Josh Doctson the new 50/50?

[Vladimir L]

He was braught in here to catch 50/50 passes.

[FrFan]

I didn't have any high expectations for Josh since his draft class was ranked "normal" concerning his position. Nevertheless I wish him the best. Get some stickum Josh

[Darrell Green Fan]

21 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

Lesser WRs, not guys you spend a first round pick on expecting them to anchor your WR corps.

 

Who was the last really good WR taken in the first round that took a few years to make an impact?  And by "impact", I dont mean they had to catch 90 balls for 1200 yards and 10 TDs necessarily right outta the gate.  I mentioned Nelson Algolor earlier, but it's probably Roddy White coming out in 2005.  He took a couple years looking like a bust and then took off.  But it's not the norm for first round WRs.

 

For the really good ones with first round ability, you can get sonething in the neighborhood of 50 catches, 700 yards, 5-6 TDs as a rookie or 2nd year guy.  Doctson got the TDs, at least.  Catching 35 balls as a rookie starter is absolutely underwhelming.

 

As a guy who believes Doc may still develop many of you have made good points that are making me revise my opinion. Included was your point to me that WRs don't necessarily take years to develop today as they once did. I looked back and while there are exceptions such as Antonio Brown most of the top WRs today did come up with strong rookie seasons, much stronger than Josh's first season.   

 

Some posters dismiss Cooley for some reason but I have every reason to believe he knows more than we do.  And he sure looks at more video, again from the perspective of a person who has actually played in NFL games.  So yeah, I'll put more value in his opinion than a message board poster. 

 

I too have to start questioning Doctson's love of the game, he does seem to be going through the motions a bit.   And of course there was that still unsolved mystery of how he was unable to play for like 8 months on an injury nobody could quite put a finger on.  

[joeken24]

On 1/2/2018 at 1:31 PM, shakinaiken said:

I may be in the minority here, but nothing about Doctson impresses me. He doesn't have game breaking speed, doesn't create separation on routes, and does't appear to have reliable hands. He can jump pretty high, so that's cool. 

 

Everyone seems to preach patience, but I'm not convinced on his raw skill set.  

You hit every point on the head. Gruden loves measurables. Its was size with Bruton and Matt Jones.

With Doctson, it was how it "reminded" Gruden of AJ Green. Problem is he doesn't play like AJ Green. He's comparable to Brandon Lloyd. Maybe one year removed from injury makes a difference. Lets hope so.

[NoCalMike]

I wouldn't agree that he can't get separation.  There is visual proof on film that he has separated downfield.  Maybe not the way college WRs or DeSean Jackson gets separation, but he has beaten coverage deep.

 

Also, I think part of my frustration was Doctson not being given more opportunity inside the redzone.  Especially once Jordan Reed went out.  I don't care if Doctson was still "learning the offense." There are simple route concepts you can put in the redzone offense that caters to his strengths.  He missed an opportunity in Kansas City on the near catch, but there should have been at least 1-2 of those kinds of attempts in every single game.  

 

When you have a young skill position player, of course it will be awhile before they are an every down player, but until then get them in the game when the situation matches their strengths.

[Thinking Skins]

http://www.redskins.com/news/article-1/With-Healthy-Season-Down-Josh-Doctson-Seeking-Overall-Improvement/156ee8b1-1c9a-4300-8f3e-df45a6b22d64

 

Quote

“That’s just with any quarterback, you’ve got to put in the time,” Doctson said. “Same with back home in college with Trevone Boykin, the first couple years are rough edges, and then my junior and senior year we really got going. So, it’s just a matter of that timing with the quarterback [and] chemistry.”

 

Quote

“You want a guy that knows the system, can line up at multiple spots, obviously he’s physical enough in the running game that he can block a safety every now and then and that’s something that is very important around here,” said Redskins head coach Jay Gruden. “If we want to be able to run the ball, we’ve got to have physical receivers that can block safeties every now and then because they’re going to line up in eight-man boxes.

 

 

Quote

 

“The same skill set you’re looking for at receiver, you’ve got to have some speed, you’ve got to have great hands, you’ve got to have great toughness – mental toughness, physical toughness – and not easy to find. Easier said than done. A lot of receivers have either the speed but not the toughness or maybe the toughness but not the speed, but we have to find that rare combination that fits in this offense, both personality-wise and competitive-wise.”

 

[ncr2h]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 1:16 PM, NoCalMike said:

When you have a young skill position player, of course it will be awhile before they are an every down player, but until then get them in the game when the situation matches their strengths.

 

He's not "young", which is a point that many people here seem to be missing.  He's 25.  He'll be 26 by the end of next season.  At the end of this season, here were the Redskins WRs ranked by age:

 

22 - Robert Davis

24 - Jamison Crowder

25 - Josh Doctson, Maurice Harris

27 - Ryan Grant

28 - Bryan Quick

 

As for the guys bringing up Funchess, Agholor, Davante Adams, etc.  I'm sure one factor in their huge leaps was that they were not 25 years old when they were making them.  Agholar and Adams came into the league at 22 and "broke out" at 24.  Funchess came in at 21 and broke out at 23.  Doctson came into the league at 24. 

 

While Doctson was a fully grown man at 23 years old, padding his stats in college against 19-20 year-old grocery baggers, these guys had already been grinding against NFL competition for several years.  The development that you're hoping Doctson can make?  He should have already been doing it when he was 22-24.

 

All of the star receivers you see in the league today?  They get drafted young.  OBJ is the same age as Doctson.  Keenan Allen is the same age as Doctson.  Deandre Hopkins, Jarvis Landry...same age as Doctson.  That's who you should be comparing him against.

 

Doctson is a year older than Michael Thomas, Brandin Cooks, Mike Evans, Amari Cooper, who already have multiple 1,000+ yard seasons.  Tyreke Hill, Stefan Diggs, Allen Robinson...he's older than them.  Of the 15 WRs who caught more than 1,000 yards this season, 6 are 25 or younger.  Basically, Doctson is "middle-aged" for an NFL WR.

[NickyJ]

58 minutes ago, ncr2h said:

While Doctson was a fully grown man at 23 years old, padding his stats in college against 19-20 year-old grocery baggers, these guys had already been grinding against NFL competition for several years.  The development that you're hoping Doctson can make?  He should have already been doing it when he was 22-24.

 

All of the star receivers you see in the league today?  They get drafted young.  OBJ is the same age as Doctson.  Keenan Allen is the same age as Doctson.  Deandre Hopkins, Jarvis Landry...same age as Doctson.  That's who you should be comparing him against.

 

Doctson is a year older than Michael Thomas, Brandin Cooks, Mike Evans, Amari Cooper, who already have multiple 1,000+ yard seasons.  Tyreke Hill, Stefan Diggs, Allen Robinson...he's older than them.  Of the 15 WRs who caught more than 1,000 yards this season, 6 are 25 or younger.  Basically, Doctson is "middle-aged" for an NFL WR.

This begs the question of "what improves a player?" Do players improve by the amount of time they spend on the field, or are they like plants that just need sunlight and water, and will "grow" as time goes on regardless of experience? He barely played a down his first year, but he's supposed to automatically kick it into second gear because turning 24 magically does that to receivers? Should we cut every receiver over the age of 24 if they don't have 1000 yards under their belt?

[ncr2h]

10 hours ago, NickyJ said:

This begs the question of "what improves a player?" Do players improve by the amount of time they spend on the field, or are they like plants that just need sunlight and water, and will "grow" as time goes on regardless of experience? He barely played a down his first year, but he's supposed to automatically kick it into second gear because turning 24 magically does that to receivers? Should we cut every receiver over the age of 24 if they don't have 1000 yards under their belt?

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but when you say "players improve by the amount of time they spend on the field" are you implying that Doctson has spent less time playing football than other 25 year-old receivers?  I would argue that he's spent the same amount of time playing football as most other 25 year-old NFL receivers, it's just that he spent a much larger proportion of his time playing at programs with weak training facilities and against weak competition (read: more time in college rather than turning pro).  The bad habits that he's developed will be harder to break because he's older, has spent more years using the bad habits, etc. than the second year pros that people desperately want to compare him to.  OBJ, Jarvis Landry, Deandre Hopkins, etc. were all living and breathing football, working on technique under top notch coaching staffs, and playing 17 weeks of football against top level competition during key formative years of their careers.  Meanwhile, Doctson was spending 20 hours a week studying for school and playing with and against amateurs.

 

All I'm saying is that Doctson should be evaluated for what he is - a 25 year-old, relatively middle-aged NFL WR.  He's not young.  He's not basically a rookie.

 

I'm not saying we should cut him.  We're already paying him, and there's a chance (albeit extremely low) that he makes a huge leap.  I think people should just get realistic about what he is and what his chances are.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Im haven’t been wowed by him in the slightest. Hope he gets it together. I haven’t turned the page yet though, still believe he can be really good.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I’d just like him to perform the basics of his position on a weekly basis. Outside of jumping ability, he struggles with literally everything else. He’s not a good football player at the moment 

[klwilkins1977]

I think Doctson will take a similar arch as Reed did.   Remember Lil Bo Reed?   Couldn't catch a cold without being on IR at first?   Then something clicked and he started taking over the universe.   Reed started off injury riddled.   This season is what Doctson needed.   He got batted around...  Made some memorable catches and played a decent number of snaps.   Look for him to be a world beater next year. 

[zoony]

1 hour ago, klwilkins1977 said:

I think Doctson will take a similar arch as Reed did.   Remember Lil Bo Reed?   Couldn't catch a cold without being on IR at first?   Then something clicked and he started taking over the universe.   Reed started off injury riddled.   This season is what Doctson needed.   He got batted around...  Made some memorable catches and played a decent number of snaps.   Look for him to be a world beater next year. 

 

Wish in one hand and **** in the other.

 

This is some of the most homerific nonsense ive ever read.  Doctson is historically bad at his position.

22 hours ago, ncr2h said:

 

He's not "young", which is a point that many people here seem to be missing.  He's 25.  He'll be 26 by the end of next season.  At the end of this season, here were the Redskins WRs ranked by age:

 

22 - Robert Davis

24 - Jamison Crowder

25 - Josh Doctson, Maurice Harris

27 - Ryan Grant

28 - Bryan Quick

 

As for the guys bringing up Funchess, Agholor, Davante Adams, etc.  I'm sure one factor in their huge leaps was that they were not 25 years old when they were making them.  Agholar and Adams came into the league at 22 and "broke out" at 24.  Funchess came in at 21 and broke out at 23.  Doctson came into the league at 24. .

.

 

Intersting take.  And i suspect the correct take

 

Doctson was a wasted pick.  

[Hail4Life]

Earlier in the season my daughter came up with the name "Shy Cat" for Doctson...I think it fits him perfectly.

[Skinsinparadise]

Craig Hoffman, 106.7, beat reporter was asked recently who is the one player that the coaches are really high on that he knows fans aren't digging.  Hoffman goes Doctson.  He said the coaches think he's going to take off.  I guess we will find out but we got a long wait for the 2018 season.

[PF Chang]

The red zone was our problem offensively when we drafted Doctson. I get the logic of the pick particularly when Reed is always hurt -- no other red zone weapons on the team. Last year was essentially his rookie year also. 

 

Way too many drops though and realistically bust is looking more likely. Hoping he improves but it's looking like at best, he'll be an average receiver and above average in the red zone. 

[mojo]

Doctson is the equivalent to Jordan Reed in that they both have major talent but neither can be counted on.  Reed due to injuries and Doctson due to lackadaisical effort and attitude.  I could easily envision Doctson having a 150 yd, 2 TD game followed up 5 games of squat.

[RandyHolt]

He passed the first bust threshold.... 25+ total catches combined in his first 2 years. 

 

I would like to see him fill out a bit more however he is no spring chicken.  You look at the stud WRs and they almost all seemed ripped. Well, DJax aside.

[skinzplay]

17 hours ago, mojo said:

I could easily envision Doctson having a 150 yd, 2 TD game followed up 5 games of squat.

 

Me, too, especially if he's running wide open (which he was a lot), and Cousins won't throw it because he's not open enough for his cautious approach.

 

I agree with what Gruden said earlier this week -- that the team badly needs another receiver to pair with Doctson, one with deep threat speed who can stretch the field. No DCs in this league are game-planning for Ryan Grant. I'm convinced Doctson is gonna deliver. This was basically his rookie year. Kids gonna be very, very good.

[Mania]

On 1/2/2018 at 7:34 PM, Spaceman Spiff said:

He definitely had a lot of bad drops this year.  I think 50/50 could be a good nickname for him but he needs another season.  I agree with @elkabong82's post, people around here freak the **** out if someone isn't an All Pro after like 3 games.  

 

Dude made it through the season healthy, that's a good start.  It was a decent season for him, IMO.  There are things to build on.

 

25 out of his 35 catches went for a first down.  14.3 yards per catch is decent.  6 td's is nice.  

 

Here's a guy that needs to put in some serious work this offseason.  If he does, I think he can double the catches and the yards next year while catching a higher percentage of balls thrown his way.

Give him time.  Nelson Agholor had the dropsies his first couple seasons and turned it around this season.  

[Mr. Sinister]

On 1/6/2018 at 10:15 PM, zoony said:

 

Wish in one hand and **** in the other.

 

This is some of the most homerific nonsense ive ever read.  Doctson is historically bad at his position.

 

Intersting take.  And i suspect the correct take

 

Doctson was a wasted pick.  

 

I didn't  know he was that old. By the time he's "Ready" by Skins fanbase standards,  dude might be a skeleton, propped up in the locker room clutching a dusty playbook

[NoCalMike]

Part of me wonders if he was drafted with the intention that some form of Garcon/D-Jax would still be here at this time.  I remember when he was drafted, the prevailing thought was it was due to the lack of having a bigger sized WR target in the red zone, especially down inside the 10 yard line.  Having a WR that you could throw any kind of pass to was a big missing piece on the offense. Perhaps he would have spent most of his rookie year in goal line offense packages while being slowly eased into a bigger role as the season(s) went on.  Doctson gets injured, sets back his skill development, then Garcon & Jackson both leave, and suddenly the entire WR core, or top of it at least gets a reset and Kirk is now not only trying to get on the same page as Josh but also Pryor.  If Pryor had produced more earlier, it might have helped Josh ease in as for all intensive purposes a 2nd year rookie WR.  

 

Then again what about a WR like Adam Thielen.  Been in the league since 2014 he went from 8 receptions as a rookie, to 12 in 2015, then 69 his third year, before becoming a bonified stud this year with 91 receptions and over 1200 yards. He is 27 currently, so he didn't really produce until he was 26 years old. Sometimes you have to give a player a couple of seasons to get acclimated. 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

5 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Part of me wonders if he was drafted with the intention that some form of Garcon/D-Jax would still be here at this time.  I remember when he was drafted, the prevailing thought was it was due to the lack of having a bigger sized WR target in the red zone, especially down inside the 10 yard line.  Having a WR that you could throw any kind of pass to was a big missing piece on the offense. Perhaps he would have spent most of his rookie year in goal line offense packages while being slowly eased into a bigger role as the season(s) went on.  Doctson gets injured, sets back his skill development, then Garcon & Jackson both leave, and suddenly the entire WR core, or top of it at least gets a reset and Kirk is now not only trying to get on the same page as Josh but also Pryor.  If Pryor had produced more earlier, it might have helped Josh ease in as for all intensive purposes a 2nd year rookie WR.  

 

Then again what about a WR like Adam Thielen.  Been in the league since 2014 he went from 8 receptions as a rookie, to 12 in 2015, then 69 his third year, before becoming a bonified stud this year with 91 receptions and over 1200 yards. He is 27 currently, so he didn't really produce until he was 26 years old. Sometimes you have to give a player a couple of seasons to get acclimated. 

 

 

Was he even drafted? I do not remember him at all. It makes more sense for lower picks to need extended time (several years in many cases) to develop, than 1st rounders., where It is a sliding scale of expectation, and  is the reason why they get drafted where they do, usually

[Voice_of_Reason]

52 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Was he even drafted? I do not remember him at all. It makes more sense for lower picks to need extended time (several years in many cases) to develop, than 1st rounders., where It is a sliding scale of expectation, and  is the reason why they get drafted where they do, usually

Completely agree. 

 

Also, good FOs will take chances with extremely physically talented, but extremely raw football wise guys in the later rounds. Guys who have the size/speed to be great, but just need to be coached up and get experience over a period of time.  It's ok if these guys take a while to develop because 1. they're not counted on to produce right away and 2. they have tremendous upside.

 

What we do is get underdog, try-hard high effort guys who seemingly can do the "dirty" work, but have much lower ceilings. 

 

Grant cannot be Thielen.  He just doesn't have the physical talent.  That's not a knock on him.  Few do.  But if your'e going to spend time developing a guy, you want to spend it developing a guy with really high upside.

 

Now to Doctson, he was basically hurt his entire rookie-year.  And training camp his second year.

 

So, the jury is out on how good he can be.  He might develop into a complete stud with a healthy off-season, full training camp.  

 

Or he could stay what he is.

 

We have no idea.  Which is why I don't believe you can go into next season COUNTING on him as a starting WR. If he develops into that, awesome.

[bowhunter]

Grant turned it on this season. We may be looking at his ceiling, but the 2016 fall downs seem to have completely disappeared. Grant was a much more reliable guy in 2017. Obviously Docs ceiling is MUCH higher, so I will remain optimistic that he makes a similar jump in 2018.