Nazis showing up at places uninvited.

[Bonez3]

Wow... Some of the tone in here is deaf. I haven't heard one peep from anyone about ignore. The strategy to submerge this group is what I would debate. But never mind because...

 

'Facism, Europe, ISIS, Any means necessary...' OK, and I'm officially out and of course regret posting. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bonez3

[TradeTheBeal!]

5 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

Wow... Some of the tone in here is deaf. I haven't heard one peep from anyone about ignore. The strategy to submerge this group is what I would debate. But never mind because...

 

'Facism, Europe, ISIS, Any means necessary...' OK, and I'm officially out and of course regret posting. 

 

Your advice to others regarding Nazi rallies was to "not be there".  Glad to see you taking your own advice.

[Llevron]

28 minutes ago, Burgold said:

As I said, this is a tough one. I have a lot of sympathy for your point of view. The idealist in me that really believes in what I think this country was built around accepts that there is evil within freedom of speech as well as much good.

 

I dont disagree with you. I mean I do, but I dont. If conflicting so I totally get you dude. 

[Fresh8686]

4 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think the danger of their "Unite the Right" rhetoric is that they are tyring to pull off the idea that their idea is mainstream that the whole of the right will follow him. That's just one more reason why condemnation and resistance from the right is necessary.

It's probably a pretty good idea for the people on the right to say, "Hell no. **** off! There's no way we are going to unite with you. There's no way your are one of us or we are one of you!"

 

It's probably something that shouldn't need to be said, but it's something that ought to be said.

I'd say it needs to be said from the lens of re-building trust and unifying the country again. Those two things have to happen and I'd rather not have it be another tragedy like 9/11 uniting the country, especially since that was an us against them dynamic with connotations of conflict attributed to radical Islam which unfortunately could and often did easily spill over into wholesale prejudice and xenophobia. Human decency and a repudiation of racism, facism, blind hate, and false superiority could be an even greater way to unify.

That's part of the problem so many people had with Trump's initial statement regarding Charlotesville and what some don't understand when people weren't satisfied with his "clarification" yesterday. He not only missed out on the opportunity to re-build that trust and unite the nation around human decency, he destroyed that trust even more. And each person who carries water for him and tries to spin his intention, unknowingly degrades it as well and does so in a way that diminishes any hope that they can pull themselves from their defensiveness or agenda long enough to put the effort in to see and feel what the people hurt by this are actually going through.

Earlier in this thread a couple guys wrote some meaningful accounts of how they changed from "heritage not hate" and I'd say each of those instances involved taking the above effort and creating that change within themselves. Renewing the trust and hope in their own small way that yes people can change and update their beliefs and narratives if presented with substantive information. That hope and trust is key to having any sort of meaningful dialog with a person rather than conflict.

At it's most basic level that is what determines the direction of either dialog or conflict. How much trust do people have that the person their communicating with will change their views and behaviors if given substantive and authentic information to do so? And when you have a country that can't even agree on what's real or fake, and build trust from there, we have a real problem. And when you also have a portion of the country that rejects any effort towards that end of communication and re-unification we have another big problem. Both of which create a breeding ground for the escalation of violence and the further diminishment of trust and communal bonds.

**** sucks man. This whole country really could use a crash course in trust-building. Not just how to build it, but how to protect and sustain it across all facets of life.

[Dan T.]

9 hours ago, Destino said:

Thanks for posting that.  It's chilling to see them talk about their movement and its aims.  I'm impressed by that reporter.  She was in some scary places with some crazy people and managed to stay medium.    

 

The cut-away shots of her facial expressions told me a story.  And that is that she was showing remarkable restraint listening to all that bull****.  Maybe I'm projecting, but to me her eyes belied the blank expression.  I saw disgust and revulsion in those eyes. 

 

Did anybody catch her name? Because that was some excellent journalism.

[PleaseBlitz]

The strategy of physical confrontation used last Saturday was a complete failure on all counts. I know people's gut reaction is to get out there and punch some Nazis (not withstanding the fact that nobody here actually did that), but the fact is that Charlottesville was a tremendous day for a minor fringe hate group:  they got 3 or 4 entire news cycles devoted to them, the ****ing President had their backs, their show of force looked pretty forceful. They got everything they could have wanted. It was sad to watch. 

 

This isnt 1930s Germany. We arent in the Great Depression. Fascism isnt taking over. The fuel for these "movements" is attention. Trump has brought them a ton of that. Minimize it and you starve them of oxygen. 

[Bang]

Here's some other photos of counter-protesters being violent against these people.

 

Here's the leader of the counter demonstrators instigating his followers to violence against these people and what they believe.

 

Here we see an armed African American threatening obviously peaceful demonstrators.

 

This photo clearly shows that the counter protesters came agitated and spoiling for trouble.

 

Here one of the counter protesters has injured himself by attacking what had been a peaceful Atlantic wall

 

And here are a bunch of counter protesters who liked the French oceanside so much they never left.

 

~Bang

[SoulSkin]

4 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

The cut-away shots of her facial expressions told me a story.  And that is that she was showing remarkable restraint listening to all that bull****.  Maybe I'm projecting, but to me her eyes belied the blank expression.  I saw disgust and revulsion in those eyes. 

 

Did anybody catch her name? Because that was some excellent journalism.

 

Elle Reeve http://www.hbo.com/vice/cast-and-crew/elle-reeve/index.html  Vice is so good. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

15 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

I don't know when any issue has been confronted and solved by pretending it doesn't exist and minimizing it's reality.

 

Thousands of mostly young white men have been joining this extremist movement for years now. In terms of their online presence, there are millions of them who are active in these online communities.

 

I think it was necessary for America to see what's going on with a segment of our society that isn't integrating into normal society and is instead joining a violent, extremist movement.

 

I agree to a certain extent, but the fact that they've hit the mainstream now and have been heard only adds fuel to the fire. I'd bet that their recruiting numbers have spiked over the past week and that's certainly not good.  Giving them attention is the validation that they seek and being on the front page of major news outlets gives them a higher profile.  

 

I didn't know who Richard Spencer was until a few days ago.  I assumed that he was some dumb hick.

 

But he's not.  People like to poke fun at these guys and call them uneducated, etc...but this guy went to Duke, IIRC.  Went to UVA.   He's upped his profile this past week or so which doesn't effect someone like you or me who rejects this stuff but for the people out there who have racist thoughts and feelings and don't have anyone to look to, now they have someone.  And he's educated.  And he's good looking.  And he speaks well.  And he's charismatic.  He's the perfect white pride storm for someone who doesn't have a clue to get behind.

 

I can't get behind giving that guy a second of airtime, anywhere.  Sure, he's got his social media but so does everyone else.  But to have that guy on a major media outlet?  No way, that's not good.  

2 minutes ago, Bang said:

Here's some other photos of counter-protesters being violent against these people.

 

 

~Bang

 

I wanted to add one:

 

 

[LD0506]

Bang can have my entire allotment of likes for the day.

 

 

[LadySkinsFan]

I'm out of likes again today.

[thebluefood]

To go along with what I said earlier (regarding Cable Street and general, domestic and civilian resistance to fascism): 

"NO PASARAN!"

Edited August 15, 2017 by thebluefood

[Hersh]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

The strategy of physical confrontation used last Saturday was a complete failure on all counts. I know people's gut reaction is to get out there and punch some Nazis (not withstanding the fact that nobody here actually did that), but the fact is that Charlottesville was a tremendous day for a minor fringe hate group:  they got 3 or 4 entire news cycles devoted to them, the ****ing President had their backs, their show of force looked pretty forceful. They got everything they could have wanted. It was sad to watch. 

 

This isnt 1930s Germany. We arent in the Great Depression. Fascism isnt taking over. The fuel for these "movements" is attention. Trump has brought them a ton of that. Minimize it and you starve them of oxygen. 

 

Totally disagree. Trump (and other politicians) get exposed because of it, more attention is paid to the fact the the administration moved to divert funds away from investing these groups and it galvanizes/unifies people on the other side of it.  

[Riggo-toni]

16 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

Did anybody catch her name? Because that was some excellent journalism.

Was this the blonde reporter from Vice News?

I recommend to everyone who has access to HBO On Demand to watch yesterday's (Monday) Vice News Tonight. Their news team seems to have been more prescient about how events might unfold than anyone in charge. She interviewed nutbags on their way to the rally, at the rally, and then they got footage of the violence, and interviews with residents.  Incredible coverage from start to finish.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Riggo-toni

[Larry]

59 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 You think they would let ISIS walk through the streets of DC?

 

I would.  

 

But then, I'm one of those crazy ACLU types.  

 

You know, an American.  

[LD0506]

To me it is not and never has been a question of violence vs nonviolence, anger vs nonager, etc., it is a question of morality, of never offering it or starting it, even in words. But when we see this, an armed, organized group that is calling for the overthrow of the system, a group that flies in the face of anything decent or justifiable, a group that is at its very heart a repudiation of everything that this country was ever supposed to stand for, then I am afraid it is justified. Righteous anger, the motivation that comes from seeing this revolting display in our midst.

 

I honestly believe, if you have core beliefs of decency and humanity, that you should be dragged kicking and screaming to the point of violence, physically taking action ought to be THE last resort. These vermin have me by the ankles dragging me to that point, I don't give one large **** what their intention or motivation is, their goals don't interest me, I don't have one iota of sympathy or empathy or understanding for why they have chosen (chosen!) to be this openly and overtly broken, I just know that they pose a threat to me, my family, my friends and neighbors, my country and my society.

 

If you find this hyperbolic or extreme, dramatic for drama's sake, that's fine, I don't go around trying to convince anyone of anything as a rule, but you'll catch up.

[Dan T.]

I do understand the argument for ignoring the protest rather than aggressively confronting it.  I'm not sure I agree with it in these times.  These groups have been emboldened.  And make no mistake, in no small measure did the rhetoric of Donald Trump's Presidential campaign embolden them.  That hot dog cook from Berkeley chatting with his storm trooper pals felt safe and validated behind his computer and in his little bubble.  That bubble burst in Charlottesville. 

~~~

 But here's an approach I can whole-heartedly endorse: Tubas and ridicule:

 

 

1 hour ago, SoulSkin said:

 

Elle Reeve http://www.hbo.com/vice/cast-and-crew/elle-reeve/index.html  Vice is so good. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dan T.

[Riggo-toni]

Ah ok. I thought that must be of whom you were speaking, but after parsing back a couple of pages, I couldn't find the post you were quoting.

My apologies for what I guess was a redundant post.

[PleaseBlitz]

12 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Totally disagree. Trump (and other politicians) get exposed because of it, more attention is paid to the fact the the administration moved to divert funds away from investing these groups and it galvanizes/unifies people on the other side of it.  

 

Trump got "exposed" because of it?  What does that even mean?  It's been clear for 2 years that he is the most favored candidate of white supremacists, and he loves them back. Nothing was exposed, it was reinforced. 

 

This is a hate group. It needs conflict to exist. Galvanizing people on the other side is not a bad thing for them. What is a good thing for them is the extraordinary amount of attention they got, which will swell its ranks and embolden it. That is a very bad outcome. 

 

 

Edit:  LOVE the tubas and ridicule approach. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by PleaseBlitz

[Dan T.]

7 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

Was this the blonde reporter from Vice News?

I recommend to everyone who has access to HBO On Demand to watch yesterday's (Monday) Vice News Tonight.

 

Hey Riggo it was posted on the previous page.  Excellent journalism.  And an eye opening look into the mindset of these people.

[The Evil Genius]

This is the tip of the iceberg if they do follow through and come to Berkeley. Say what you might about the Bay Area, but those ****ers are going to get destroyed by both the students and residents of that town.. but more likely the very large Oakland  and Richmond populations that are basically next door. 

 

I'd expect the National Guard would be needed to protect those tiki carrying goobers.

 

Btw, these groups have been largely ignored for years while they marched in Podunk town after Podunk town. They didn't go away. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by The Evil Genius

[LD0506]

Kudos to tuba guy but dammit learn how to use a phonecam! Turn that **** sideways, landscape not portrait!

[Llevron]

You guys really cant believe that if you just leave these people alone they will go away. This has been proven time and time again in history. What makes you think its any different now? I cannot understand that line of thinking. 

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

I think the danger of their "Unite the Right" rhetoric is that they are tyring to pull off the idea that their idea is mainstream that the whole of the right will follow him. That's just one more reason why condemnation and resistance from the right is necessary.

 

Oh, I think that the increased openness of such movements says a lot more.  

 

These people are doing this because they think the 2016 election proves that most of America agrees with them.  After all, their Guy won the election.  

 

Part of the problem is, they're partially right.  For every person out there in the street behind a Nazi flag, there's thousands of people who actually support many of the policies that the marchers like.  They just don't like the Nazi flag.  (And they think that because they don;t like the Nazi flag, therefore wanting the government to kick out all the non-Christians doesn't make them racist.  '

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

You guys really cant believe that if you just leave these people alone they will go away. This has been proven time and time again in history. What makes you think its any different now? I cannot understand that line of thinking. 

 

Because they're the fringe.  They won't ever completely go away, 100% but it's different than an entire country with a fascist dicta...wait....

 

Obviously that's a joke but they don't represent a majority in any way, shape or form.  

Edited August 15, 2017 by Spaceman Spiff