2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Fresh8686]

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I get the excitement of giving Haskins an ex-teammate especially with McLaurin already here.  I recall back in the day some of us got jazzed with getting for RG3, Terrance Williams and Kendall Wright which didn't end up happening.

 

But getting past that, I can't see how we can want KJ Hill (with all the fish in the sea at WR) without being down on Steve Sims?     IMO we already have a really good slot Wr and heck a decent backup for him, too.  We need an outside receiver who can start at Z and backup up X if necessary.  And I just can't see how a dude who played slot in college and didn't have to defeat press and is under 6 foot, under 200 pounds and runs 4.6 is going to be the dude that naturally converts from slot to being a good outside WR.  

 

In short, I can see Hill develop well as a slot WR in the NFL.  But I think it leaves a lot to the imagination to see him emerge as an outside WR.  And why go through all that trouble and wonder about it when there are so many good outside receivers in this draft that likely fall to our picks in the 3rd and 4th?

 

Exactly, when looking at our team as it is currently constructed, it makes very little sense to spend draft capital on KJ Hil in the 3rd or 4th. Like you said, we are good at slot already unless they are down on Sims, which I haven't heard any rumblings about. KJ isn't going to be a threat on jet sweeps like Sims and if they wanted to replace Sims they'd go with some of the other slot options I mentioned. At least some of those guys like Tyler Johnson can also play on the outside or guys like Duvernay or maybe Joe Reed in the 7th could be Scott's new Curtis Samuels.

[Burgundy Yoda]

Just looking at Jordyn Brooks' production, the thing that jumped out to me was 20.0 TFLs. For a MLB those are absurd numbers, I didn't think he would run as fast as he did at the combine either, I thought he was a mid 4.6 guy but ran a 4.54. He was one of the guys I hoped would fall to us in the 3rd but now we would have to trade up for him most likely. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

Exactly, when looking at our team as it is currently constructed, it makes very little sense to spend draft capital on KJ Hil in the 3rd or 4th. Like you said, we are good at slot already unless they are down on Sims, which I haven't heard any rumblings about. KJ isn't going to be a threat on jet sweeps like Sims and if they wanted to replace Sims they'd go with some of the other slot options I mentioned. At least some of those guys like Tyler Johnson can also play on the outside or guys like Duvernay or maybe Joe Reed in the 7th could be Scott's new Curtis Samuels.

 

Agree, while Duvernay is also more of a natural slot, he's also a speedster and YAC guy.  So if you want to add another slot guy, it would be that type that I'd add since he can add to the backfield motion threat and end arounds/sweeps/handoffs.  KJ Hill has good hands and is good at separating underneath but I don't think he will strike fear in defenses if you see him lined up near the QB and or goes in motion in the backfield.

 

Duvernay actually played outside for his first two years, switched to slot last year.  Hill has always been slot.  Duvernay has almost twice the YAC of Hill.  Duvernay is a much better athlete. 

 

I am not in love with Shenault like some draft geek types are.  But I can see him being a fit with what they already have.  Shenault is a threat coming from the backfield and can play outside. 

4 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

https://www.hogshaven.com/2020/4/9/21215137/redskins-mock-draft-scenario

 

I know it's unrealistic, but I would be so pumped if we came out of the draft with this.  Stay at 2, get chase, and the rest of the way need and BPA seems well aligned. 

 

I think that mock is realistic.  I actually like some of the mocks we came up with here on the thread of late better than that one, though I am a big Ashtyn Davis guy.   I doubt we'd wait that late to pull the trigger on WR and maybe TE, though I don't mind his choices in both spots. 

[RWJ]

Thoughts of WR Ohio St. Binjimen Victor in the 7th round?

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[KDawg]

While I don’t disagree necessarily based on last season... he’s on my pay no mind list due to listing all the team names except ours.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Thoughts of WR Ohio St. Binjimen Victor in the 7th round?

 

I did a quick review on him months back.  He's tall with a long wing span.  Good jump ball guy.  I showcase a couple of nice YAC plays below, and he can break tackles well but he's not a big YAC guy generally.   He's already 23 going on 24.  He's a bit thin, not fast, I wonder if he can beat press.  

 

In the 7th round I'd be OK with it.  But if some other dudes drop there like:  Quez Watkins, Jauan Jennings, Isaiah Coulter, Quartney Davis, Joe Reed -- I'd rather go with one of them over Victor. 

 

 

[KDawg]

30 minutes ago, volsmet said:

We have very little suddenness on the field. 

Our suddenness happens every year by about week 2 when suddenly 60% of our team is on IR

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree, while Duvernay is also more of a natural slot, he's also a speedster and YAC guy.  So if you want to add another slot guy, it would be that type that I'd add since he can add to the backfield motion threat and end arounds/sweeps/handoffs.  KJ Hill has good hands and is good at separating underneath but I don't think he will strike fear in defenses if you see him lined up near the QB and or goes in motion in the backfield.

 

Duvernay actually played outside for his first two years, switched to slot last year.  Hill has always been slot.  Duvernay has almost twice the YAC of Hill.  Duvernay is a much better athlete. 

 

I think that mock is realistic.  I actually like some of the mocks we came up with here on the thread of late better than that one, though I am a big Ashtyn Davis guy.   I doubt we'd wait that late to pull the trigger on WR and maybe TE, though I don't mind his choices in both spots. 

I dislike that mock. 
 

Prince and Davion Taylor. May as well add Terrence Steele just to kick me in the nuts again.

 

RE: Slots...

 

Duvernay is twice the receiver Hill is, imo.

[Fresh8686]

@Skinsinparadise I feel you. I like Shenault if he can recover from his core muscle injuries and get back to his 2018 version of play, but I wonder how he'll hold up in the NFL. When I do grading next year, I'm going to add a resiliency column to properly capture that in scores for guys like him.  I'm grading each receiver using 21 different variables this time around that I average out for a total score and then do two more separate averages to capture variance between Base and Supplemental traits. 

 

Right now, he's my 10th Ranked WR with a total score of 6.85, with a Base Traits Avg of 6.96 and Supplemental Traits Avg. of 6.69 (A score of 6 is Starter with Potential or Spot Starter, a score of 7 is Immediate Starter).

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Fresh8686 said:

@Skinsinparadise I feel you. I like Shenault if he can recover from his core muscle injuries and get back to his 2018 version of play, but I wonder how he'll hold up in the NFL. When I do grading next year, I'm going to add a resiliency column to properly capture that in scores for guys like him.  I'm grading each receiver using 21 different variables this time around that I average out for a total score and then do two more separate averages to capture variance between Base and Supplemental traits. 

 

Right now, he's my 10th Ranked WR with a total score of 6.85, with a Base Traits Avg of 6.96 and Supplemental Traits Avg. of 6.69 (A score of 6 is Starter with Potential or Spot Starter, a score of 7 is Immediate Starter).

You’re a gem. That’s a lot of work. I thought about doing that but then I had a decision... 2 - 3 positions with that much detail or all the positions. I chose all the positions because zero shot I can do that break down for all of em. Even one is crazy.

 

You are a legend.

[Fresh8686]

Just now, KDawg said:

You’re a gem. That’s a lot of work. I thought about doing that but then I had a decision... 2 - 3 positions with that much detail or all the positions. I chose all the positions because zero shot I can do that break down for all of em. Even one is crazy.

 

You are a legend.

 

Lol, I had the same process as you and just went the other direction. I've got 55 receivers I'm trying to grade this way with more and more getting added every time I turn around. I think I'll only be able to get through them and my 50 CB's before the draft comes around.

 

But, thanks man, I appreciate it. I'm just a beginner in this and gotta grind so my evaluation skills will adapt and develop. It'll probably take another year or two before my system is really worth a **** to be honest.

[KDawg]

Just now, Fresh8686 said:

 

Lol, I had the same process as you and just went the other direction. I've got 55 receivers I'm trying to grade this way with more and more getting added every time I turn around. I think I'll only be able to get through them and my 50 CB's before the draft comes around.

 

But, thanks man, I appreciate it. I'm just a beginner in this and gotta grind so my evaluation skills will adapt and develop. It'll probably take another year or two before my system is really worth a **** to be honest.

That’s just awesome. I found 40-50 prospects at CB/WR/IOL/OT/DT and I said eff it. I can’t do it that way.

 

I mean, I’d love to get into this stuff for a living. Then I’d have time to do full breakdowns. Would be a heck of a way to bring in the cash too... **** I already do and make some money. 

 

Would be fun to do it with you guys as a think tank if we could get it organized

 

Or I’ll keep doing it for funsies. I just have to come up with a system I can actually maintain.

[Est.1974]

43 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Just looking at Jordyn Brooks' production, the thing that jumped out to me was 20.0 TFLs. For a MLB those are absurd numbers, I didn't think he would run as fast as he did at the combine either, I thought he was a mid 4.6 guy but ran a 4.54. He was one of the guys I hoped would fall to us in the 3rd but now we would have to trade up for him most likely. 

the knock on Brooks, from memory, is that he gets stuck on blockers when they get to him at the second level....but behind this DL we’ve got, and with his athletic ability, could step right in and contribute at MLB. Long term starter potential.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

One thing I'm worried about with Tyler Johnson, is that I think he might turn out to be Slot only in the Pro's.  His ceiling is unclear, which benefits him over KJ Hill.  There's a chance Johnson can be more than just Slot.  From a valuation perspective, someone whose Slot only (Hill) gets bumped a full round grade lower for me than someone who profiles as Slot + maybe something else.  I would not draft KJ Hill before the 6th round.  There's too many other quality players to take instead of loading up on Slot guys (Sims, Quinn, and then Hill).

 

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

I firmly disagree.  I'm down on Harmon, but really high on Sims, and think McLaurin is already a legit #1 option.  Going to tout Sims here.  For awhile he was viewed as just a returner, and then as just a gadget guy on offense (end-arounds, fakes, etc).  By the time the coaching staff started slowly realizing that Quinn wasn't capable of doing it, most of the season was already over.  Sims snap count began slowly increasing in the last 6 games, and only really picked up in the last 4 games as Quinn got a concussion.

 

During the last 5 games, he's the second most productive rookie WR in the NFL.  Behind AJ Brown.  That's it.

 

											Receiving
Rk	Player	Pos	Age	Year	Lg	Tm	G	W	L	T	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Ctch%	Y/Tgt
1	A.J. Brown	WR	22	2019	NFL	OTI	5	3	2	0	34	21	470	22.38	4	61.8%	13.82
2	Steven Sims	WR	22	2019	NFL	WAS	5	1	4	0	40	23	259	11.26	4	57.5%	6.48
3	Darius Slayton	WR	22	2019	NFL	NYG	5	2	3	0	31	17	279	16.41	3	54.8%	9.00
4	Diontae Johnson	WR	23	2019	NFL	PIT	5	2	3	0	36	24	271	11.29	2	66.7%	7.53
5	Terry McLaurin	WR	24	2019	NFL	WAS	4	1	3	0	25	18	281	15.61	2	72.0%	11.24
6	D.K. Metcalf	WR	21	2019	NFL	SEA	5	2	3	0	30	20	270	13.50	2	66.7%	9.00

 

If you want to extend this to all WR's, including veterans then it looks like this over the last 4 games (with a 200 receiving yard minimum, or 50 a game).

 

											Receiving
Rk	Player	Pos	Age	Year	Lg	Tm	G	W	L	T	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Ctch%	Y/Tgt
1	Breshad Perriman	WR	26	2019	NFL	TAM	4	2	2	0	31	20	419	20.95	5	64.5%	13.52
2	A.J. Brown	WR	22	2019	NFL	OTI	4	2	2	0	30	18	425	23.61	4	60.0%	14.17
3	Cooper Kupp	WR	26	2019	NFL	RAM	4	2	2	0	24	21	216	10.29	4	87.5%	9.00
4	Steven Sims	WR	22	2019	NFL	WAS	4	0	4	0	36	20	230	11.50	4	55.6%	6.39
5	Jamison Crowder	WR	26	2019	NFL	NYJ	4	3	1	0	36	21	245	11.67	3	58.3%	6.81
6	Michael Gallup	WR	23	2019	NFL	DAL	4	2	2	0	31	17	311	18.29	3	54.8%	10.03
7	DeVante Parker	WR	26	2019	NFL	MIA	4	2	2	0	35	19	348	18.32	3	54.3%	9.94
8	Darius Slayton	WR	22	2019	NFL	NYG	4	2	2	0	22	11	235	21.36	3	50.0%	10.68
9	Michael Thomas	WR	26	2019	NFL	NOR	4	3	1	0	53	39	435	11.15	3	73.6%	8.21
10	Davante Adams	WR	26	2019	NFL	GNB	4	4	0	0	48	31	353	11.39	2	64.6%	7.35

 

If there was a slot guy who could run routes and separate like this against NFL competition...I'd be going bonkers to draft them at our next pick after Chase Young.  Look at the head fake he puts on that route, his whole body is turning towards the pylon and then he plants, reverses direction, and accelerates in a small window.  That's not common.

 

I firmly believe Sims and McLaurin are both 1,000+ yard WR's in the NFL.  And probably as early as next season.  I think we got REALLY DAMN lucky with somehow nabbing both of them.

 

And just so I'm not accused of being a crazy homer, Harmon I'm down on.  And I think our TE group is bad.  Our receiving options on this team feature 2 good players, but that's about it.

[volsmet]

It would be interesting to see everybody’s top guy or 3 at each position along with a mid round sleeper, late round & perhaps an udfa target. 
 

*

[RWJ]

11 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I firmly disagree.  I'm down on Harmon, but really high on Sims, and think McLaurin is already a legit #1 option.  Going to tout Sims here.  For awhile he was viewed as just a returner, and then as just a gadget guy on offense (end-arounds, fakes, etc).  By the time the coaching staff started slowly realizing that Quinn wasn't capable of doing it, most of the season was already over.  Sims snap count began slowly increasing in the last 6 games, and only really picked up in the last 4 games as Quinn got a concussion.

 

If there was a slot guy who could run routes and separate like this against NFL competition...I'd be going bonkers to draft them at our next pick after Chase Young.  Look at the head fake he puts on that route, his whole body is turning towards the pylon and then he plants, reverses direction, and accelerates in a small window.  That's not common.

 

I firmly believe Sims and McLaurin are both 1,000+ yard WR's in the NFL.  And probably as early as next season.  I think we got REALLY DAMN lucky with somehow nabbing both of them.

 

 

I agree with what your saying about McLaurin and Sims but also think Harmon was just starting to come into his own at the end of the season last year.  I don't know about 1000 yards for Sims but I do expect a lot of yards and TDs.  Harmon is a red-zone threat along with nice open space threat too.  Harmon has great hands.  Keep an eye on him this year too.

[Fresh8686]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

That’s just awesome. I found 40-50 prospects at CB/WR/IOL/OT/DT and I said eff it. I can’t do it that way.

 

I mean, I’d love to get into this stuff for a living. Then I’d have time to do full breakdowns. Would be a heck of a way to bring in the cash too... **** I already do and make some money. 

 

Would be fun to do it with you guys as a think tank if we could get it organized

 

Or I’ll keep doing it for funsies. I just have to come up with a system I can actually maintain.

 

Lol, I feel you it can be a lot. I'll need to start much earlier next year if I want to have any hope in hell of reviewing every position.

 

But yea, it'd be cool as hell to see an ES Draft Conglomerate arrive on the scene. I'd be down for something like that, depending on how it all came together.

 

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's interesting to see Javon Kinlaw placed ahead of Derrick Brown. I wonder if NFL Teams will feel the same way? Do they see Brown as having less pass rush upside compared to Kinlaw in the NFL?

[HTTRDynasty]

21 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I firmly disagree.  I'm down on Harmon, but really high on Sims, and think McLaurin is already a legit #1 option.  Going to tout Sims here.  For awhile he was viewed as just a returner, and then as just a gadget guy on offense (end-arounds, fakes, etc).  By the time the coaching staff started slowly realizing that Quinn wasn't capable of doing it, most of the season was already over.  Sims snap count began slowly increasing in the last 6 games, and only really picked up in the last 4 games as Quinn got a concussion.

 

During the last 5 games, he's the second most productive rookie WR in the NFL.  Behind AJ Brown.  That's it.

 

 

You're preaching to the choir on Sims my man.  I'm in complete agreement with you.  I posted that tweet more to show what the national perception of our WR corps seems to be, not what I personally believe.

 

Sims is electric, and I think he can soon become one of the best slot WRs in the league... especially in Turner's offense, which utilizes pre-snap motion at an extremely high rate.  I have a hard time deciding which scoring play from him last season I like most - the gif you posted, or these two:

 

 

 

 

He's also already one of the best kick returners in the league.

 

I agree that we desperately need upgrades at (outside) WR2 and at TE1.

[KDawg]

22 minutes ago, volsmet said:

It would be interesting to see everybody’s top guy or 3 at each position along with a mid round sleeper, late round & perhaps an udfa target. 
 

*

We should do that in a separate thread. Next week have the regular draftnik types or anyone really, give a write up on their top guys in each position plus a wild card that they want to highlight. We could come up with a format and have everyone stick to it and see the consensus. Would be fun as hell.

3 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

Lol, I feel you it can be a lot. I'll need to start much earlier next year if I want to have any hope in hell of reviewing every position.

 

But yea, it'd be cool as hell to see an ES Draft Conglomerate arrive on the scene. I'd be down for something like that, depending on how it all came together.

 

 

 

It's interesting to see Javon Kinlaw placed ahead of Derrick Brown. I wonder if NFL Teams will feel the same way? Do they see Brown as having less pass rush upside compared to Kinlaw in the NFL?

I think some of those are off the wall. 
 

PFF’s, too. 
 

Especially at IDL

[KDawg]

So format could be:

 

Position:

1. Name, School: Reason

2. Name, School: Reason

3. Name, School: Reason

Wild Card: Name, School: Reason

 

etc. Someone diligent can collect all of them in a spreadsheet and see the General ES consensus

 

Or people can send them to one source and get that spreadsheet compiled. I could do it. Post the results as a thread after, and everyone can post their own afterwards in the thread.

[volsmet]

 

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So format could be:

 

Position:

1. Name, School: Reason

2. Name, School: Reason

3. Name, School: Reason

Wild Card: Name, School: Reason

 

etc. Someone diligent can collect all of them in a spreadsheet and see the General ES consensus

 

Or people can send them to one source and get that spreadsheet compiled. I could do it. Post the results as a thread after, and everyone can post their own afterwards in the thread.

 

 

 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

One thing I'm worried about with Tyler Johnson, is that I think he might turn out to be Slot only in the Pro's.  His ceiling is unclear, which benefits him over KJ Hill.  There's a chance Johnson can be more than just Slot.  From a valuation perspective, someone whose Slot only (Hill) gets bumped a full round grade lower for me than someone who profiles as Slot + maybe something else.  I would not draft KJ Hill before the 6th round.  There's too many other quality players to take instead of loading up on Slot guys (Sims, Quinn, and then Hill).

 

 

I firmly disagree.  I'm down on Harmon, but really high on Sims, and think McLaurin is already a legit #1 option.  Going to tout Sims here.  For awhile he was viewed as just a returner, and then as just a gadget guy on offense (end-arounds, fakes, etc).  By the time the coaching staff started slowly realizing that Quinn wasn't capable of doing it, most of the season was already over.  Sims snap count began slowly increasing in the last 6 games, and only really picked up in the last 4 games as Quinn got a concussion.

 

During the last 5 games, he's the second most productive rookie WR in the NFL.  Behind AJ Brown.  That's it.

 

I agree people are really underrating Sims and doubting McLaurin.  Terry is my favorite player, but sometimes I wish he was a little more mouthy.  Not enough people respect what he did his rookie year.  That dirty hit in the game before his last game cost him his 1000 yard benchmark.

[KDawg]

Alright...

 

So here's how we'll do it.

 

By the end of Friday, April 17th, everyone that wants to participate PM me your list of top prospects.

 

Here's the format:

 

Position:

1. Name, School

2. Name, School

3. Name, School

Wild Card: Name, School

 

Here are the positional groups:

 

Quarterbacks

Running backs

Wide Receivers

Slot/Gadget Receivers

Guard

Center

Tackles

Tight End

Edge

Interior DL

Inside Backer

Outside Backer

Safety

Corner

 

How I'll tally it up:

 

5 pts for a 1st place vote

3 pts for a 2nd place vote

2 pts for a 3rd place vote

1 pt for a wild card vote

 

A wild card does NOT have to be the 4th ranked guy on your board. It can be anyone you're intrigued with. Value picks, etc. You also do not need to have a wild card.

 

Please submit your list for each position.

 

I will compile and put together the consensus OP. Then, from the DM you send me, your list will be saved and formatted correctly (hopefully). Once the thread is posted you can post your own breakdowns in it. 

 

Now, the twist:

 

Please also submit your overall top 20 players in the draft. Some of these guys may not appear in your top 3 lists, depending on some factors.

 

Format:

 

1. Name, School, Position

2. Same as above

all the way to 20. 

 

1st place is 20 pts, 20th place is 1 pt. 

 

So in your PM you will have:

 

Positions top 3 + a Wild Card (Wild card not required)

 

Overall Top 20.

 

Reasons don't need to be given in the PM, but should be when you post it for discussion reasons

 

And then, after the thread is posted, you will post your own list that you sent in (no changes please!) for conversation with reasons for each selection. Can be brief or in depth. 

 

I'm going to tag some people, and I KNOW I'm forgetting some. But everyone reading this: You are MORE than welcome to participate. This is an ES event. Just make sure your entries are complete to the criteria above.

 

@stevemcqueen1 @volsmet @Fresh8686 @Anselmheifer @Skinsinparadise @HTTRDynasty @Alcoholic Zebra @RWJ @Morrison J @COWBOY-KILLA-@drowland @murphys4life @bedlamVR @PartyPosse @duffy @skinny21 @KillBill26 @Chump Bailey @Skin'emAlive@DWinzit @Burgundy Yoda @JamesMadisonSkins

@actorguy1

 

Again, Deadline is next Friday at midnight. I'll post the thread sometime Saturday or Sunday the 18th or 19th.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

The CEH RB1 thing from Ledyard is borderline hysterical. After that combine he shouldn't be top 4, let alone #1. Before the combine I heard scouts were comparing him to Brian Westbrook, then he totally ---- the bed at the combine and that was that. I'm curious if that's Ledyard's view, or if like Kiper and McShay, the list is at least partially related to contacts in the league and a projection of where he expects players to go. 

 

The verdict is in on the RB class and it's an emphatic:

 

Tier 1:

1. J. Taylor

2. D. Swift

 

Tier 2:

3. JK Dobbins

4. C. Akers

 

Tier 3:

5. CEH

 

CEH has zero business being #1 on anyone's list after his athletic testing, other than draft pedigree, a RB's 40, three cone, burst drills, production #'s more or less in that order are the best predictors of future success w/a nod to BMI/reaching certain size requirements. CEH came in small and unathletic, he also broke out very, very late. That is not true of any of the Big 4.