Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[DWinzit]

31 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think 2 6th rounders is going to do it.

2 6ths, sure. Not sure I would consider Settle a 6th rounder. He has proven to have been a really good player. While not really comparable, you wouldn't consider Brady a 6th rounder equivalent in a trade discussion.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, DWinzit said:

2 6ths, sure. Not sure I would consider Settle a 6th rounder. He has proven to have been a really good player. While not really comparable, you wouldn't consider Brady a 6th rounder equivalent in a trade discussion.

I just like joking about how much fans over rate Settle. He's like the Colt of defense because he's gotten some sacks, even though he hardly plays, never gets doubled, plays a lot in the 3rd when guys take breaks and sucks against the run despite his size. Do you think any fan of any other team is sitting around thinking about stealing him?

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Just going by the numbers, Mariota would be a total shot in the dark. I wouldn’t trade much to get him.  5th-7th round pick Max.

 

He’s not a great passer, and really kinda fizzled away in Tenn. He has 77TD’s in 6 seasons guys. It’s a passing league, he’s never thrown for more than 3426yards. 1 out of 6 seasons with 20+ TDs. 1. 

 I’d rather take a flyer on Winston who has 121 TD’s over the same time for no compensation to get him. You will have to pay him more though and he does turn it over more. But at least the Offense with be a threat and lively. We’d be grinding it out with Mariota imo.
 

As a fan I’ll support whomever they feel they can make a reclamation project of.  Mariota doesn’t really inspire confidence in our ability to score more points though, imo. Heck I think Heinicke can beat Mariota’s career numbers if he starts the whole season, rather easily too. I’d take Fitzpatrick over him, Trubisky too. Both would come w/o losing draft compensation. Wait it out and see if they budge for a 6th, if not wait on the other guys in FA. 
 

I guess he can come out and find himself, but I’d be surprised. Look, In Ron I trust. And given  Heinicke’s performance, I’d definitely have Scott in the mix with my decision. Taylor is Scott’s guy. So whoever Scott says he needs for his offense, I’d roll with. 

[DWinzit]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I just like joking about how much fans over rate Settle. He's like the Colt of defense because he's gotten some sacks, even though he hardly plays, never gets doubled, plays a lot in the 3rd when guys take breaks and sucks against the run despite his size. Do you think any fan of any other team is sitting around thinking about stealing him?

Nope, no one is thinking of stealing him. Most 6th rounders barely play or make a team. He has been a decent contributor for 3 years. He benefited last year from being with so many good DLmen to get 5 sacks. It is very doubtful does that playing for another line.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Nope, no one is thinking of stealing him. Most 6th rounders barely play or make a team. He has been a decent contributor for 3 years. He benefited last year from being with so many good DLmen to get 5 sacks. It is very doubtful does that playing for another line.

He's no Chris Baker, that's for sure. 

[88Comrade2000]

We aren’t going to find our long term QB this year unless we want to give up a lot of assets to get them. Whether that’s trading for a veteran or up in the draft.

 

So, just find a stopgap QB to compete with Kyle and Taylor for the starting job. Build the rest of the team this year and get the long term QBs in 22. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

23 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

We aren’t going to find our long term QB this year unless we want to give up a lot of assets to get them. Whether that’s trading for a veteran or up in the draft.

 

So, just find a stopgap QB to compete with Kyle and Taylor for the starting job. Build the rest of the team this year and get the long term QBs in 22. 

 

Heinicke/Allen is the stopgap, IMO.  If you bring in a guy like Mariota, that's not much better.   I bet either one of those guys could produce what Mariota can produce...if we get Mariota it doesn't really make us that much better.  

 

Stopgap isn't the answer, we've got two guys that are already stopgap material. We need someone legit.

[seantaylor=god]

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Heinicke/Allen is the stopgap, IMO.  If you bring in a guy like Mariota, that's not much better.   I bet either one of those guys could produce what Mariota can produce...if we get Mariota it doesn't really make us that much better.  

 

Stopgap isn't the answer, we've got two guys that are already stopgap material. We need someone legit.

I would agree but if you can get Mariotta for cheap (5th?) that’s improving your chances that between one of the 3 in a competition you might get slightly above average QB play. 
 

I would like to do better but we may not be able to trade up in the draft and a better option may not be available.

[Skinsinparadise]

Wow, I just listened to the Jay interview just done with Sheehan.  Sheehan did a masterful working through the chronology. 

 

 He goes into what did he have to promise Dan to get the job.  RG3 and what happened with him.  He got into the defensive woes and coordinators.  All the back and forth with Kirk. So many of us speculated at the time but we didn't know.  Jay really uncovers some funny stuff like he was concerned they'd lose Kirk for nothing and Dan reassures him saying when have I ever lost a player because of money? 

 

Jay said he knows for a fact they had multiple good deals that could be made for Kirk.  Felt Kirk wanted to go.   So between that and what Keim said on Standig's podcast, sounds like Bruce/Dan thought they can just win the negotiation. 

 

Pierre and D-Jax were high maintenance  Pierre refused to run a route right at the end of the half at that Eagles game because Jay called a fade and Pierre refused to run fades -- creating confusion at the snap of the ball and led to Kirk oddly taking a knee.  Pierre was really stubborn about what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it.  Jay liked Desean.  But he describes him and Pierre as not the easiest dudes to deal with and they were competitive with each other. 

 

Jay recounting the playoff game and how they were prepped to not substitute so to to fall prey to Rodgers' snap counts and yet they did it anyway.  To me at least its funny/interesting stuff.

 

As for Haskins.  He said it wasn't that the scouts disliked him but saw him as a 2nd-3rd rounder, not a first rounder.  Jay among others thought he'd fall to that range too in the draft. He knew he said 6 months before the draft they'd take Haskins because  Dan would comment repeatedly during the college season that he was the best college player. 

 

Jay knew they couldn't talk Dan out of it because of all the media talking heads that Dan would listen to would pump Haskins on TV.   He mentioned Dan liked that Haskins went to Dan's son's school.  And Dan would gloat every week during the college season and jokingly jab Jay saying he bets Jay doesn't like Haskins because he's so good. 

 

Jay put together a tape of Haskins throws from college showcases his weaknesses.  Touted that so much of his numbers were predicated by YAC -- sweeps from Parris Campbell.   He liked Stidham later in the draft.  He didn't like Rosen coming out of the draft and he and the FO wasn't interested in trading for him when he hit the trade market.  Jay said Haskins' issues are inconsistency and he doesn't prepare like he should. 

 

He admitted he and Callahan didn't really always get along there so he wasn't surprised he took jabs at him when he took over. 

 

As for why Dan has never won Jay's take is QB.   They made too many mistakes at QB.  You can't win if its unstable. He mentioned letting Kirk go.  Alex getting hurt.  Drafting RG3.  

 

Likes Alex albeit sees him as a game manager, favors checkdowns.  He cited that's likely why Alex's previous teams moved on from him.   But if the defenses plays well, you can win with Alex because he protects the football.  When they decided to go get Alex, Jay wasn't consulted about it or tipped off that they were doing it.  He was told about it once they traded for him.

 

He says if the coach can't control who is on the roster, specifically letting go players who spoil the culture, than you can't create a culture.  He thinks Ron having that power will help.  But he doesn't see them as future winner until they figure out the QB spot.   As for Heinicke, he said tough for him to tell from a small sample like that if he's the goods, so he'd need to see him in practice to judge his future.  

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Malapropismic Depository]

Seems like the only people who are surprised by this...are the Eagles.

 

Report: Eagles have yet to be offered a first-round pick for Carson Wentz

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-eagles-yet-offered-first-215356548.html

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Wow, I am halfway through listening to the Jay interview just done with Sheehan.  Sheehan did a masterful working through the chronology. 

 

 He goes into what did he have to promise Dan to get the job.  RG3 and what happened with him.  He got into the defensive woes and coordinators.  All the back and forth with Kirk. So many of us speculated at the time but we didn't know.  Jay really uncovers some funny stuff like he was concerned they'd lose Kirk for nothing and Dan reassures him saying when have I ever lost a player because of money? 

 

Jay said he knows for a fact they had multiple good deals that could be made for Kirk.  Felt Kirk wanted to go.   So between that and what Keim said on Standig's podcast, sounds like Bruce/Dan thought they can just win the negotiation. 

 

Pierre and D-Jax were high maintenance  Pierre refused to run a route right at the end of the half at that Eagles game because Jay called a fade and Pierre refused to run fades -- creating confusion at the snap of the ball and led to Kirk oddly taking a knee.  Pierre was really stubborn about what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it.  Jay liked Desean.  But he describes him and Pierre as not the easiest dudes to deal with and they were competitive with each other. 

 

Jay recounting the playoff game and how they were prepped to not substitute so to to fall prey to Rodgers' snap counts and yet they did it anyway.  To me at least its funny/interesting stuff.

 

As for Haskins.  He said it wasn't that the scouts disliked him but saw him as a 2nd-3rd rounder.  Jay among others thought he'd fall to that range too in the draft. He knew he said 6 months before the draft they'd take Haskins because  Dan would comment repeatedly during the college season that he was the best college player.  Jay knew they couldn't take Dan out of it because of all the media talking heads that Dan would listen to would pump Haskins on TV.   He mentioned Dan would go on about Haskins went to Dan's son's school.  And Dan would gloat every week during the college season and jib Jay saying he bets he doesn't like him because he's so good. 

 

Jay put together a tape of Haskins throws from college showcases his weaknesses.  Touted that so much of his numbers were predicated by PAC -- sweeps from Paris Campbell.   He liked Stidham later in the draft.  He didn't like Rosen coming out of the draft and he and the FO wasn't interested in trading for him when he hit the trade market. 

 

He admitted him and Callahan didn't really always get along there so he wasn't surprised he took jabs at him when he took over. 

 

As for why Dan has never won Jay's take is QB.   They made too many mistakes at QB.  You can't win if its unstable. He mentioned letting Kirk go.  Alex getting hurt.  Drafting RG3.  

 

Likes Alex albeit sees him as a game manager, favors checkdowns.  Reason why his previous teams moved on from him.   But if the defenses plays well, you can win with him because he protects the football.  When they decided to go get Alex, Jay wasn't consulted about it or tipped off that they are doing it.  He was told about it once they traded for him.

 

He says if the coach can't control who is on the roster, you can't create a culture.  He thinks Ron having that power will help.  But he doesn't see them as future winner until they figure out the QB spot.   As for Heinicke, he said tough for him to tell from a small sample like that if he's the goods, so he'd need to see him in practice to judge his future.  

 

 

This is like further confirmation to me, that Jay would do much better as a GM or something similar, than a HC or OC.

I've believed that all along, but this just cements it. He is not a great coach. But he's a great talent evaluator. Yes, even Jay had some misses, like everyone. But for the most part he was really good at knowing before anyone else, whether a player had "it" or did not.

[NoVaSkins21]

7 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Seems like the only people who are surprised by this...are the Eagles.

 

Report: Eagles have yet to be offered a first-round pick for Carson Wentz

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-eagles-yet-offered-first-215356548.html

 

 

The moment Philly realizes that guys like Cerrato and Bruce Allen are no longer employed in the NFL and it's going that a lot harder to unload their problem child QB this time around.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

This is like further confirmation to me, that Jay would do much better as a GM or something similar, than a HC or OC.

I've believed that all along, but this just cements it. He is not a great coach. But he's a great talent evaluator. Yes, even Jay had some misses, like everyone. But for the most part he was really good at knowing before anyone else, whether a player had "it" or did not.

 

Years back I won an auction to have lunch with McCloughan, he told me to my face that Jay is a great talent evaluator, best evaluator among the coaches he worked for.  Everyone makes mistakes.  But as Parcells liked to say if you can get 50% of them right you are among the best at the league at judging talent.  Jay said they had Cole Holcomb rated as an undrafted FA, and Jay told them they are nuts and apparently convinced them.  He also got Ionnaidis on their radar.

 

I have to admit the story about Dan bragging to Jay about how Haskins is a stud week after week during the college season and Jay knowing he was screwed on that because Dan had the mock draft dudes backing him, Jay put together a video of Haskins struggles with certain throws but that was ignored -- wow, hearing him describe that story more than anything brings home why we've stunk under Dan.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Years back I won an auction to have lunch with McCloughan, he told me to my face that Jay is a great talent evaluator, best evaluator among the coaches he worked for.  Everyone makes mistakes.  But as Parcells liked to say if you can get 50% of them right you are among the best at the league at judging talent.  Jay said they had Cole Holcomb rated as an undrafted FA, and Jay told them they are nuts and apparently convinced them.  He also got Ionnaidis on their radar.

 

I have to admit the story about Dan bragging to Jay about how Haskins is a stud week after week during the college season and Jay knowing he was screwed on that because Dan had the mock draft dudes backing him, Jay put together a video of Haskins struggles with certain throws but that was ignored -- wow, hearing him describe that story more than anything brings home why we've stunk under Dan.

 

 

It will be interesting to see what kind of evaluator we have in RR.  He will make the final decision.  

[sportsnut]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Heinicke/Allen is the stopgap, IMO.  If you bring in a guy like Mariota, that's not much better.   I bet either one of those guys could produce what Mariota can produce...if we get Mariota it doesn't really make us that much better.  

 

Stopgap isn't the answer, we've got two guys that are already stopgap material. We need someone legit.

Agree.  If we can’t get dak, Watson, or Wilson, then we should turn to the draft.

Edited February 14, 2021 by sportsnut

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, RWJ said:

It will be interesting to see what kind of evaluator we have in RR.  He will make the final decision.  

 

From what's been I get the impression that Rivera isn't really an evaluator but will judge others evaluations.  Sort of like what Gibbs did when he was here mostly under Dan.  Jay's dad was a scout, so he had some grounding in it. 

[RWJ]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

From what's been I get the impression that Rivera isn't really an evaluator but will judge others evaluations.  Sort of like what Gibbs did when he was here mostly under Dan.  Jay's dad was a scout, so he had some grounding in it. 

Well, thoughts on Mayhew and Hurney.  If he is taking their info and dissecting it that may be cause for alarm.  Your thoughts?

[dyst]

Thanks for the write-up  @Skinsinparadise

[ODU AGGIE]

As you can see, I'm a rookie here, so please bear with me. To me, WFT defined it's QB market when they made the offer for Stafford. They are looking for a proven starting QB, and any substantially lesser quality QB is off the table. That only leaves a few to realistically consider -- Watson, Wilson and Carr. I don't think the FO will be able to offer a trade package that Houston will consider, and that takes Watson off the table. The same is likely true for Wilson, but even if there is a doable trade there, I think recent activity by Wilson might make the braintrust a little shy on going that route. That leaves Carr. If there is a trade to be made, I think Carr is the guy, and if so, expect Allen to be gone, maybe even as part of the trade. If no deal is made for Carr, then expect Allen, Heinicke and Smith to duke it out in training camp. 

[heyholetsgogrant]

1 hour ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Seems like the only people who are surprised by this...are the Eagles.

 

Report: Eagles have yet to be offered a first-round pick for Carson Wentz

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-eagles-yet-offered-first-215356548.html

 

Philly thought they could pull a fast one and extract a first rounder for a guy coming off an abomination of year and with a massive contract.

Edited February 14, 2021 by heyholetsgogrant

[Darth Tater]

1 hour ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

This is like further confirmation to me, that Jay would do much better as a GM or something similar, than a HC or OC.

I've believed that all along, but this just cements it. He is not a great coach. But he's a great talent evaluator. Yes, even Jay had some misses, like everyone. But for the most part he was really good at knowing before anyone else, whether a player had "it" or did not.

I've always felt that Jay is too naive, doesn't seem to have the courage of his convictions and is not a good enough "sales" person to be a good GM.

[bakedtater1]

Has it been mentioned what it would take to get Wilson?..wondering what folks round here think it would take to obtain him..and on another note dosent the recent signing of Taylor kinda indicate hes in the lead for the starting qb job?

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Heinicke/Allen is the stopgap, IMO.  If you bring in a guy like Mariota, that's not much better.   I bet either one of those guys could produce what Mariota can produce...if we get Mariota it doesn't really make us that much better.  

 

Stopgap isn't the answer, we've got two guys that are already stopgap material. We need someone legit.

Yeah, I’d rather roll the dice and use the pick for Mariota on a qb in the draft.

I can see it now - Heinicke starts the season, injuries lead to Smith, then Allen (maybe fresh of PUP), and then the rookie gets some valuable games in the 2nd half of the season (Montez comes off PS to back him up and probably winds up starting some games as well).  

Good news - we then go into 2022 with the cheapest qb room in modern football history.

Bad news - we go into 2022 with 3-4 question marks at the most crucial position...

 

I think I’m down to adding a rookie qb, don’t trade away assets, spend smartly in FA (roll over some money), and keep our powder dry for 2022.  I don’t know...

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, ODU AGGIE said:

As you can see, I'm a rookie here, so please bear with me. To me, WFT defined it's QB market when they made the offer for Stafford. They are looking for a proven starting QB, and any substantially lesser quality QB is off the table. That only leaves a few to realistically consider -- Watson, Wilson and Carr. I don't think the FO will be able to offer a trade package that Houston will consider, and that takes Watson off the table. The same is likely true for Wilson, but even if there is a doable trade there, I think recent activity by Wilson might make the braintrust a little shy on going that route. That leaves Carr. If there is a trade to be made, I think Carr is the guy, and if so, expect Allen to be gone, maybe even as part of the trade. If no deal is made for Carr, then expect Allen, Heinicke and Smith to duke it out in training camp. 

I see your logic and mostly agree with it.  Not sure Allen would be tradeable due to having to pass a medical, but I could be wrong about how that works.  As to your last sentence, I think they’d bring in a rookie as well.  If it’s Lance or Jones, maybe they either start Allen on PUP or cut one of the three (although there’s also the newer PS rules I’m not too clear on).  We’ll see.

[Thinking Skins]

One thing that scares me about Mac Jones is his reliance on Smith. Dude had 117 receptions this year. The next guy had 55. That's more than twice as many catches going to his number 1 vs the next guy. And this is Alabama, not Duke or UNC so the number 2 is a good guy. How many of those balls are forced? How many were just great catches? How many were because he was just open.

 

In contrast, Mond's top three guys had 46, 43 and 29 catches. Newman's guys had 73, 66 and 35. That doesn't mean they can read a defense but it gives me hope that he can come off the number one and go somewhere else when need be. 

 

I really wonder how much of Jones's highlight reel is him going to Smith. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Thinking Skins