The Skins Can't Win With These Coaches

[Llevron]

lose a 17 point lead and dude is like yea I COULD HAVE used this Hof'er on my bench but im still not. I bet no coach in that locker room thinks they did anything wrong. 

 

Gonna hurt sunday 

[skinsmania123]

7 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

And who is ultimately judging qualifications? The guy who had Vinny Cerrato in place for 10 years (and canned John Schneider for him) and Bruce Allen for 9...

 

Only way I would look at this team any different is if they do something like elevate Eric Schaffer to President of Football Ops or some such title, and make Kyle Smith GM. But even still, the Snyder Spectre lurks.

In replying to my own post where I said I don't have the answers  I think you are on to something, but it is too logical and intelligent for this braintrust. The fact continues to remain that until Snyder truly relinquishes control we will always be mediocre. The reason he has Bruce Allen there, in that position, is because he gets to play pseudo GM himself along with Bruce.  It has been a proven disaster, that they have not learned from. And I actually think their influence goes far beyond what we can even imagine.  While Jay is a super nice guy, make no mistake he has lasted as long as he has because he goes along to get along. Many of the decisions we may believe are made by Gruden in terms of personnel, maybe even as far as who will play, is ultimately decide by Bruce and Danny.   Didn't Doug Williams say something to the effect that they would decide between Keenum and Haskins in terms of who would start?  Why believe they are NOT making other decisions?  If you are not a patsy to the ego of Bruce Allen you are not going to stay around long.  And Gruden almost looks like a lifer at this point. 

 

Also if I am Jay, on a complete other subject that really pisses me off, but a HC has to say something, that first bomb to DeSean Jackson on 3rd and 10 with our 3 man rush? I am running up the sideline to Manlosesky, and I am not giving a **** who is watching and I am saying, "put someone on him."  What do they do? Nothing.  They even let him do it again with I think the safety being turned around looking over to his left, with his ass beat,  as Jackson breezes into the EZ.

 

[RandyHolt]

They can win with these coaches, but not with their predictable approach.

 

Run on first

Abandon the Run

Delayed Blitz 1 / Never jail breaks on the QB

Fool the D ourselves by Running CT from pass looks

Predictable formations. Compare vs Philly that opened in 5 wide.

No Deception attempted. No reverses, stunts, flea flickers etc.

Philly used 3 backs effectively, vs. 2 for us and Jay all but told them our plan at RB.   Guice in = run | CT = Pass held up very well.

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree with what Sheehan is saying right now on air.  The offense was good yesterday and it was an aggressive plan to take the lead and also to try to keep the lead.  They threw the ball a lot, knowing the Eagles were stout against the run.  But the defense stunk.  The ballyhooed defense folded like a bunch of lawn chairs. 

 

I'll say the same thing I said last night for those who think Jay is a big problem, then I'd chill, I think he's a goner but you'd have to wait until the season is over in all likelihood.  I think Bruce is here to make the next call on that front considering the stadium according to him is still a year away.

 

The one to watch for an in season firing is likely Manusky.  Sheehan said (I don't recall this myself) that some coach or person from another team said last year that Manusky's defenses are really easy to figure out, especially after seeing one half of it.  Unless i misheard him.  I don't recall someone saying that but if they did that's a tough indictment. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I get that the head coach gets throttled when things go poorly.  I get that there is history there with coming out flat after halftime.  So this is not some big defense of Jay Gruden as a whole, but...

 

The offensive gameplan against Philly was exactly what the doctor ordered.  We were not going to run the ball down their throat with Guice, AP, the combination of both, etc.  Their strength is stopping the run, their weakness is pass defense.  There are no 'adjustments' to the offense from a playcalling standpoint that change the outcome of the game.  Opportunities presented themselves and execution squandered them, whether that be overthrows, dropped passes, or the main culprit and usual suspect - penalties, typically by the offensive line at very inopportune times.  I'm not sure what 'adjustment' Jay can make there besides putting in a worse player for the usual offenders and hoping they don't hold like the guy before them.

 

The only adjustment that might have helped needed to happen several months ago with the release of Greg Manusky.  That's where this game was lost and that is a common theme of the team coming out flat after halftime in games - the defense.  The one that practically every year comes up with some nickname and talks tough about how great they are.

 

 

[DJHJR86]

Did anyone honestly think we were going to win once the score was 21-20?  That should tell you all there is to know about this team under Gruden.  

[dballer]

49 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Operative point for me.  I disagree with Jay on Adrian.  Said so, yesterday.  I probably have written the longest post dissecting Jay's play calling, did it last year, and I had plenty of criticism in that soup.  I've said a gazillion times, if Dan fired or reassigned Bruce and Jay is collateral damage I wouldn't mind it all.  Yet with all of that, I am considered a Jay homer because I don't see firing Jay as being any cure all.    the issues IMO with this team is at the top.   They've had Norv, Marty, Spurrier, Gibbs, Shanny, Zorn and now Jay.  And Jay ironically has had the best run in that mix.  The last three years have been the most consistent run of all of them.  Dan's next hire is finally going to be the fix?  Look I get the feeling because I've had that feeling plenty of times myself but I am burnt out on it, I don't buy it anymore.

 

Put a real GM in charge, and they can put anyone they'd like as HC.  Not only would I be fine with it but I'd love it because it would be the right structure.  But just dumping Jay and letting Bruce make the next call -- in my view, you are just as likely to get a dude that he's close with like Raheem Morris than you will some stud.  Guys like Lincoln Riley or name that hot shot name I doubt are coming here.  

 

I have been a Jay apologist but, i think at this point you know what we have. It is the same stuff over and over. Bruce is without a doubt a major problem. The fact that they couldn't find a D coordinator in the offseason is a problem. But what do you do?

 

I don't trust Bruce will be fired. If last year didn't do it what will? I say, at some point in the near future, fire Jay and promote Kevin OC. Let him finish the season. If he is as good as people think, he will probably be gone next year either way. At least this gives us a chance to keep him, if he is that good. If not, what have we lost?

 

I have always been torn with Jay. There are times I think he does more with less than anyone. But he also doesn't seems to do less with more. Either way, the combination of what we have right now isn't the answer. Lets try something else. We gave Jay time, if nothing else. He wasn't able to overcome the obstacle in front of him. Maybe someone else will figure out how. Have to try, right?

[FrFan]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Operative point for me.  I disagree with Jay on Adrian.  Said so, yesterday.  I probably have written the longest post dissecting Jay's play calling, did it last year, and I had plenty of criticism in that soup.  I've said a gazillion times, if Dan fired or reassigned Bruce and Jay is collateral damage I wouldn't mind it all.  Yet with all of that, I am considered a Jay homer because I don't see firing Jay as being any cure all.    the issues IMO with this team is at the top.   They've had Norv, Marty, Spurrier, Gibbs, Shanny, Zorn and now Jay.  And Jay ironically has had the best run in that mix.  The last three years have been the most consistent run of all of them.  Dan's next hire is finally going to be the fix?  Look I get the feeling because I've had that feeling plenty of times myself but I am burnt out on it, I don't buy it anymore.

 

Put a real GM in charge, and they can put anyone they'd like as HC.  Not only would I be fine with it but I'd love it because it would be the right structure.  But just dumping Jay and letting Bruce make the next call -- in my view, you are just as likely to get a dude that he's close with like Raheem Morris than you will some stud.  Guys like Lincoln Riley or name that hot shot name I doubt are coming here.  

I'm on the same page as you about Adrian. I don't even understand why he's been inactive ? I read rumors about a disagreement between him and Gruden and that he is going to be cut sooner rather than later. I've always considered Jay as an average HC who doesn't have what it takes to take you to the big show.

Anyways thanks for your quality posts always interesting to read

[RandyHolt]

Manusky like all bend don't break Ds are predictable.

 

Sure we change up the backend to confuse ourselves more often than QBs, but up front its simple for the OL QB and RB.

 

The predictability starts up front

[RFK Lives]

22 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Did anyone honestly think we were going to win once the score was 21-20?  That should tell you all there is to know about this team under Gruden.  

 

If I am honest, I didn't think we were going to win once it was 20 - 7.  This team, or for that matter, all teams under Gruden and his coaching staff lack discipline, mental toughness and killer instinct.  

The holding penalties and false start penalties are always there. 

The lack of halftime adjustments, always an issue.

They might be great at scripting the first 10 plays but after that, everything seems to be predictable.

Part of me wishes they had gotten their doors blown off from the get go so I would not have had the false hope of kicking the football before Jay pulled it away at the last second.

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

I have been a Jay apologist but, i think at this point you know what we have. It is the same stuff over and over. Bruce is without a doubt a major problem. The fact that they couldn't find a D coordinator in the offseason is a problem. But what do you do?

 

I don't trust Bruce will be fired. If last year didn't do it what will? I say, at some point in the near future, fire Jay and promote Kevin OC. Let him finish the season. If he is as good as people think, he will probably be gone next year either way. At least this gives us a chance to keep him, if he is that good. If not, what have we lost?

 

I have always been torn with Jay. There are times I think he does more with less than anyone. But he also doesn't seems to do less with more. Either way, the combination of what we have right now isn't the answer. Lets try something else. We gave Jay time, if nothing else. He wasn't able to overcome the obstacle in front of him. Maybe someone else will figure out how. Have to try, right?

 

Not saying you are on the other side of any of these points.  My take on Jay is its way premature to go nuts over one loss to a juggernaut team no less.  It's not like they lost some gimmie game at home.   Instead they had what many pundit types think is the best team in the NFL on the ropes on the road.    So the idea that the season is lost and we are going to have a miserable season, etc...I think is ridiculous.    I almost posted it here but figured It would get trashed but I was reading an article from USA Today about what if the Redskins are good?  Their point is lost in the hurt of this loss is we saw signs that this could be a good team.  I have some of the same thoughts.  It's not that am banking on a good season but I saw nothing about that game that makes me think all is lost.

 

So if I were a harsh Jay critic, I'd guess nothing about yesterday would sway me otherwise.   But I am OK with Jay, don't love him, don't hate him.   I'd happily replace him with name that stud coach.   I am skeptical though that a new coach fixes thing.  More importantly, I am skeptical that the next coach is better.  And that's not because I don't think better coaches exist but I don't think Bruce-Dan will find said coaches or even if they do it would be a combustible situation eventually like Shanny, Marty, etc where things go south.  for me to get a new HC it has to start with a new GM.

 

As for O'Connell I like what I've heard.  But right now he's just a theory.  He's more raw in experience than McVay.  McVay was a coordinator for multiple years first.  If I were pining for O'Connell and wanted Jay gone, I'd still want the season to play out so he can get at least some seasoning.  The last really unseasoned HC we had was Zorn.  I think obviously much more highly of O'Connell but its good to get at least some coordinator experience before becoming a HC. 

 

There was nothing yesterday that made me think Jay is a lost puppy and the season is shot.  I'd let things unfold some.  That was the best game I've ever seen from Keenum.  They were going up against arguably a top 3 defense.  They were on the road.  Yeah it hurts to lose after building a lead.  Yes there are aspects of Jay that are frustrating.  But watching that game the dude where I tipped the balance on (where I was neutral on) in my mind was Manusky.  This is a talented defense and they folded last year against top offenses and did so again yesterday.  What kills me is they don't just give up points but if a team wants to bleed the clock to ice a game, they allow that to happen, too. 

 

I don't think the offense under achieved but I do think the defense under achieved.  If people want to blast Jay for not hiring Wade Phillips (I blasted him too at the time) and hiring Manusky, etc.  I get that.   My thing about coaches is I had criticisms of ALL of them.  There were things I didn't like about all of them.  That to me makes sense.  No dude has it all figured out, they all have weaknesses.  Jay has weaknesses, too.    For me looking at the full picture with Jay, there are things I like (play design, personality, talent evaluation) and things I don't like (how he's handled the run game, defensive coordinators, clock management).  I don't think the dude is a buffoon.     And I also don't think slam dunk any replacement will be better. 

 

To me Jay is almost irrelevant if I am looking for macro change to turn this franchise around.  I think replacing Jay is just rearranging the chairs on the deck.  And as hardcore as some think that Jay needs to go.  I am equally as hardcore on the FO has to be changed first.  We've had a 20 year sample of coaches.  We had the hot shot college coach.  We got the supposed outside the box thinking QB guru, we had the Redskins legend coach on the come back, Marty ball, the offensive genius - Shanny, the young offensive mind who molded Dalton, etc.   I am sure the next narrative will sound equally exciting.  But count me skeptical until the FO changes that the next HC will change our fortunes.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I am with Michael Phillips, Junkies, Sheehan on the Peterson move, i wouldn't have done it, though they get the logic of it (as I do) but the problem is it brings unnecessary drama. 

 

But part of me suspects Jay's thing with Peterson runs to something deeper.   If Jay flames out here, I'd actually prefer it with a showdown and drama with the FO.  He's a laid back dude so I think it would be telling for it to explode somehow.  

 

As for Moses, I've been on him this off season.  He seems like a good person.  But I think he's overpaid and overrated.  He gives up too many sacks and he led the league in penalties last year.   That's not a good combination.  I like Jay calling it out.    Warren Sharp is equally tough on the offensive penalties being a problem with this team than he is with the running on first down.  Statistically speaking, Sharp shows that offensive penalties can tip many close games.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Redskins' right side of the line -- tackle Morgan Moses and guard Brandon Scherff-- are the ones Washington needs to count on. Moses has two penalties -- a hold and a false start -- and those two mishandled two stunts. One of those resulted in a sack and another in a tackle for a loss. The Redskins will need stronger play from these two if they want to maintain their lead vs. the Eagles.

 

John Keim, ESPN Staff Writer18h ago

[DJHJR86]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

That was the best game I've ever seen from Keenum.  They were going up against arguably a top 3 defense.  They were on the road.

 

These are good points.  And they are even further evidence that Bruce Allen should be terminated for trading for...and extending Alex Smith.  Keenum looked much better than Alex Smith did in any of those 10 games he started last year.  And to be honest, I was shocked that he looked that good.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

These are good points.  And they are even further evidence that Bruce Allen should be terminated for trading for...and extending Alex Smith.  Keenum looked much better than Alex Smith did in any of those 10 games he started last year.  And to be honest, I was shocked that he looked that good.

 

Yeah Keenum was 2017 version.  Maybe better.   If you told me keenum would throw for 380, 3-0, I'd say you were insane.  Especially against that team. 

 

The reason why I am so focused on the defense is that if Keenum is his 2017 version they can have themselves a season if the defense leaves up to their hype.  Yesterday, that was a pathetic showing from a defense that I believed in leading into this season.  And some of those players talking in the off season about how special their defense is...  I put some of that on Manusky but I can't let go of comments from Landon Collins among them that the defense came out flat in the 2nd half.   Coming out flat to me is a symptom of being full of yourself and overconfident.  That really irked me reading that, 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Morgan Moses seems like a good man via what I've seen and heard of him over the years.

 

That said, this dude has some audacity to be out there the morning after, talking about it's a slap in the face and the refs have it out for them.  As if he wasn't going to get AP's runs taken back 10 yards with his holding that the refs who have it out for them have called.  

 

Week 1 and the whaaambulance is already at Redskins Park.  Can't make this stuff up.

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I put some of that on Manusky but I can't let go of comments from Landon Collins among them that the defense came out flat in the 2nd half.   Coming out flat to me is a symptom of being full of yourself and overconfident.  That really irked me reading that, 

 

The local media hyped up this defense all off season, which in turn had fans buying into the hype.  The only problem?  They haven't done anything in the regular season to deserve it.  20th in DVOA last year, and you could see yesterday that they came out ****y in the 2nd half and then folded at the first sign of pressure.  And I don't think Manusky should shoulder the majority of the blame for that.

[Riggo#44]

58 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Did anyone honestly think we were going to win once the score was 21-20?  That should tell you all there is to know about this team under Gruden.  

 

I didn't think we were going to win when we were up 20-7.

[C26 Run]

This loss is squarely on Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky.  The execution was poor in the 2nd half, and the defensive communication was horrible. I'll be very surprised if Manusky finishes the season as DC.  

 

One last thing:  Gruden seems to be consciously trying to create a controversy.  I don't know for sure if AP would've made a huge difference but I'm willing to bet he would've gained more than 18 yards rushing.  Gruden set a bad precedence by not playing Peterson.  

 

[Burgold]

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not saying you are on the other side of any of these points.  My take on Jay is its way premature to go nuts over one loss to a juggernaut team no less. 

But it's not one game. It's been six years. We have six years of aggregated data.

 

I agree it's too early to throw in the towel on this season, though I think my head did that in December of 2018. But, I think after six years of Bruce and Jay (and to me they are a package, meaning if you talk about one you are talking about both) it is very fair to pass judgments on them.

 

Moreover, people who say "Jay is fine. It's the defense." baffle me. He's the head coach. The buck stops with him. In all six of his years, this has been the defense. The talent changes. The results stay the same. Jay or Bruce hire DCs who call the same passive, conservative game. Haslett = Barry = Manusky. Regardless, a head coach is responsible for the team. If special teams always sucks, if defense always falls apart... even if the offense is world class that hangs on the HC's shoulders. 

 

As always, I end with the disclaimer, I'd love to be wrong.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

And I don't think Manusky should shoulder the majority of the blame for that.

I’m all for a good FO bashing and yes - the hype is always there before they deserve any. 

 

But Manusky is absolutely dreadful and runs an absolutely unimaginative scheme week on and week out.  When his guys simply manhandle the guy in front of them they can look pretty good.  The moment it requires some brains, they look like complete and utter crap.

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Haslett = Barry = Manusky

 

All wildly mediocre to terrible. No one with any other options will come here.

[megared]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The offensive gameplan against Philly was exactly what the doctor ordered. 

 

Completely disagree here.  I seriously doubted his gameplan was to run the ball 23% of the time.  Or have Keenum throw it 44 times.  If you had told me that before the game, I would've assumed we were down 2-3 scores the entire game.  

 

Keenum played as well as you can reasonably expect.  He had no turnovers, pushed the ball, and we still lost.  Fact of the matter is, the more you rely on Keenum to win games, the less likely he is to do so.  Last season for the Broncos he was 2-7 when asked they asked him to throw 35 or more passes in a game.  In the six wins he had on the Broncos last season, he only threw ~29 passes a game.  

 

The offensive line also played beyond expectations.  They only gave up one sack, despite being so one-dimensional.  I don't expect that to be sustainable.

 

Is our strategy really going to be to engage teams in shootouts?  Knowing that our defense is equally likely to give it back?  

[Burgold]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

All wildly mediocre to terrible. No one with any other options will come here.

I think that's true. I believe a big part that though is because everyone in the biz assumes that Jay is on the chopping block and has been the last three years. Who's going to sign up for a lame duck season, knowing they're likely going to be fired the next year? If I were a highly regarded prospect or positional savant, I wouldn't want to attach my fortune to Gruden anymore.

 

Why would you sign on to be the wing man to dead man walking? At best, you get a year's salary (maybe two), but you also have a chance to permanently dim your star and torpedo your rep.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 minutes ago, megared said:

Completely disagree here.  I seriously doubted his gameplan was to run the ball 23% of the time.  Or have Keenum throw it 44 times.  If you had told me that before the game, I would've assumed we were down 2-3 scores the entire game.  

Of course they didn't intend to run it 23% of the time.  But the way the defense played dead made passing so much in the second half a requirement.

 

9 minutes ago, megared said:

Keenum played as well as you can reasonably expect.  He had no turnovers, pushed the ball, and we still lost.  Fact of the matter is, the more you rely on Keenum to win games, the less likely he is to do so.  Last season for the Broncos he was 2-7 when asked they asked him to throw 35 or more passes in a game.  In the six wins he had on the Broncos last season, he only threw ~29 passes a game.  

I don't think the gameplan was to ever have Keenum throw 44 times in the game.  See point above.

 

9 minutes ago, megared said:

The offensive line also played beyond expectations.  They only gave up one sack, despite being so one-dimensional.  I don't expect that to be sustainable.

One sack and a bunch of squandered drives, putting the team into throwing situations, due to their penalties.  Penalties matter A LOT.

 

11 minutes ago, megared said:

Is our strategy really going to be to engage teams in shootouts?  Knowing that our defense is equally likely to give it back?  

The game only becomes a shootout when your defense makes it that way.

[skins4eva]

13 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Well the collapse part is definitely a patented Dan Snyder 20 year trend which has gotten much worse under Gruden.

 

Kinda hilarious when you think about 

Dan Snyder after all these years and all the losing coaches, (even HOF coaches) he ends up with the first guy again, Norv Turner and keeps him just as long as Norv hung around while obviously being subpar.

 

Remember his first game as the owner was the game in 1999 where the Redskins lead 35-14 vs the Cowturds and they come back and win it. It's the same game where we all saw that Dan and Vinny picture losing their minds in their box in the sky.

 

Now we are doomed to watch that sort of rerun year after year after year. Who didn't see the ending before it even happened? Somebody even mentioned Lucy and the football at halftime, it's also why I compare Dan Snyder to Wile E Coyote all the time because you already know the ending but still have to get upset when it happens lol.

 

 

I didn’t quote all of it but this might be my favorite post in all of my time on this board (15 years and counting). You’ve just knocked it out of the park here. Everything you’ve written is on point and shows a deep deep knowledge of the cosmic absurdity of this team. Gruden is a bit like Norv. I actually made that comment to my father while watching the game yesterday. Both men are not holistic coaches. They coach in a vacuum and make decisions that are totally divorced from what the opponent is doing. That’s in part why the second half futility has been Gruden’s one consistent calling card. 

 

I also vividly remember that loss to the Cowboys. Was actually at the US open that day and kept checking the score on one of the TVs inside (before smart phones and streaming internet). To think that Snyder doesn’t have the capacity or emotional intelligence to have figured this out by now is truly astounding and goes to show that he never will. Sadly, we have been condemned to football purgatory for so long as he owns the team.