Nazis showing up at places uninvited.

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

I have such little regard for Donald Trump that I can foresee him triggering a national crisis when he refuses to concede defeat in the 2020 election.  His pathological egomania will fuel his resistance, and he will once again spout false claims of voter fraud which will be enough for those remaining ignorant loyalists to wrap themselves in a  cloak of legitimacy.

 

If that happens, I say we ignore him and hope he goes away.

[BornaSkinsFan83]

11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

If that happens, I say we ignore him and hope he goes away.

 

Works everytime! 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Just now, BornaSkinsFan83 said:

 

Works everytime! 

 

Just like Colt .45!

[BornaSkinsFan83]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

The strategy of physical confrontation used last Saturday was a complete failure on all counts. I know people's gut reaction is to get out there and punch some Nazis (not withstanding the fact that nobody here actually did that), but the fact is that Charlottesville was a tremendous day for a minor fringe hate group:  they got 3 or 4 entire news cycles devoted to them, the ****ing President had their backs, their show of force looked pretty forceful. They got everything they could have wanted. It was sad to watch. 

 

This isnt 1930s Germany. We arent in the Great Depression. Fascism isnt taking over. The fuel for these "movements" is attention. Trump has brought them a ton of that. Minimize it and you starve them of oxygen. 

 

You don't understand this movement. And you don't understand white supremacists. I'm sorry but you just don't. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by BornaSkinsFan83

[TheGoodBits]

I'm not sure what the answer here is. 

 

On one hand, I guarantee you that meeting these Nazis in the streets will lead to more violence, and it will continue to escalate. 

 

On the other hand, these are the kind of people that are prone to violence regardless of provocation. So one would think it wise to be prepared to defend yourself, your town, your neighbors. 

 

I don't really see "just ignore them" as a feasible option. Just because, good luck coordinating that strategy among thousands of local citizens when their town is being invaded by fascists that are backed by the president of the United States. 

 

I do think it would be wise for liberals to organize some sort of defense league, a counter militia if you will. At some point, a continually emboldened, well armed fascist organization is likely to start killing people on a large scale. I don't want to see people like the counter protestors in Charlottesville being mowed down by these lunatics. I'm hesitant to say I think this hypothetical organization should open carry across the street from Nazis, because that may be the spark that sets off a large conflict. But having some sort of group that sits back a bit and just has protesters backs in case **** hits the fan would make me feel better.

 

There are tens of thousands of far right militia types (or people that have a lot of guns and sympathize with these people). They are better equipped than most police forces in this country. Allowing them free reign to continue to organize unchecked is a recipe for disaster. 

[The Evil Genius]

I swear I'm not a violent person. Don't own or even want to own guns. But count me in the group that thinks these douches need a good kicking in their Nazis (MOD edit) when they show up. White nationaliat prima donnas too. I hate that I actually hope more people come to that realization. But it may be the only thing that wipes those sniveling idjits off the map.

 

(MOD edit - lets keep it clean folks with the female reproductive organ talk)

[Llevron]

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I've said repeatedly, repeatedly, that not physically fighting these people in the strrets is not the same as "just ignore it and it will go away."  The fact that people keep saying these are the only 2 options leads me to believe that they know their argument sucks and need to rely on strawmen. I know you can do better, I've seen many of your other posts. 

 

25 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I do want to know, however, what you think we should do.

 

??? I asked you what we should do. I mean.....what else was I supposed to do. Yea you said we shouldn't do nothing and we shouldn't fight. So whats wrong with me asking what you think we should do. Up until now I dont think you have provided any other solution. If i missed it my bad. But I aint seen it. For the record I also said NOT to fight them and that the law should handle it. So lets get past this point. Im not saying what you seem to think I am (beat them in the streets, though I would like that) and your not saying what I think you are (leave them alone and watch). Ok? 

 

 

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Re: the history book crack, thats just ****ing stupid. 2017 America is not the same as 1933 Germany. Kind of a lot has changed. The fact that you are making that comparison leads me to believe that youve never read a history book and that you think history only exists so that your life, special snowflake, has context. 

 

Woo! I see I touch a nerve there lol. OK bet. You know what hasn't changed from 1933 to 2017. Nazi's lol. I mean you are making it too easy now. Compose yourself I was really just trying to talk to you and understand. Im not trying to be a dick. My point is that history tells us what happens if you ignore these clowns. All it takes is for a few of them to sneak into power (like, ya know, now) and this **** can go off the damn rails in a few years. (like, ya know, now) 

 

Why i gotta be a snowflake lls? I know you can do better. I have seen many of your posts. Chill on the defensiveness. As far as I see it we are on the same side of the coin here just have a different view from our seats. If i offended you i didnt mean it. Seriously no bull**** my bad. 

 

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

This isnt a matter of getting to "no nazis."  

 

It should be though 

 

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

There have been Nazis since the 30s and the Klan for forever in our country. They ebb and flow depending on a bunch of societal factors. The goal here is to keep them a fringe movement, not a mainstream contingency. Trump is obviously the worst thing that could have happened. Can't change what happened. But Every time thay win a news cycle, they gain attention, legitimacy and normalcy. They win news cycles by causing chaos. 

 

We marginalize them by letting them have their pointless rallies without them becoming national events. Afterwards, we talk and write about how pointless it was and how stupid and un-American their beliefs are. We elect people who actually find their beliefs abhorrent. We teach our kids that they are bad and sad people. 

 

Why cant we marginalize them like we have African Americans? Bad media is the easiest and most relevant example. Make them out to be the monsters that they are. Bring up individual criminal history. Super predators and what not. They are the bad guys, why not act like it? The problem, I think, with your approach is that we have done this for decades and it hasn't worked, at all. They are thriving right now and they were able to do so largely because they were ignored until they were able to find someone like Stephen Miller to follow their beliefs and validate them on a national level. The best thing you can do for your enemy is to constantly underestimate them. Again, history has already taught us this lesson. Multiple times. 

 

Look at all the white supremacists we have in office. And this seemingly came out of no place. What do you think is going to happen now that they have basically taken over on of the major branches of the government? They are just gonna go away? I dont think you are thinking about the whole picture here. 

 

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Your strategy of beating them into the ground wont work.

 

55 minutes ago, Llevron said:

And we could beat them into the ground if we had to. But I dont advocate fighting a war in our streets, no. I dont believe thats what I have been calling for.  

 

Second time I have had to quote myself....in response to something you said I said when you already quoted me not saying that. Please dont do that. I wont do it to you. Didnt you accuse me of making a strawman? Lol

 

 

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

These guys have been beaten up their whole lives, it's why they joined a hate group.

 

By who? And when? They are Nazi's because they were beaten up their whole lives? Dawg! 

 

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I would love for the police to just silence them, sometimes the First Amendment is a mother****er. Should we suspend the First Amendment?  While Trump is in office, no less?  

 

Your proposed solutions sound simple. It's because they are. 

 

Simplicity is often effective. Yes. It would be simple to bury them. We haven't because we have some weird recent obsession with the idea that every idiot on the planet has the right to be a stupid as he wants to be. Ok fine I get it. And as I have said before, just a few pages back (and you said you know my work) I dont disagree with that. Its valid. But I think this should be an exception. And beyond that, I think the police have a duty to society to not let people with bad intentions blow it all up just because of the first amendment. They saw it coming. They did literally nothing. Thats all I have been asking for in this thread so far. Besides, you know, no Nazi's. I know thats alot to ask. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

I swear I'm not a violent person. Don't own or even want to own guns. But count me in the group that thinks these douches need a good kicking in their Nazis vaginas when they show up. White nationaliat prima donnas too. I hate that I actually hope more people come to that realization. But it may be the only thing that wipes those sniveling idjits off the map.

 

We'll never wipe them out but you gotta fight em.  As a condition of your humanity...you must engage and defeat them.

[Llevron]

And again I ask if you have ever been bullied @PleaseBlitz? And if so did they just stop when they got bored of you or was there some other kind of intervention from either your fists or some authoritative figure that could help you? 

[BornaSkinsFan83]

You confront them every step of the way in every manner, make it a mistake to join, make it an embarrassment to join, make it costly to join, make it hurt to join. Online, offline, in the streets, in the courts, everywhere. You give it free reign and it's going to continue to grow. You wouldn't ignore ISIS and expect it to go away. 

[zoony]

That VICE imbedded reporting was horrifying and disgusting.  I was shocked mostly by how many young males were a part of the movement.  This was not old white men, this was very young white men.  That is troubling.

 

I do think the final minute of the piece is revealing, in that counter protestors who think they are helping by attacking these guys physically are, in fact, playing right into their hands and giving them exactly what they want.  Ghandi and MLK were and always will be right.  This and Berkeley and other counter protests have become extremely galvanizing and made the situation much worse.

2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

The strategy of physical confrontation used last Saturday was a complete failure on all counts. I know people's gut reaction is to get out there and punch some Nazis (not withstanding the fact that nobody here actually did that), but the fact is that Charlottesville was a tremendous day for a minor fringe hate group:  they got 3 or 4 entire news cycles devoted to them, the ****ing President had their backs, their show of force looked pretty forceful. They got everything they could have wanted. It was sad to watch. 

 

This isnt 1930s Germany. We arent in the Great Depression. Fascism isnt taking over. The fuel for these "movements" is attention. Trump has brought them a ton of that. Minimize it and you starve them of oxygen. 

 

This x10000.  Its sad when PB is the voice of reason

[zoony]

15 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Well just cause you say it is...

 

We have a country of 350 million people.  300 of them, thats .000085 percent, decided to spend their weekend marching in a circle espousing hate.  Another 300 people decided to counter protest.  Meanwhile, the PGA Championship had 20 million viewers, the economy is healthy,the stock market is at record higns, unemployment is low, and 60 million people are tuned into Game of Thrones.

 

Just because a few thousand underemployed whining losers say the cou try is falling apart on message boards, doesnt necessarily mean that it is.  This generation hasnt seen hard times.  None of us even know what they are.  But many excel at narcissim and drama. 

[redskins59]

You scare the heck out of them.  The dangerous ones are not the cosplay KKK types.  Everybody laughs at them.  The dangerous ones are the cleancut types who want to make White Nationalism cool.  Think Richard Spencer.  You can scare these types easily.  On twitter, they are constantly whining about the antifa. They are easy to scare.

[TradeTheBeal!]

The TV ratings for the 1936 Olympics were huge.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_in_television

 

#firestruthcannon

[visionary]

 

[zoony]

Just now, TryTheBeal! said:

The TV ratings for the 1936 Olympics were huge.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_in_television

 

#firestruthcannon

 

Jesus, you are one negative depressing dude.  Didnt you inherit a really nice business from your dad?  That pretty much puts you in the top .1 percent of earners in the wealthiest country in the history of the world.  Thats a pretty awesome place to be, wish we could all be so lucky.

[redskins59]

Doxing is effective as long as you target the correct person.  Some of the white supremacists and their families are getting death threats.  Of couse they are whining.  Something along the lines of leave my family alone.  The cleancut types will be reluctant to join these movements if you expose them like that. A lot of them go to college.  They are scared.

[Fresh8686]

4 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

We have a country of 350 million people.  300 of them, thats .000085 percent, decided to spend their weekend marching in a circle espousing hate.  Another 300 people decided to counter protest.  Meanwhile, the PGA Championship had 20 million viewers, the economy is healthy,the stock market is at record higns, unemployment is low, and 60 million people are tuned into Game of Thrones.

 

Just because a few thousand underemployed whining losers say the cou try is falling apart on message boards, doesnt necessarily mean that it is.  This generation hasnt seen hard times.  None of us even know what they are.  But many excel at narcissim and drama. 

You seem to be making the mistake that your own little bubble of a world applies to everyone else in this country.

Just because you're not touched by this doesn't mean others aren't and haven't seen hard times. You might want to watch who you marginalize via your lack of effort in thinking about any other persons experience but your own.

There are A LOT of people who were not shocked or surprised by this, because we were never lulled into thinking this didn't exist or never happened. People are impacted everyday by these kinds of people in their communities, by the legislation enacted by these kinds of people, and the treatment by authority figures who share these same views and beliefs.

[LD0506]

 

 

[Llevron]

I do find the humor in saying MLK was right and then suggesting not to protest. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[SoulSkin]

visionary's post a few above...This is another sort of terrifying part of what's going on to me. Electronic warfare. Hacking accounts, bots, etc. amplifying their messages. Do people believe that the alt-right haven't been, and aren't currently working arm and arm with forces hostile to American values. Some of them in positions of great power in this country. Why does the DOJ need to know information about every visitor to disruptj20.org? What use is that info to them? 

 

https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/we-fight-for-the-users/

Edited August 15, 2017 by SoulSkin

[No Excuses]

50 minutes ago, BornaSkinsFan83 said:

You confront them every step of the way in every manner, make it a mistake to join, make it an embarrassment to join, make it costly to join, make it hurt to join. Online, offline, in the streets, in the courts, everywhere. You give it free reign and it's going to continue to grow. You wouldn't ignore ISIS and expect it to go away. 

 

It's kind of funny that the same crowd that asks "where are the moderate Muslims stopping this????" is now playing the "this is a minority in the country, plz ignore" card. 

 

How opinions change when people with your shared identity do terrible things. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by No Excuses

[Fresh8686]

It seems the question people are dealing with here is how to fight them or resist them in such a way that we don't lose our moral authority and come across as no better than the people we're standing up against.

Those who lie on the non-violent spectrum, but not to the extreme of ignore and do nothing, need to come to terms with the fact that the potential for violence must be acknowledged and prepared for while ALSO taking steps to ingrain and practice measures for self-restraint. This is a two-pronged situation, that involves setting the stage prior to confrontation via coordination with city/state and police, and then involves what to do when in the thick of it and you are faced with no support from prior coordination, like those students who were surrounded by torch wielding supremacists at UVA. 

We have to acknowledge and address both contexts. The video of the guy embarrassing them with a tuba is nice and all, but what preparations are in place when those nazis rip the tuba from your hands, surround you, and beat you with it? We can't let our aversion to brutality, cause us to neglect in preparing for a proper response.

So how do we set the stage? We have freedom of speech and assembly, but does that include assembly while armed? Can we put limits and provisions on armament as criteria for giving out permits for assembly? Will the police be able to enforce and confiscate visible weapons if such provisions can be implemented? We saw in Charlottesville a judge refuse to relocate this demonstration to a more manageable location, how can that error be corrected and not repeated? If you are going to have a contingent of each side armed for protection of their people, shouldn't there be close coordination with the police as to their movements and protocols for aggression since those would theoretically be the high danger areas? If we now know from repeated incidents that weaponization of vehicles is a preferred terrorist method are there road blocks we can put in high congestion areas that allow for free movement of people, but protect against efforts toward vehicular manslaughter?

 

Then the next facet is how do we prepare the people who will be acting and reacting in the thick of things? Protecting people from getting cut off and isolated like that aspiring rapper who got his head split in the parking garage by nazis. Restraining people from flag or trophy taking, which seemed to be the catalyst for a lot of conflict (people fighting over the large anti-fascist plywood sign and many other instances). Instilling in people WHEN to fight, for protection of others rather then aggression and agitation. Organized lines of communication that rely heavily on interface with the police and central figures within each movement who would, per my earlier criteria would have had extensive coordination with the police and government officials prior to the demonstration.

These are just some things off the top of my head, that I'm sure others could better build upon, but these efforts have to be made if wish to both resist and do so in a responsible and just way.

However, with all that said, you also have to know who you're dealing with and prepare for them breaking faith or having intentions that desire chaos and destruction. Which means having the authority of the government putting in full effort to support the more responsible and constructive side. If we don't then we again make the mistake of false equivalency and innocent people might die as a result... 



 

[Warhead36]

You can't deal with irrational people in a rational manner. These hateful racist scumbags are the definition of irrational(because hating someone for the color of their skin is literally the dumbest thing ever).

 

I agree with those who said make it hurt to join. Maybe not physically,  but I love what people are doing revealing their IDs causing them to lose jobs and gain nationwide humiliation. Having this way of thinking in 2017 should make you a social pariah, an exile.