FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[PartyPosse]

7 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t think anyone expects Haskins to win a whole bunch with this gang, but we would like him to look better than Duck Hodges.  Is that not fair?

Duck's numbers aren't good at all and his defense hasn't given up more than 17 points in any game he's started. Duck's doing the same thing as Dwayne in that he's throwing very short passes hence a high completion percentage and low yardage. He can afford that luxury with their defense. Our defense has given up less than 17 once in his starts. It also doesn't help when you're down 14-0 early.

[ThePackisback]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

Duck's numbers aren't good at all and his defense hasn't given up more than 17 points in any game he's started. Duck's doing the same thing as Dwayne in that he's throwing very short passes hence a high completion percentage and low yardage. He can afford that luxury with their defense. Our defense has given up less than 17 once in his starts. It also doesn't help when you're down 14-0 early.

At least your team didn't fold when you were down 14-0. You battled.

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, ThePackisback said:

At least your team didn't fold when you were down 14-0. You battled.

We absolutely did. My point is though that Duck is rarely in a position where he can't trust the defense. He's allowed to throw low risk, short routes, which makes his numbers misleading. Dwayne is usually down a possession or two.

 

Now he's not exactly been lighting it up, but that's not the point.

[CowboyKillerz]

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-chris-cooley-show-washington-redskins-qbJLRKeTEDw/

 

Thats a nice Cooley Podcast with Portis talking about Haskins development, mentions the Interception and says its on Harmon for not coming back. Also talks about the confusing stuff Haskins is getting form coaching in terms of going deep vs short, but also on the sacks being on Haskins vs the line (trusting them too much sometimes). They seem pretty positive. 

 

Thanks for sharing this! I always appreciate Cooleys breakdowns but haven't found this podcast with cp on my new phone...

 

As much as I LOVE all the armchair qb coaches here, its refreshing to hear in depth analysis of plays and miscues that might not have been seen when watching live. Obviously being past players these guys know what they are talking about.. And man I enjoyed it! The knee jerk reactions here after every throw can be tiresome... If Cooley is hopeful, that gives me more hope.

 

A great point he made... Haskins is young raw etc we all know that.. But his WRs are too. And while they have flashes, they are also guilty of making rookie mistakes too... Not always as obvious during live game play.

[skinsmania123]

2 hours ago, ggarriso said:

 

hahahhaha!! he is so next level bad - its actually comical listening to people talk about "improvement" etc when its so obvious he is a running joke.  The book is written, everyone just needs to read it

 

 

Hahaha I found myself looking at that chart and thinking, why I am I missing him. So I started looking closer at the mix of Dalton, Rudolph, Mayfield and Mariota, and then it hit me. and I thought NO WAY... but yeah, way, there he was on the bottom in a sphere of inepitude all by himself.  Can someone please convince me how he can actually be as bad as Mayfield and Dalton?  Because that would be a  massive improvement.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I’m always weary when ppl’s compliments for a player are solely intangible 

[TSO]

8 hours ago, MartinC said:

There is this. I realize it does fit with the zeitgeist (and I swear I’m not Haskins agent).

 

 I’m not sure where the claim about clean pocket being the most stable way to predict QB development comes from. But this is PFF not just some guy off the street. For what that’s worth.

Their argument is that improvisational plays or plays outside of the confines of the offense are so unpredictable and unlike each other, that you just don’t know how they’ll project to the future. So plays from a clean pocket are better indicators because they tell you if the QB is doing his job in identifying the defense, throwing accurately and on time, and showing good mechanics in general. 
 

I can get what they’re saying there, as that’s one of my annoyances with how people judge QB play, though I’m not sure I’d go as far as saying what they did about it being the best predictor or whatever. 
 

Let me put it this way; there are two plays that result equally in a 15 yard completion: 

 

1) One consists of the QB operating efficiently from the pocket, correctly identifying the defense while having a mastery of the offense to know where to go with the ball based on whatever concept they’re running. Post snap he even identifies any change in the coverage, makes a subtle move he needs to within the pocket, and then hits the right guy with anticipation and accuracy. 

 

2) The other play has the QB fail at correctly diagnosing the defense, or he doesn’t have the mastery over the offense to know where to go with the ball even if he does, but post snap he eludes one or two rushers behind the LOS, keeps his eyes downfield and finds his man who was effective getting open for his QB in a scramble drill by improvising...

 

Again, result is the same in this scenario, a 15 yard completion. 
 

Which play has fans lose their minds over and which one has fans not viewing as anything special? I think we can all agree the majority of media, fans, and general viewers will automatically love the second play and will view that QB as having done something “better” than the other.
 

The reality is, the first one is more sustainable and a better indicator of good QB play. The second is just more exciting, but can lead to more potential for injuries among a myriad of other issues. 
 

But that’s just one case. One can argue that the QB improvising more has a better chance of getting even bigger plays as it stresses the defensive coverage for longer. So it’s certainly not that simple to apply it in a generalized manner. 
 

Of course, a QB that can do both consistently is what we’re all looking for, but those QBs themselves try to accomplish play number one more often than play number two for a reason. There’s a lot more nuance to it and evaluating it is extremely difficult for us as fans considering we don’t have access to every play call or route concept and how it’s being taught against various coverages, but yeah, that’s why I can get with what they’re saying about it to some degree.
 

Again, I’m not sure though that I agree it’s the “best indicator” or “most stable way” to predict success... but it makes some sense.   

[DJHJR86]

10 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

Duck's numbers aren't good at all and his defense hasn't given up more than 17 points in any game he's started. Duck's doing the same thing as Dwayne in that he's throwing very short passes hence a high completion percentage and low yardage. He can afford that luxury with their defense. Our defense has given up less than 17 once in his starts. It also doesn't help when you're down 14-0 early.

 

His completion percentage is 16% higher than Haskins, and he's thrown 1 more touchdown while playing in 2 less games.  His AY/A is 8.4.  Haskins' is 4.48.  

[MartinC]

This is an amazingly good angle on McLaurins great TD catch. 
 

I thought live this was one of Haskins worst throws of the game - behind Terry and took a circus catch. Watching this Haskins put the ball in the only place he could to give Terry a chance - had to avoid the safety front side of the route. Also just look how good the route is from Terry - he widens from his release leaning into the DB to create separation. 
 

 

[MartinC]

Existential question. Does scheme and play calling produce QB production or does the QB influence the scheme and play calling?

 

 

[skinny21]

Yeah, that throw had me initially thinking it was another poorly thrown ball, but the in-game replay certainly made it look like it would have been a pick (or PD) if put anywhere else.  
 

I’m not sure it was the right throw to make, but I don’t think I can fault where he put it. 
 

Edit: as to your question @MartinC, my guess is it can go either way.  You have qbs that are more mobile, ones that are more experienced in the pocket, ones that have played in NFL systems, etc.  

[Llevron]

@MartinC I have always been a believer that either can be true, but if you really wanna have continued success you need a good system that can make your players look good by giving them easy looks. 

 

Im not eloquent enough to put it into words but the perfect example to me was Griffin and Cousins. Griffin had physical skills that allowed you to take advantage of a system in ways no one else could. Those skills eventually faded. You could say the same about someone with an amazingly talented arm (I think manning fits here) or someone who was just way too smart (again manning). The positives with these guys are obvious. The problem here for me is that talent fades. Always does. Even with manning, his arm degraded and no matter how smart he was, he was limited physically and the next guy wasnt as smart as him. 

 

System guys, in this example Cousins, can come in and run your systems so efficiently they dont have to be special to do it. They just need to know the rules of your system, the wins and the losses, and go and do it. The game will play itself out and if you are lucky you have a chance to make a play or two. I dont say game manager as an insult to these guys. I think Brady is the top end of this spectrum. He doesnt MAKE plays happen in the way a guy like Griffin or Cam did. But he knew when you made a mistake before you did and he killed you for it. Cousins is in the same vein to me, just not as good. 

 

I dont know if what im trying to say is coming off well, but long story short I think both can be true. But I think having a crazy good system (to me the best system is still what Kyle Shan is running) can make anyone look good and with something like that in place you can change QB every 5 years, save money, and build a crazy good team around you at the same time. 

[skinny21]

@Llevron In your last line is the key, IMO.  Build the team.  We’ve seen elite qbs struggle to get their teams above .500 when their supporting cast was lackluster and we’ve seen non elite qbs go the the big dance with the right coaching/personnel around them.  The overriding principle though is to have a FO with vision that can build that team as well as marry the right coaching staff to the right personnel.  Otherwise you’re just hoping for the occasional flash in the pan.  
 

This is one reason I’m a bit zen on Haskins at the moment.  He’s been pretty bad for sure (most stats point to awful), but the team has major issues from a coaching, player and (most importantly) FO standpoint.  He can, and should improve dramatically as I feel all of his issues are fixable (maturity is a concern, but he can progress there too) - if he doesn’t, we’ll try to spin the roulette wheel again.  In the mean time, we need to make serious strides in the other areas - coaching, personnel and FO structure.  

[Veryoldschool]

 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, MartinC said:

I thought live this was one of Haskins worst throws of the game - behind Terry and took a circus catch. Watching this Haskins put the ball in the only place he could to give Terry a chance - had to avoid the safety front side of the route.

 

He felt out that safety.  Knew he could get the ball on Terry before the safety could play it even though he read it pretty fast.  That's the beauty of arm strength.  A lot of times when it seems like he's placing it wrong he's keeping you in the field of play and giving you a chance to flip your hips and run, or leading you inside your coverage on a DB whose over-leveraged outside.  He's instinctive and he's not scared of the DBs getting to his ball, but he's going to have to adjust that feel for his windows to NFL speed.  And that's going to take time.  And he's also going to have to develop that special chemistry with more of his receivers, which will also take time.  But you can see he's already got chemistry with Terry and Harmon, so he can do it with smart receivers who also have good football instincts (not Cam Sims, who is a bum).  And the results can be spectacular.

 

Terry is so ****ing good too.  The balance and physicality at the top of the stem and then he just explodes out of the break and makes an immediate adjustment to the throw.  He is better than my wildest expectations.  So smart.  So tough.  So athletic and gifted.  So humble.  He's a dream player.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

I dont know if what im trying to say is coming off well, but long story short I think both can be true. But I think having a crazy good system (to me the best system is still what Kyle Shan is running) can make anyone look good and with something like that in place you can change QB every 5 years, save money, and build a crazy good team around you at the same time. 

 

Yeah absolutely. This is one of those chicken or egg questions.

 

Scheme and play calling absolutely impact QB production. Also its true to say that the limitations of a QB influence what a play caller can game plan and call. 

 

But Haskins is not physically limited - he's absolutely got an NFL skill set as a thrower. The question is can he be developed from a good thrower into a good NFL QB. With a system and talent put around him to make him an upper echelon NFL starter. And I don't know the answer to that, I don't think anyone does but I can certainly understand those who have doubts. 

 

We have all seen this movie before right? And it's over 3 hours long. So a lot of people have skipped right to the end ...

 

Goff as a rookie was  ... not good. Under Jeff Fisher. Who was ... not good. 54% rating. Only 7 TDs. 63 QB rating. People talking about him as a bust. Sound familiar?

 

Enter Sean McVay.

 

62% completions. 28 TDs. 100 rating.

 

Season after that was the Super Bowl run. 32 TDs 101 rating.

 

Now the league have a lot of film and are making adjustments and Goff has tailed off a bit. Only 15 TDs so far and 85 rating.

 

Scheme and coaching matter. Whoever comes in next year as HC and OC REALLY matters in the context of Haskins.

[Veryoldschool]

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, ExoDus84 said:

So, Dwayne...you, uh, got some improving to do...

 

Of course, he's started what 5 games?  So, of course, he's got a lot of improving to do the issue going forward is he progressing.  I counsel patience before the initial assessment is made at the end of the year.   He's got 3 more games to play hopefully we see additional progress and he warrants an acceptable progress report.

[KDawg]

Regardless on my overall feelings on Haskins, I do think he needs to be kept around regardless of if he's the guy or not. He absolutely can change with some more experience (practice counts in that scenario). He's on a rookie deal and healthy. As long as he's not a distraction, the team shouldn't just give up on him. A few years of maturing/having good habits instilled could do wonders for him. 

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Regardless on my overall feelings on Haskins, I do think he needs to be kept around regardless of if he's the guy or not. He absolutely can change with some more experience (practice counts in that scenario). He's on a rookie deal and healthy. As long as he's not a distraction, the team shouldn't just give up on him. A few years of maturing/having good habits instilled could do wonders for him. 

 

Absolutely. And even for those that think he is trash and will never be good, there is value in having a young guy in place to take the hits while we build a roster. Basically what we did to Griffin then moving to Cousins (imo, could be wrong, not really my point) 

 

I dont want that to happen, but with good management that could be the worse case scenario and its better than what we have had for a few years now.  

[Capsman]

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

This is an amazingly good angle on McLaurins great TD catch. 
 

I thought live this was one of Haskins worst throws of the game - behind Terry and took a circus catch. Watching this Haskins put the ball in the only place he could to give Terry a chance - had to avoid the safety front side of the route. Also just look how good the route is from Terry - he widens from his release leaning into the DB to create separation. 
 

 

He was way late  on the throw.  If he threw it before or on Mclaurin's break it's an easier TD.  

[Rex Tomb]

7 minutes ago, Capsman said:

He was way late  on the throw.  If he threw it before or on Mclaurin's break it's an easier TD.  

 

I disagree - the safety looks as though he is rotating over to make the play on the ball but was trying to bait Haskins into throwing it.  Regardless, good placement by Haskins and a tremendous catch by McLaurin.  Had Haskins led McLaurin at all, that's an easy pick and probably a house call. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

4 minutes ago, Capsman said:

He was way late  on the throw.  If he threw it before or on Mclaurin's break it's an easier TD.  

 

Re-watch the video.  What helped me is pausing it and trying to go frame by frame.

 

You see the throwing motion start while McLaurin is breaking.  You see the throwing arm move as McLaurin is still in contact with the Corner and has his outside leg planted, McLaurin's next step is him breaking inside.  By the time McLaurin has planted his first step from breaking inside, the throwing motion is complete and the ball is out of Haskins's hand.

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[ggarriso]

apparently pumba blocked Grant Paulsen of 1067 on social, for reasons unknown - further evidence he is focused on dumb stuff while every measurable statistic shows he is playing, literally, historically bad.  

[skinfan2k]

I've been saying it all along, KOC and callahan are running a 1980s offense on 1st and 2nd down and then somehow expect him to play a 2010 offense on 3rd down and execute.  That can't happen.