maybe attract said stud coach.

 

IMO (unless its O'Connell) the idea that a Lincoln Riley type would come here and take a job under Bruce is laughable.  It's to me actually ridiculous.   If Bruce remains I think its just as likely that they are pulling the next crop of coaches from whomever is left from the Tampa mafia -- Raheem Morris or somebody like that.  It's why I can't divorce this decision away from Bruce.  But regardless, I think Jay has almost no shot of returning if they have a losing season.  So a loss wouldn't bother me at all if I were feeling excited about the next coach whomever that is. 

 

As for Jay being done with the nonsense I think there is something to that.  I've heard now 4 different beat guys who said today that Jay has no beef with Peterson (and that he actually likes him) and making him inactive is very likely driven by making a statement to the FO as to roster decisions.  Multiple beat guys also said this off season that Jay was upset about how they handled FA.  Also that his relationship with Bruce isn't as strong as it once was.   And that now he has a I don't give a hoot attitude about the season from the perspective that he doesn't care if he's fired because he sees some upside to escaping the zoo so to speak.  It could be all smoke.  But that's a lot of smoke from a lot of different directions so there might be something to it. 

 

I suspect this drama this week will have more chapters to come. 

[BoycottEuphemisticFans]

I agree with OP.  I like Jay Gruden personally and wish he were better but he's not.  And the DC is not getting it done and if it continues this way, I bet he gets fired in season and it could come very early, as in like no more than 3 weeks from now if it continues like this.  But, with a consistently bad football team (going 7-9 or 8-8 every year is bad in my book) there's usually more than 1 problem.  It's not just coaches.   From yesterday, I look at Ryan Kerrigan, Ioannodis and Sweat.  Where were they?  Pass rushers got a great job, man.  They get all the glory when they make plays, but when they're invisible, they are invisible to criticism, too. (as compared to coaches, kickers, punters or the QB or people who touch the ball often.)  Kerrigan gets paid what? 14 million bucks a year?  Almost a million bucks a game!  He did nothing yesterday.  Nothing.

[clskinsfan]

It is just time. Jay is probably an average to midling head coach. And his teams have been just that. Average at best. It is time to blow it up and let a young offensive mind mold Haskins. 

[BayouBrave86]

Instead of easing Guice back in, he throws him to the wolves while pissing off and benching our best offensive player from last year. Absolutely brilliant. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, BoycottEuphemisticFans said:

I like Jay Gruden personally

You know him personally?

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

  I've heard now 4 different beat guys who said today that Jay has no beef with Peterson (and that he actually likes him) and making him inactive is very likely driven by making a statement to the FO as to roster decisions. 

But in this case the FO was probably right not to cut Peterson because a. he’s probably the best back on the team, b. Guice is coming off an injury and has never played a regular season game, c. He is a locker room leader, hard worker and a good example, and (most importantly) d. If something happened to Guice, you don’t want Perine to be the guy going in. Or Byron Marshall for that matter.  

 

The FO does get some stuff right amid the chaos and stupidity, and this seems to be one of them.  

 

This just isn’t a good look for Jay.  And the Guice injury makes it look worse....

 

[Brokenstriker]

if you need to sit a running back to compensate for anything else ... sit Thompson ... he doesn't play teams and he's not a back-up primary running back.  We have 4 guys ... 2 primary backs and 2 specialty guys ... why on earth would you risk not having an alternate primary back available ... sadly the answer is Gruden has a man-crush on Thompson despite the fact that Thompson isn't a between the tackles runner ... I mean sure he'll try to but come on coach ... try the smelling salts and have a gatoraid or something for pete's sake

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, Brokenstriker said:

if you need to sit a running back to compensate for anything else ... sit Thompson ... he doesn't play teams and he's not a back-up primary running back.  We have 4 guys ... 2 primary backs and 2 specialty guys ... why on earth would you risk not having an alternate primary back available ... sadly the answer is Gruden has a man-crush on Thompson despite the fact that Thompson isn't a between the tackles runner ... I mean sure he'll try to but come on coach ... try the smelling salts and have a gatoraid or something for pete's sake

Thompson is key on 3rd downs.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Didn't see the game ( They had it on Fox and switched to the RAMS as the last second) but sure sounds like Manusky and his Frickin PREVENT Defense again...no blitzing right....soft zone..no bump at LOS...why can't you press Jackson at the LOS..the dude is 2 inches tall...geez

Man, I liked him as a player...but his D sucks. Give me Rex, Give me a chipmonk..just get rid of Manusky. Anybody interview him?

 

Glad I did other stuff Sunday....wake me when we get a new DC

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Haslett, Barry, Manusky.  Woohoo!

[dyst]

Whether they keep Jay or remove him. They will screw it up. This team is always too late to the party.

 

They screwed up the Kirk situation. They screwed up the Trent situation. They screwed up the Peterson situation.

 

They cut Swearinger when they could have traded him. Guys like Crowder and Preston had value around the league and instead of trading them a year earlier, they let them go for nothing (oh I guess compensatory picks :/)

 

The Jay situation will be no different. By the time they let him go, it will be during a weak poole of coaching candidates. Jay should have been gone 2 years ago when so many of us could see it. Of course we missed out on McVay because of it.

[BoycottEuphemisticFans]

i know everyone wants Manusky gone and Gruden gone and I understand that.  But as much attention should be given to the fact that they played an eventual SuperBowl contender on Sunday in the Eagles.  Its not Manusky's fault that he is employed by a horrific front office.  The Eagles are just much better equipped to succeed and their team?  I mean, look at it: 

They have a franchise QB who when healthy is one of the best

They have a TE, who unlike in Washington, always is on the field and catches a 100+ balls a year.  You cant even LET Jordan Reed catch that many because it would be detrimental to his health.  

They have DeSean Jackson, Alshon Jeffrey......they hit you with a wave of backs with perhaps the NFL's best offensive line.  And a coach that knows how to coach them.  I mean, Jesus, give the credit first to Philly, that is an EXTREMELY TOUGH team to play especially in their park.

[wtfskins]

On 9/8/2019 at 4:10 PM, skinzdar55 said:

This sums up the Gruden era in DC....

 

Funniest and truest thing I have ever seen.  Dude is a nitwit!  We’re rebuilding every year we bring guys in and then don’t let them use their strengths.  Norman is a big cb let him put his hands on a guy with a safety watching his ass like the rest of the league does.  Lmao our defense is a joke!  

[volsmet]

 

 

 

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

On 9/9/2019 at 1:01 AM, desertbeagle85 said:

 

No Kirk would throw a INT or 2. Case missed a open WR that he's had no playing time with. 

Gruden goes into a shell once he runs his list of play's out of the gate, if he some how get's a lead .. he coaches as if he is milking the clock, problem with that is; he starts doing it in the 2nd quarter!!! Jay is the ultimate coach on surrendering momentum, how many 3 and out's can we possibly have after we get a lead??? He's like a card player who wins the first hand, then he wont play another hand because he's scared to death he may lose what he has won, in so doing he get's blinded out and goes home broke!! 

Jay has NO killer instinct, Philli goes for it on 4th and 1 and get's it, Jay punt's on 4th and 1, Philli see's a hole in the middle of our defense and runs how many consecutive play's right up our gut all the way down the field for a TD, do you think someone might have seen that huge hole in the middle and adjusted our defense??? 

I have been a huge defender of giving Jay a real opportunity, but that defensive scheme is a disaster it's not like we don't have the talent at minimum to be a top 10 defense, the head coach has to have some say about that, apparently Swearinger knew exactly what he was talking about even if he was out of line doing so when he trashed our defensive scheme, Manusky is a Dunsky, how no one can recognize that and get rid of the guy just shows how football illiterate our hierarchy is!!  

A change HAS to be made immediately on defense, we have to have someone who is smarter than this guy within the organization, if not; pull someone out of the stands on game day, we can't do any worse!!!

I can still see Wentz looking down field going; eeny, meeny, miny, mo, which wide open receiver shall i throw??? 

[fearlessNelms]

I always said that I'd like to see what Gruden could do with a good DC. He's had Haslett, Barry & Manusky as his DC's since he's been the HC here & those guys have been awful. When you can make the argument that Haslett has been his best DC, that's a problem! It's almost like Gruden has an insecurity problem and doesn't want a former HC as his DC. He let Schwartz get away when he became available. He didn't pull the trigger on Bradley or Phillips when it appeared we were front runners to get one of those guys. Look at the job Pettine's doing in GB. We had him in for an interview and let him get away. Then this year Bowles, Pagano, Wilkes and Joseph became available, we got none of them. I do believe Gruden can coach offense & I even think he's a solid talent evaluator. But his unwillingness not to hire any of these good DC's that have been there for the taking is going be a big factor in costing him his time here.

[Rogue Jedi]

I said it years ago when they first announced Jay as the head coach and and I'll say it again

They hired the wrong Cincinnati coordinator. Imagine this team run by Mike Zimmer. Dude is a hard-nose, take no BS coach, but still manages to get the best out his players and motivate them. Jay meanwhile lets DJax twist his nipples.