Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[NoCalMike]

The main reason I don't like the new policy is because it divides the team/players itself. I appreciated when the players were hand-in-hand regardless if they were kneeling or standing. It showed the team united despite their feelings on the protest.  It was a strong message to say "I support your right to do this, even if I choose not to and/or choose to protest in a different way"  It was a celebration of diversity which is one of the things the flag is supposed to stand for in the first place, yeah?

 

 

[@DCGoldPants]

coming in 2018. Videos of people in their USA logo t-shirts and hats at games buying food, walking in and out of the bathroom and doing whatever else during the Anthem or with the flag.

 

 

 

[Bang]

the entire kneeling "controversy" was a distraction.

Ask those who vehemently oppose it why they are kneeling and most of them will offer up a "don't care" ..  because for them the symbol is more important than the message. They have allowed the message to be lost in their ginned up anger,, never realizing that if they only listened, they'd stop kneeling.

So play up the angle and what do you know, the battle lines are redrawn and people who want to protest police behavior have to start yelling to even be heard over the new fight that was created.

This is how propaganda works, folks.

We are way way too easy to manipulate, and that means not only is it working,, it's been at work for a LONG time to condition response as quickly and surely as it does.

This is why i say just forget it and kickoff already. We allow screamers to dictate the discussion, and we need to stop giving them the floor.

Anyone can play the song in their home and stand up til their heart's content. 

 

~Bang

Edited May 23, 2018 by Bang

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

The second a team fines a player, it will go to the Courts to interpret whether this is allowed under the CBA and if it is, whether it is a legal and enforceable under employment/contract law. 

 

This isnt going away. The second a player is fined it will trigger years of litigation with the NFL seeking binding arbitration and the NFLPA filing an injunction/lawsuit in a favorable federal court district. NFL files a stay of the injunction, etc .. by this point we are all legal experts on federal employment law after following the Brady And Elliot sagas. 

 

1st issue for arbitration? Whether this has to be arbitrated.   

 

NFL should have just said the Anthem will be played 20 mins prior to kick off and players will remain in the locker room. Afterwards, players can come out and warm up for kick off. Done and done. 

[Mooka]

Problem now is that a player can make an even bigger scene if the kneel for the anthem then before. 

[luckydevil]

So are stadium concession stands going to stop selling food and merch during the anthem now? Oh wait I know the answer to that question. 

[Renegade7]

28 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I disagree with this entirely.

 

We don't have to agree on that one, I don't think anyone is going to take us seriously if we kneel for anything again, but that remains to be seen.

 

28 minutes ago, tshile said:

As for the rest of the post - I'm not trying t issue credit anywhere. I'm just trying to explain what I think is happening.

 

I think understanding why people are doing what they are doing, is incredibly vital to communicating with them. Understanding why people are kneeling is important. Understanding why people are mad about it (and no, not the "they just don't care that black people are dying" bull****) is important.

 

For some reason majority of us only seem to be willing to do one of the two. Like everything else our goto move is to build a wall between us and them so we don't have to acknowledge them.

 

Coming around full circle, we agree on this, we're just both pissed that it got to this point (for some similar and different reasons).

 

My position on what the NFL should've done isn't going to change, they are too large an organization to be taking the "superpower isolationist" route.  One minute they want to be progressive on domestic violence, then they are "reviewing" cheerleading work environments, then they are officially punishing anyone who chooses this method of protest. 

 

Like I said, they are in the middle of our culture wars because they are huge part of our culture, whether they like it or not. Outside looking in, this looks like a victory for Trump who blasted the NFL for not getting players protesting off the field.  Now they are, was it worth it?

 

 

8 minutes ago, Mooka said:

Problem now is that a player can make an even bigger scene if the kneel for the anthem then before. 

Yep, this really didn't fix anything, it's likely just going to make it worse.

[tshile]

@Renegade7 i agree with you.

 

I just think they were chasing the money, not taking a stand on a culture war. The moment there's more money (for the NFL) in allowing the protests, they'll allow it. hell, they'll make one of the season's months "protest month" if it brings enough money.

 

they'll sell protest pins int he parking lots.

 

maybe designate a color for the month sot hey have yet another version of every team's jersey to sell.

 

[Going Commando]

Color me unsurprised that the NFL chose the cowardly and regressive way out of a dilemma with complex moral and social issues at play.  Making money is all they care about and they know how to do it and these protests were getting in the way of that.

 

LOL at Mike Pence considering this a win.  He's such white trash.  As are his constituents.  The issue here wasn't that people were disrespecting the flag, it's that rich black men were protesting white supremacy in a visible way and White Trash America wanted the NFL to put them back in their place.

[justice98]

Man, I really dont wanna have to hear about this for another year.  

 

They should just stopped showing it on TV when this first started, drawing attention to it, and getting people all riled up   Most of this is probably happening or muted, at least.

Edited May 23, 2018 by justice98

[Going Commando]

White Trash America's patriotism is shallow horse****.

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

White Trash America's patriotism is shallow horse****.

 

There are absolutely people using patriotism to mask their racism.

 

There are also people with legitimate concern.

 

You not bothering to understand that isn't helping.

 

[luckydevil]

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

There are absolutely people using patriotism to mask their racism.

 

There are also people with legitimate concern.

 

You not bothering to understand that isn't helping.

 

 

What exactly is the concern here?

[visionary]

 

[Springfield]

6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

Man, I really dont wanna have to hear about this for another year.  

 

They should just stopped showing it on TV when this first started, drawing attention to it, and getting people all riled up   Most of this is probably happening or muted, at least.

 

I know this isn’t your point, but I grow tired of watching the national anthem on TV when I’m watching sporting events.  I would they prefer that they just skip it on TV.

[spjunkies]

Already posted 

Edited May 23, 2018 by spjunkies

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

And so it begins...

[luckydevil]

1 minute ago, Springfield said:

 

I know this isn’t your point, but I grow tired of watching the national anthem on TV when I’m watching sporting events.  I would they prefer that they just skip it on TV.

 

Or not play it at all at private events.

[tshile]

24 minutes ago, luckydevil said:

 

What exactly is the concern here?

 

Keeping in mind that I am not against the kneeling because I am able to separate their cause from this idea that it's disrespectful to the military...

 

there are people who either served themselves, or had family/friends who served, and maybe someone was killed or maybe someone was injured, and the flag and the anthem and the pledge are tributes to them. the #1 purpose of the 3 symbols is a tribute to them. you honor that tribute, you respect it, you appreciate it. 

 

they see people not honoring it, not respecting it, not appreciating it. they see that as an ultimate insult to them, or their loved ones, who may or may not have given the ultimate sacrifice.

 

i was not brought up in a military house hold, but i know enough people who have and been around enough people who have to understand what it can be like for those people and those families.  

 

people that will throw you out of their house if you so much as pop a chip in your mouth when the anthem is on. people that will dress you down in a heartbeat if you don't stop and show respect.

 

i imagine, though I'm not entirely sure, that this comes from the military beating this sort of thought into these peoples heads... to the point where they subscribe to it fully, and then they beat it into their children's heads, rise and repeat. 5 generations of military later, you have this mindset that cannot and will not be altered. not by anyone. not for any reason.

 

does everyone who was in the military or has friends/family in the military feel this way? of course not.

 

is everyone who's pretending they feel this way being honest? of course not. there's plenty of people using it for a cover to support their view when other motives are truly at play (racism certainly being one of them.)

 

but pretending these people don't exist is foolish and naive, and (ironically?) probably something that requires at least a somewhat sheltered life. they absolutely do exist. i don't agree with them, but i at least understand where they're coming from.  over the top patriotism makes me roll my eyes. veterans, even members of elite special forces, have come out and shown you can have nuance to this. it doesn't mean these people don't exist.

 

but there are people who have spent their entire life hauling around rifles for that flag. many have lost their lives. those that didn't lose their life or limbs, pledged to lose them to fight for it if they had to.

 

some of them take those symbols very, very seriously. i think it's childish and naive the way some of you just callously pretend they don't exist, and that it can only be a cover for racism.

 

( have a similarly harsh view for people who refuse to see the protester's side of it and that they're not being disrespectful, for what it's worth...)

Edited May 23, 2018 by tshile

[SoulSkin]

55 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

This seems like precisely why they also put in the language about possible 15 yard penalties, so they have another way to deter owners, chairmen, whatever from trying to show support if a player does choose to protest that way.

 

EDIT:: I conflated the reporting from yesterday with today's. I guess they were discussing it yesterday, but scrapped it. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to add it at some point.

Edited May 23, 2018 by SoulSkin

[Kilmer17]

15 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

And so it begins...

I think this is a fantastic response 

 

now what will players do?   Will they take less money to play for a franchise that supports their cause?  Will the team lose sponsors because of this?

[Llevron]

Kap got a job yet? 

[Sticksboi05]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

Keeping in mind that I am not against the kneeling because I am able to separate their cause from this idea that it's disrespectful to the military...

 

there are people who either served themselves, or had family/friends who served, and maybe someone was killed or maybe someone was injured, and the flag and the anthem and the pledge are tributes to them. the #1 purpose of the 3 symbols is a tribute to them. you honor that tribute, you respect it, you appreciate it. 

 

 

The U.S. military does not own the U.S. flag. The same people kneeling are often the ones volunteering at army medical centers and visiting troops overseas etc. That means a hell of a lot more than kneeling for a song. This is not some guy running onto a baseball field preparing to light the U.S. flag on fire.

[PleaseBlitz]

25 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

The U.S. military does not own the U.S. flag. The same people kneeling are often the ones volunteering at army medical centers and visiting troops overseas etc. That means a hell of a lot more than kneeling for a song. This is not some guy running onto a baseball field preparing to light the U.S. flag on fire.

 

They've also been EXTREMELY CLEAR that they are in no way protesting the military.  But the people who dislike their actions for whatever reason (probably racism) have to say "DER THEYRE DISPRECTIN' THE TROOPS" because reflecting on the fact that Americans are peacefully exercising their first amendment rights to protest for-real social injustice brings them to a place they can't defend honestly.

[AJ*]

If the players truly want to protest and still obey the rules they don't even have to acknowledge the anthem if they don't want to. Unless there's a rule that says you have to stand perfectly still they can simply go warm up, stretch, or do some exercises while the song is playing...as long as it's not kneeling lol.