The Skins Can't Win With These Coaches

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

All wildly mediocre to terrible. No one with any other options will come here.

I think you have it wrong.  I'd use the Harry Potter grading scale:

 

Pass Grades:
  Outstanding (O)
  Exceeds Expectations (E)
  Acceptable (A)

Fail Grades:
  Poor (P)
  Dreadful (D)
  Troll (T)

 

Haz would rate as "dreadful", Barry as "Troll" and Manusky (who was on that historically bad 2016 defensive staff) is  Dreadful as well. 

 

The one thing that crept back into the defense, especially in the second half which was SUCH a problem under Barry is the 3rd and long defense.  The 2016 Barry led defense was statistically the worst defense in the history of the NFL at 3rd and 8+.  Yesterday, the 'Skins had 3rd and 8+ several times, and I think both Desean bombs came on those downs (I could be wrong about the second one, but I'm pretty sure the second one did), they had 3rd and 11 get converted, 3rd and 15 get converted, etc.  

 

That CAN'T happen.  And that is coaching.  Pure and simple.  When you have that type of down and distance advantage, if your team doesn't know what to do and how to execute at least 75% of the time, you've screwed something up in the game planning, teaching and preparation.  

 

The most common thing to do is bring a really strong blitz (which doesn't mean one dude coming from 30 yards away, which we do all the time), which will force the QB to go to a check-down, and then tackle. If they beat the blitz, pick it up, make a great play, then fine, the offense wins sometimes.  But very few offenses can do that consistently if you're creative with your pressures.  That's like DC 101 stuff.  

 

The other thing which was just maddening is that on one of the DJax long balls, they rushed 3, covered with 8, and still let a WR get behind them.  THAT CAN'T HAPPEN.  That is preparation.  That's players not knowing what they need to do in that situation.  That's lack of attention to detail. The first thing they SHOULD teach you on the first day of OTAs is always be deeper than the deepest, wider than the widest in those situations.  Because the theory is to funnel everything inside to where you can have help.  (I learned that from a Cooley film breakdown.)  It's the most basic concept on those type of coverages.  

 

It's all bad.  Like, ALL bad.  

 

The DC position under Gruden has been awful since he got here.  What's interesting is that since 2015, however, the DC has either been Barry or Manusky, who was one of Barry's chief lieutenants.  What Jay saw from Manusky after the 2016 season to promote from within from an awful defense, I don't know.  And the coaching just never got much better.  The talent got better, but not the coaching.  

 

I think it's time, even really early, to toss Manusky out and give the reins to one of the other folks on the coaching staff.  None have great track records, but at least it would be SOMETHING different.  I don't care if it's Tomsula, Horton or Ryan.  Play rock-paper-scissors for all I care, just pick one and see if it gets better.  If not, at least you tried something different, because what they have been doing has had crappy results for 5 years. NOTE: Yeah, I know there's a good game or two you can point to every season.  A broken clock is right twice a day.  

 

It remains the worst decision of Jay's tenure to hire Barry when Wade Phillips was actually interested in coming here because his son was already a coach. 

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

But it's not one game. It's been six years. We have six years of aggregated data.

 

 

This the worst run under Dan?  This the dude who blows leads.  This is the dude who doesn't do well in prime time games, etc?  I get the complaints.  My beef is its the same old song from regime to regime.  the last four years have been the high water mark for consistency under Dan.   We've been saying the same stuff about other regimes and then forget about it and confine it to the last coach.  

 

That's not me making excuses for Jay.  But saying I recall this same narrative at every turn when we are about to hire the next new exciting coach.  There is a culture issue IMO with this team and its not Jay centric.  It's FO centric.    I don't care if we keep or replace Jay.  But I don't think changing him will change this narrative.  This narrative isn't new, it goes back as far as Norv. 

 

31 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 

I think after six years of Bruce and Jay (and to me they are a package, meaning if you talk about one you are talking about both) it is very fair to pass judgments on them.

 

 

I think the odds are good that Bruce will be selecting the next coach.  If you told me firing Jay also means firing or reassigning Bruce, I'd endorse it in 2 seconds.  I suspect though it won't be a package deal.  I used to think it would be.  But my mind is changing on that front based on just some things beat guys have said this off season.

 

37 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 

Moreover, people who say "Jay is fine. It's the defense." baffle me. He's the head coach. The buck stops with him. In all six of his years, this has been the defense. The talent changes. The results stay the same.

 

I can still blame Manusky.  He is here.  He is calling the defense.  And at the same time I said I am fine with people wanting to sweep in Jay in that mix.  Not hiring Wade Phillips is on him.  But I don't know about Manusky.  They were interviewing bigger name D coordinators that time including Phillips again but they all elected to go elsewhere.  Laconfora said under Bruce they've gotten cheap about paying people and he's been told that if you want to get paid the Redskins aren't where you go to anymore.  They actually lost their assistant secondary coach years back who they wanted to elevate to secondary coach to the Rams in a lateral move because the Rams were willing to pay more.

[skins4eva]

33 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think you have it wrong.  I'd use the Harry Potter grading scale:

 

Pass Grades:
  Outstanding (O)
  Exceeds Expectations (E)
  Acceptable (A)

Fail Grades:
  Poor (P)
  Dreadful (D)
  Troll (T)

 

 

It remains the worst decision of Jay's tenure to hire Barry when Wade Phillips was actually interested in coming here because his son was already a coach. 

 

I'm convinced that Jay hasn't wanted to find a competent DC because then his midseason replacement would be on the coaching staff.  Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit, but I refuse to believe that he can't watch tape and see how awful these DCs have been.

[megared]

35 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Of course they didn't intend to run it 23% of the time.  But the way the defense played dead made passing so much in the second half a requirement.

 

I don't think the gameplan was to ever have Keenum throw 44 times in the game.  See point above.

 

One sack and a bunch of squandered drives, putting the team into throwing situations, due to their penalties.  Penalties matter A LOT.

 

The game only becomes a shootout when your defense makes it that way.

 

But you said that the game plan was 'what the doctor ordered'.  Yet you're saying here what happened was not obviously 'the plan'. I didn't see a coherent plan either way.

 

We didn't have to abandon the run down 1, with 5 min to go in the 3rd.  Considering the defense just gave up a quick score, it might've been good for them to sit down for a minute and figure out what happened.  Instead, our offensive drive takes exactly 30 seconds of game time off the clock...the Eagles come back and score another TD on a sustained drive.

 

My point is, long term, you CAN'T plan to win games where you have to rely so much on Case Keenum playing great.  We were in the to 25% of teams by passing attempts...bottom 3 in rushing attempts (tied for second to last).   In order for us to win that game yesterday, Keenum would've had to of thrown for 5 TDs, ~500 yards.  How sustainable is that?  

[drowland]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree with what Sheehan is saying right now on air.  The offense was good yesterday and it was an aggressive plan to take the lead and also to try to keep the lead.  They threw the ball a lot, knowing the Eagles were stout against the run.  But the defense stunk.  The ballyhooed defense folded like a bunch of lawn chairs. 

 

I'll say the same thing I said last night for those who think Jay is a big problem, then I'd chill, I think he's a goner but you'd have to wait until the season is over in all likelihood.  I think Bruce is here to make the next call on that front considering the stadium according to him is still a year away.

 

The one to watch for an in season firing is likely Manusky.  Sheehan said (I don't recall this myself) that some coach or person from another team said last year that Manusky's defenses are really easy to figure out, especially after seeing one half of it.  Unless i misheard him.  I don't recall someone saying that but if they did that's a tough indictment. 

 

I'd say it's a longshot that Jay gets fired during the season but now think it's something to watch.  You usually don't see it unless the HC losses the locker room, which even in rough times Jay's never lost the team.  However the AP situation is where things can go south.  I believe the Junkies reporting on this.  Jay doesn't want AP around.  AP's well respected in the locker room.  I'm sure he''ll reluctantly make him active against Dallas due to the backlash but it's not going to get better unless Guice gets hurt again or is just completely ineffective and they have to give those carries to AP.   

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, megared said:

But you said that the game plan was 'what the doctor ordered'.  Yet you're saying here what happened was not obviously 'the plan'. I didn't see a coherent plan either way.

No, watching the defense allow big plays in conjunction with long drives by the Eagles wasn't in the plan.  However the offense capitalized and then squandered opportunities with overthrows, drops and penalties.  The opportunities were there though.

 

7 minutes ago, megared said:

We didn't have to abandon the run down 1, with 5 min to go in the 3rd.  Considering the defense just gave up a quick score, it might've been good for them to sit down for a minute and figure out what happened.  Instead, our offensive drive takes exactly 30 seconds of game time off the clock...the Eagles come back and score another TD on a sustained drive.

Maybe I was watching a different game than you, but the running game wasn't doing squat but getting penalties creating awful down and distance scenarios.  Are you under the impression that running into a brick wall, sparing the defense a small breather, changes the game?

 

9 minutes ago, megared said:

My point is, long term, you CAN'T plan to win games where you have to rely so much on Case Keenum playing great.  We were in the to 25% of teams by passing attempts...bottom 3 in rushing attempts (tied for second to last).   In order for us to win that game yesterday, Keenum would've had to of thrown for 5 TDs, ~500 yards.  How sustainable is that?  

It's not sustainable week in and week out, but would have been fine yesterday if not for penalties and a lay down defense.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, drowland said:

 

I'd say it's a longshot that Jay gets fired during the season but now think it's something to watch.  You usually don't see it unless the HC losses the locker room, which even in rough times Jay's never lost the team.  However the AP situation is where things can go south.  I believe the Junkies reporting on this.  Jay doesn't want AP around.  AP's well respected in the locker room.  I'm sure he''ll reluctantly make him active against Dallas due to the backlash but it's not going to get better unless Guice gets hurt again or is just completely ineffective and they have to give those carries to AP.   

 

Just guessing here.  But I suspect if there is something brewing relating to Peterson it centers perhaps on Jay not having final say on roster versus his specific feelings about Adrian.  Last year, Jay complemented Adrian non stop (as a player and person) so I doubt he has any ill feelings about him as an individual.   Two different beat guys have said that Jay was frustrated by FA last off season and that his relationship with Bruce isn't what it once was. 

 

Still doubt though Jay gets fired during the season.  It's not Dan's style.    The more I am digesting the loss the less i am convinced that this loss is the start of this long losing streak with no end in sight.  They again almost beat what some say is the best team in the NFL on the road.  The way they lost stung but I think it makes it all feel over dramatic.  If Keenum plays this season like he did yesterday and the defense gets their stuff together -- the vibe I get from that game isn't that we are going 3-13, etc. 

 

 

Here's another one that gets me (below), the Eagles wanted it more.  Yuck.  Brian Mitchell who is far from afraid to attack coaches has said many times, players motivate themselves, if you are a gamer you are a gamer.  I keep going back to London Fletcher because our defenses were best under him.  I like a coordinator who is a good motivator.   But I put some of this stuff like coming out flat and stuff like the Eagles wanting it more on the players.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

“Defensively, we have too good of personnel to play like that,” coach Jay Gruden said.

The Redskins made the kind of devastating mistakes that shouldn’t happen in the first game of a new season.

On Jackson’s touchdowns, for instance, Redskins defenders, who harped on better communication going into this year, weren’t on the same page.

On the speedy wideout’s 51-yard score that gave Philadelphia its first points, the Redskins mixed up the zone coverage — leaving cornerback Josh Norman with no safety help over the top.

On the catch that gave the Eagles the lead in the third, the Redskins failed to communicate a check properly before the play was snapped, and Jackson blew past rookie Jimmy Moreland and safety Montae Nicholson for a 53-yard touchdown.

“We kind of just fell apart,” Nicholson said of the second-half collapse. “Plain and simple. This goes back to maintaining our composure and staying together. It’s the game endurance that we still have to pick up.”

The Redskins knew what they were facing. Jackson, after all, spent two seasons with Washington before leaving as a free agent in 2017. They also faced Jackson for years with the Eagles prior to the wideout reuniting with Philadelphia this offseason.

Even at 32, Jackson has blazing speed — he finished with eight catches and 154 yards, and his playmaking ultimately made the difference as Washington couldn’t hold on to a 17-point lead.

 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/sep/8/quinton-dunbar-says-eagles-wanted-it-more/

 

 

 

[megared]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No, watching the defense allow big plays in conjunction with long drives by the Eagles wasn't in the plan.  However the offense capitalized and then squandered opportunities with overthrows, drops and penalties.  The opportunities were there though.

 

Maybe I was watching a different game than you, but the running game wasn't doing squat but getting penalties creating awful down and distance scenarios.  Are you under the impression that running into a brick wall, sparing the defense a small breather, changes the game?

 

It's not sustainable week in and week out, but would have been fine yesterday if not for penalties and a lay down defense.

How is abandoning it going to ever make it a viable option in the offense?  And anyone that saw the runs we did attempt, would tell you that they were telegraphed.  A shotgun draw that loses 5 yards?  C'mon.

 

And what you're faling to factor in is that, this is pretty much Keenum's peak.  It's far more likely in this situation that he has turnovers, gets pressured more, and makes more  mistakes.  Considering 370 appears to be his career high in yardage in a game, you don't think it's asking a lot of him to get another 130 mistake free yards, and 2 more TDs?  He's never done it before (in some cases with better weapons).     

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, megared said:

How is abandoning it going to ever make it a viable option in the offense?  And anyone that saw the runs we did attempt, would tell you that they were telegraphed.  A shotgun draw that loses 5 yards?  C'mon.

 

And what you're faling to factor in is that, this is pretty much Keenum's peak.  It's far more likely in this situation that he has turnovers, gets pressured more, and makes more  mistakes.  Considering 370 appears to be his career high in yardage in a game, you don't think it's asking a lot of him to get another 130 mistake free yards, and 2 more TDs?  He's never done it before (in some cases with better weapons).     

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Keenum's limitations as if I've been arguing that he is some great quarterback, because nowhere have I ever said that.  He didn't need to be god's gift to the QB position to beat Philly's secondary though.  The Redskins were not beating Philly with the running game with Guice, AP, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, you name it.  Not with the way they run block and hold regularly they weren't. 

 

I also never said that every play call was great, but overall it was more good than bad - with poor execution being the catalyst for demise.  

[redskinss]

My wet dream is to fire manusky this morning and hire rex ryan.

Only way I'd have any hope for a turn around this season. 

Manusky is useless and always will be, we tried to replace him this off season for a reason and that reason is still around. 

I dont care that it'd take a while for the players to learn a new system and I dont care that it'd take a while for rex to shake the rust off at least he wouldn't be out coached.

Gruden is a lousy head coach and desperately needs a big time leader with a proven track record to take over the defense so he can focus solely on the offense.

I don't even care about the drama and bull**** that the Ryan's bring with them, we already have one of them in our system to smooth the transition and all I care about is his proven ability to outsmart the guy on the other side of the line of scrimmage. 

Something we so desperately lack in this organization. 

[NoCalMike]

When it comes to D-Jax, there should never be a "do I stick with him or not?" the defense should never even have to guess. Manusky should have it in the game preparation the entire week that Nicholson is to stay shaded over the top of Jackson unless told otherwise for specific plays.  Take all the guessing out of it. 

[theTruthTeller]

This is a team with mediocre talent and mediocre coaching.  Most of the time, the Skins will play average boring football, but they'll have moments that appear to portend greatness and moments that signal imminent catastrophic failure.  Yesterday they happened to have both of those moments in the same game.  In the end, they lost because their just not as talented as Philly, either from a player or coaching standpoint.  The result was expected, it just feels much worse because the Skins had an early lead.  Early leads means there is plenty of time to lose.

[Stadium-Armory]

Inasmuch as there is an X's and O's problem, there is also a motivational leadership problem. Jay's teams give up.

[BurgundyBooger]

The difference between a good head coach and Jay Gruden is the same difference between an improv comic and a comic who relies on regurgitating jokes written down the night before. The best comics can always identify the shifting mood of the audience and adjust their shtick to keep the party going; they're naturally quick and funny. Jay Gruden can write the best jokes that come to his mind but when finally heckled by a bored audience he'll freeze up with no answer or comeback.

[CommandB11]

I feel like Jay is an excellent game planner. I would like to see him take a step bqxk however and no longer have play calling duties. Help the team prepare through the week and just oversee the coordinators as they do work on gameday. I feel like that would possibly allow the team to be prepared going into a game, and allows the coordinators to make adjustments throughout the game. 

 

All that said, Manusky has got to go. Need a better DC if we ever want to see a defense play up to its talent.

[megared]

33 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Keenum's limitations as if I've been arguing that he is some great quarterback, because nowhere have I ever said that.  He didn't need to be god's gift to the QB position to beat Philly's secondary though.  The Redskins were not beating Philly with the running game with Guice, AP, Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, you name it.  Not with the way they run block and hold regularly they weren't. 

 

I also never said that every play call was great, but overall it was more good than bad - with poor execution being the catalyst for demise.  

 

All I'm saying is, planning a game around Case Keenum going for 400 and 4 TDs is like planning a bank robbery around a solar eclipse

[volsmet]

12 hours ago, Unbias said:

I'm typically a defender of Gruden, but I kinda believe it. 

 

Watching Keenum I kept thinking he's doing exactly what Kirk would do. Look great early, then look worse as the game wears on. 

 

 

Jay able to exploit the one advantage we’ve got, nobody gives a rip about playing Washington. Nobody has been excited about a matchup with us since the epic matchup of football Goliath's that took place on October 15th 2001.

 

 

6 hours ago, skinzplay said:

You fire Gruden now and cut your losses. Look at all the young talent on offense and defense. Leave that at his disposal, and you're not only wasting immense talent and potential, you're going to end up demoralizing those guys. 

 

Is Kellen Moore available?

[volsmet]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Operative point for me.  I disagree with Jay on Adrian.  Said so, yesterday.  I probably have written the longest post dissecting Jay's play calling, did it last year, and I had plenty of criticism in that soup.  I've said a gazillion times, if Dan fired or reassigned Bruce and Jay is collateral damage I wouldn't mind it all.  Yet with all of that, I am considered a Jay homer because I don't see firing Jay as being any cure all.    the issues IMO with this team is at the top.   They've had Norv, Marty, Spurrier, Gibbs, Shanny, Zorn and now Jay.  And Jay ironically has had the best run in that mix.  The last three years have been the most consistent run of all of them.  Dan's next hire is finally going to be the fix?  Look I get the feeling because I've had that feeling plenty of times myself but I am burnt out on it, I don't buy it anymore.

 

Put a real GM in charge, and they can put anyone they'd like as HC.  Not only would I be fine with it but I'd love it because it would be the right structure.  But just dumping Jay and letting Bruce make the next call -- in my view, you are just as likely to get a dude that he's close with like Raheem Morris than you will some stud.  Guys like Lincoln Riley or name that hot shot name I doubt are coming here.  

 

No mansplaining, bruh. We, here, stay, woke. You will be who we blame for all we can’t stand about life in general, it is your fault, your post history can not clear your name, we’d be contenders if you didn’t kinda think Jay was a decent coach. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

14 hours ago, CPAllTheWay012 said:

On the Peterson topic...

 

1. Was Peterson ever asked to play special teams as an option? 

 

2. Does Jay not see the advantage of running 2 back sets with Guice and Peterson? 

 

1. He shouldn't be asked to play ST.

 

2. No, otherwise they would have spent some time in the last 6 months coming up with plays to take advantage of both players and skill sets.  

 

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't know if its gotten worse under Jay but I know the idea that this team collapses when they have leads isn't an exclusive Jay thing.  it's been a song sung under all the coaches starting from Norv.

Cooley did this research on Jay.  You bring up a good point.  I mean, Dan's first game as owner was the the 1999 game against Dallas when the entire team cramped up and the Cowboys came back from like 98 points down.  My feeling is that this has been more of a trend under Jay, though I could be wrong.  However, for this to really be useful, you'd need to look at it across all teams over a large period of time to see how often teams come back from 10+ point leads.  

 

This is going to turn into quite the science experiment, if the data even exists in an easily usable format.

 

37 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Completely disagree here.  I seriously doubted his gameplan was to run the ball 23% of the time.  Or have Keenum throw it 44 times.  If you had told me that before the game, I would've assumed we were down 2-3 scores the entire game.  

 

Keenum played as well as you can reasonably expect.  He had no turnovers, pushed the ball, and we still lost.  Fact of the matter is, the more you rely on Keenum to win games, the less likely he is to do so.  Last season for the Broncos he was 2-7 when asked they asked him to throw 35 or more passes in a game.  In the six wins he had on the Broncos last season, he only threw ~29 passes a game.  

 

The offensive line also played beyond expectations.  They only gave up one sack, despite being so one-dimensional.  I don't expect that to be sustainable.

 

Is our strategy really going to be to engage teams in shootouts?  Knowing that our defense is equally likely to give it back?  

The ONLY real problem with the game plan was running on all but 2 of their first downs during the competitve part of the game.  It was clear early that they are a better passing team than running team.  So, pass on first down and run on second.  This running on first down thing is like Jay just can't dump the hot, crazy girlfriend even though he knows she's going to cost him all his money and then leave him in the end.  

 

 

42 minutes ago, Burgold said:

But it's not one game. It's been six years. We have six years of aggregated data.

...

Moreover, people who say "Jay is fine. It's the defense." baffle me. He's the head coach. The buck stops with him. In all six of his years, this has been the defense. The talent changes. The results stay the same. Jay or Bruce hire DCs who call the same passive, conservative game. Haslett > Barry < Manusky. Regardless, a head coach is responsible for the team. If special teams always sucks, if defense always falls apart... even if the offense is world class that hangs on the HC's shoulders. 

 

As always, I end with the disclaimer, I'd love to be wrong.

Yeah, after 5 years, you really should know what you have.  I fixed the rankings for you.  As bad as Haz and Manusky are, Barry was worse.  None of them are qualified to be DCs of an NFL team.  Probably not D1 college either.  But Barry is the worst of them.  

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I put some of that on Manusky but I can't let go of comments from Landon Collins among them that the defense came out flat in the 2nd half.   Coming out flat to me is a symptom of being full of yourself and overconfident.  That really irked me reading that, 

That's on both the coaches and the players.  The players have to know that they haven't won anything yet, but the coaches have to instill a sense of urgency at halftime.  If this was a one-time thing, I'd say, "eh, whatever."  But this is a 5 year trend with almost entire roster turnover, maybe twice.  The constants have been Jay and the coaching staff.  

 

I'm not sure what they are doing at half time, but they need to do something different.  I'm not suggesting Jay go all crazy and put his hand through a grease board like Gibbs did in 1991.  But some change in approach needs to happen, and needs to happen fast.  

 

I just know what the numbers say, and the 'Skins are DREADFUL after the half, and have been for years, so SOMETHING needs to be done differently.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To me Jay is almost irrelevant if I am looking for macro change to turn this franchise around.  I think replacing Jay is just rearranging the chairs on the deck.  And as hardcore as some think that Jay needs to go.  I am equally as hardcore on the FO has to be changed first.  We've had a 20 year sample of coaches.  We had the hot shot college coach.  We got the supposed outside the box thinking QB guru, we had the Redskins legend coach on the come back, Marty ball, the offensive genius - Shanny, the young offensive mind who molded Dalton, etc.   I am sure the next narrative will sound equally exciting.  But count me skeptical until the FO changes that the next HC will change our fortunes.  

Does anybody disagree with you about this?  Have you gotten any push-back from any poster that Bruce specifically is not the second largest problem?  I mean, I kinda think that just about everybody acknowledges this as table stakes.  Dan = Problem 1.  Bruce = Problem 2.  Everything else = Problem #3 and below. And the gap between Problems 1 and 2 to #3 is like the freaking Atlantic Ocean.  I certainly haven't ever suggested otherwise.  As critical as I have been on Jay, I've NEVER suggested that Dan or Bruce isn't a larger problem.  

 

The tweet that caught on last year was #FireBruceAllen.  Not #FireJayGruden.  

 

My guess, however, is a lot of people believe both FO and Coaching are important.  And while roster construction might be most important, because talent wins more often than not, knowing what to do with that talent is also important, because just about everybody has some talent, unless the team is tanking.  

 

Just look at the Rams under Fisher vs. McVay.  Key personnel differences between the 4-12 Fisher team vs. the 11-5 McVay team:

WR: Cooper Cupp and Sammy Watkins added.  

(I went through every position group.  I might have missed one or two here or there, but the key guys at each group seemed to be there.  The similarity on the rosters is actually somewhat shocking.)

 

What changed between the 2?  Fisher is an awful coach, McVay isn't.  He basically took Fishers roster, added a few WRs, and went 11-5. Why?  Culture.  Preparation.  Attention to detail.  Innovative game plans. Also, he did this as a rookie HC.  

 

Remember, folks were CONVINCED Goff couldn't play and the Rams was a landing spot for Cousins in 2018 because Goff was going to stink.  Then, magically, Goff could play.  

 

Coaching matters.  Personnel matters. 

 

In 2018, the Rams started to go "all-in" and signed a bunch more FAs.  But in 2017, McVay's rookie year, it was largely the same team + draft picks which Fisher coached to 4-12 the year before.  That's a 7 game difference, which isn't all on 2 WRs and a draft class. 

[volsmet]

4 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

logical and intelligent

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The one to watch for an in season firing is likely Manusky.  Sheehan said (I don't recall this myself) that some coach or person from another team said last year that Manusky's defenses are really easy to figure out, especially after seeing one half of it.  Unless i misheard him.  I don't recall someone saying that but if they did that's a tough indictment. 

 

Maybe the problem is he’s practicing against Jay’s offense too frequently. 

 

If you know a team is going to run on first, that run is unlikely to be successful, which makes every ensuing call nearly as predictable as its predecessor. 

 

 

[volsmet]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

Did anyone honestly think we were going to win once the score was 21-20?  That should tell you all there is to know about this team under Gruden.  

 

There was never a moment I felt we’d win. 

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I get that the head coach gets throttled when things go poorly.  I get that there is history there with coming out flat after halftime.  So this is not some big defense of Jay Gruden as a whole, but...

 

The offensive gameplan against Philly was exactly what the doctor ordered.  We were not going to run the ball down their throat with Guice, AP, the combination of both, etc.  Their strength is stopping the run, their weakness is pass defense.  There are no 'adjustments' to the offense from a playcalling standpoint that change the outcome of the game.  Opportunities presented themselves and execution squandered them, whether that be overthrows, dropped passes, or the main culprit and usual suspect - penalties, typically by the offensive line at very inopportune times.  I'm not sure what 'adjustment' Jay can make there besides putting in a worse player for the usual offenders and hoping they don't hold like the guy before them.

 

The only adjustment that might have helped needed to happen several months ago with the release of Greg Manusky.  That's where this game was lost and that is a common theme of the team coming out flat after halftime in games - the defense.  The one that practically every year comes up with some nickname and talks tough about how great they are.

 

 

 

Sounds like you’re happy with the OC, but displeased with the HC & DC.

2 hours ago, skins4eva said:

 

I didn’t quote all of it but this might be my favorite post in all of my time on this board (15 years and counting).

 

An ES youngster.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I have an idea which could really help Jay.  Now, before you kill me, please hear me out.  Abandon the run.  Not entirely. Just mostly. 

 

Upon sleeping on it, I think the best thing this offense could do is go no-huddle, up-tempo, and throw the ball all over the field.  Stop running on first down, and stop trying to be balanced.  This whole "abandon the run" thing is way over-played.  They run TOO MUCH and UNSUCCESSFULLY.

 

Let's call a spade a spade: this coaching staff has never known how to scheme up the run game or when to call runs.  It's just aggravating at this point, and unproductive.  You have something in the receiving corps and Keenum has shown he can play well.

 

Also, Jay's biggest strength is scheming up a passing game.  So use it.  Early and often.  Fun 'n gun baby.  Let's go.  

 

Seriously. The WR corps looks like they have something.  Keenum looks like he can play in Jay's system.  Pass to build a lead.  Statistics actually prove you don't have to run to use play action.  Counter-intuitive, but that's what they say.

 

Throw caution to the wind.  Go out and try and score 35 points a game.  If you go 3-out a few times?  So what?

 

What they are doing, and have been trying to do, the last 2 years isn't working.  Go full 1981 Gibbs mode in reverse.  Gibbs had a high-flying Don Coryel style offense when he took over the team in 1981.  Everybody was making plays.  But they were 0-5.  He adjusted.  Said, "screw this, we're going to run it, play defense and win."  12 years, 4 NFC championships and 3 SBs later, he marched into the HOF.  Why?  Because he adjusted.

 

What worked in the 1980's doesn't work now.  It's time to adjust.  Abandon the run.  Play to the strength of your team.  Play to the strength of your coach.  Throw the ball.  Be aggressive.  Score Points. Do what you do best.  

[Warhead36]

Unless you have a Barkley or Elliott, there is no point being a run first offense. Its simply inefficient. A GOOD run play gets you 4-5 yards. An average pass play gets you ~6. Its a numbers game. And then you factor in how easy it is to rack up PIs and late hits by throwing it downfield and it makes the passing game even more efficient.

[volsmet]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I have an idea which could really help Jay.  Now, before you kill me, please hear me out.  Abandon the run.  Not entirely. Just mostly. 

 

Upon sleeping on it, I think the best thing this offense could do is go no-huddle, up-tempo, and throw the ball all over the field.  Stop running on first down, and stop trying to be balanced.  This whole "abandon the run" thing is way over-played.  They run TOO MUCH and UNSUCCESSFULLY.

 

 

Absolutely. The nfl has made life easier on QBs, WRs, TEs, & OTs. 

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Unless you have a Barkley or Elliott, there is no point being a run first offense. Its simply inefficient. A GOOD run play gets you 4-5 yards. An average pass play gets you ~6. Its a numbers game. And then you factor in how easy it is to rack up PIs and late hits by throwing it downfield and it makes the passing game even more efficient.

 

Looks like Dallas will open things up this year, that offense looked impressive.