The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[Koolblue13]

24 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I absolutely agree. But that has nothing to do with our roster construction.

 

I agree, for the record. I don’t feel good. But my view on our roster hasn’t changed. Mediocre. 

While the overall grade for the roster might be a C, I don't think it's a flat line across the board. I think the overall grade is a B TBH, but it's because we have some A units (DB,DL,WR,ST) and some D/F units (OL,TE,LBer) that will be dragged like an anchor by average  units (QB,RB).

[KDawg]

25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

While the overall grade for the roster might be a C, I don't think it's a flat line across the board. I think the overall grade is a B TBH, but it's because we have some A units (DB,DL,WR,ST) and some D/F units (OL,TE,LBer) that will be dragged like an anchor by average  units (QB,RB).

Semi in agreement. I don’t think DL is an A unit. I think DT is A+, though. DE is a C until proven otherwise. 
 

But you’re never going to have all C level players that makes your roster a C. It’s just not possible, so it’ll never be a flat line.

 

And for everyone replying, I’m not arguing that we should feel good about the roster (re: vs division or in general). What I’m saying is I don’t understand how the roster was viewed as solid by some before and now it’s not. 
 

The roster is better now than it was last year. Yes, it’s worse vs. the division but that’s not speaking on our roster, that’s comparing rosters. 
 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Semi in agreement. I don’t think DL is an A unit. I think DT is A+, though. DE is a C until proven otherwise. 
 

But you’re never going to have all C level players that makes your roster a C. It’s just not possible, so it’ll never be a flat line.

 

And for everyone replying, I’m not arguing that we should feel good about the roster (re: vs division or in general). What I’m saying is I don’t understand how the roster was viewed as solid by some before and now it’s not. 
 

The roster is better now than it was last year. Yes, it’s worse vs. the division but that’s not speaking on our roster, that’s comparing rosters. 
 

Going into the offseason we were told that we needed to upgrade the OL and the LBers and we obviously needed to upgrade TE and RB(which is passable. BRob looked alright and there is a reason for optimism, Gibby fumbles and needs a change in his usage, no healthy McKissic or CoP/3rddown back hurts). 

 

They didn't fix any of that and we lost a LBer and TE.

 

I don't like the EB hire at all either. I soured on Scott as much as anyone, but different isn't always an upgrade. Sure, he brings a lot more energy, but having someone yelling in your face feels a lot different when you're 2-6 and getting sacked pretty often.

[Number 44]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

They didn't fix any of that

They signed 2 OL and drafted 2 more, and they drafted a RB.  They also addressed needs at DB and Edge.  There are certainly questions that can be asked about who they took and didn't take, but I don't think addressing need is one of them.  If anything, one might argue that they focused too much on need.  

[HoggLife]

6 hours ago, samy316 said:

My main point about this offseason, is that we didn’t do enough to keep up with the rest of the division, which is suddenly the best division in the NFL, outside of the AFC North.  All three teams in the division got better, while we didn’t do enough to elevate.  Unfortunately, a lot of this has to do with the ownership saga, so we were limited and on a budget.  But this doesn’t negate the previous years of questionable offseason moves at QB under Rivera.  Unless the Giants fall back to earth next year, I’m predicting another last place finish.  If this were last year, or two years ago, I wouldn’t feel as down on this team as I do this go-around, but it almost looks like the division lapped us, while we stayed neutral.

 

If Rivera we’re simply just an HC, I wouldn’t blame him much for working with what’s given to him, but the fact that he has FO duties, and roster management powers, makes him the target if things go south.  We’re mediocre in coaching, and in roster management, which will ultimately be Ron’s undoing if or when this season goes off the rails.

I'd like to know what Dallas did to lap us. I think they had one of the worst off-season in the NFL. Then the Giants which I think did good in the draft I don't think they did any better then us. Danny Dimes got paid and I would expect them to not be as good as last year too. Now the Eagles they had a tremendous off-season and I dont see them falling from the top for a long time unless there is some major injuries. That is a tram that knew how to build right. 

[samy316]

4 hours ago, HoggLife said:

I'd like to know what Dallas did to lap us. I think they had one of the worst off-season in the NFL. Then the Giants which I think did good in the draft I don't think they did any better then us. Danny Dimes got paid and I would expect them to not be as good as last year too. Now the Eagles they had a tremendous off-season and I dont see them falling from the top for a long time unless there is some major injuries. That is a tram that knew how to build right. 

For one, the Giants got one of the best TE’s in the league for a bargain.  They now have a great receiving option for Daniel Jones. They also had a great draft, adding some legit WR’s to their offense. The Giants have a MUCH better coach in Daboll, so I expect the Giants to stay around that 9-10 win territory.  
 

The Cowboys I thought had a pretty good draft for once, but being a 12 win team already two years in a row, they still have the squad to get to the playoffs.

Edited May 30, 2023 by samy316

[DWinzit]

5 hours ago, Number 44 said:

They signed 2 OL and drafted 2 more, and they drafted a RB.  They also addressed needs at DB and Edge.  There are certainly questions that can be asked about who they took and didn't take, but I don't think addressing need is one of them.  If anything, one might argue that they focused too much on need.  

No one will argue they were focused too much on need. The problem was they had too many needs so needed to hone in their focus. That is where the questions arise. Outside of the DB's, most of the draft selections seem more like backup pieces they hope to work in for next year. They perhaps should have focused more usable picks for this season considering the needs at hand. Also, you brought up edge, did they address that need, tough call.

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Paulsen said ironically Bieineimy's scheme isn't much different from Scott's.  He thinks the improvement will be in the sequence of the plays, and that he's more detail driven.  Paulsen's main complaint was sequencing.

A few random thoughts on this: (and this is not directed at you, since you're quoting Paulsen, so it's just a jumping off point.)

 

1. I think almost all schemes in the NFL now are reasonably similar and have similar concepts.  There might actually be more differences in the run game than the pass game schemes.  The two main modern offensive origins, Walsh's West Coast Offense and the Air Coyrell offense have somewhat merged in concept over the years.  The footwork and route-timing of the WCO being blended in with the down-field passing of the Coyrell offense.  The language might be different, as one uses a number scheme and the other uses a word scheme, but the actual concepts have merged over the years. 

 

So it's not surprising Paulsen said the two are somewhat similar.  All offenses are kindof similar in that regard.

 

2. But what differentiates a good OC with an average/bad OC is how they game plan within a given week to take advantage of their opponents weaknesses while hiding their own at the same time accentuating their own strengths.  That's where Reid has been a genius, Gibbs was a genius at this as well.  We will see if EB is that same type of genius.  If he had as much to do with game planning as is being touted, then he will be.  

 

3. Which does, in some ways come down to play sequencing.  I felt, especially at the end, Scott was calling plays, not calling a game.  I had the same issue with Jay's play calling, and it was most obvious with Zorn.  

 

I think (and hope) EB can do the three things which make OC's exceptional:

 

1. He can understand whatever weakness he has on the OL Caveat: the FANS/MEDIA think the OL is a train wreck waiting to happen.  They might not.  We'll see what happens. Maybe they're right?  Maybe not. But let's assume we're right and the OL is a huge weakness. There ARE ways to limit the effect of that.  Hell, Walsh designed the WCO when he was OC in Cincy because they had a leaky OL. So, we'll see how much he can scheme around it.

 

2. The absolute strength of the offense is the WRs and RBs.  Basically the weapons.  Can he figure out how to make those strengths really potent?  

 

3. Can he find a weakness in the defense and exploit it.  

 

If he can do those 3 things, I think we'll be ok IF Howell plays somewhere between "average" and "good." Which I don't think is unreasonable to think he can.  Will he?  Unless you have a DeLorean time machine in the garage with a working flux capacitor and Mr. Fusion, it's impossible to say.

 

I feel like Howell can be Kirk.  I might be wrong about that.  But if he can be Kirk, this can be a good team. 

[tmandoug1]

Howell being Kirk gets us pick 18 in the 2024 draft, at which point we will draft DL.......Oline isn't leaky its a catastrophic flood. Not addressing the Oline since 2010 has been our problem. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's not the case.

[Koolblue13]

Not sure how we call RB a strength. I'm not saying that it's a weakness by any means, but as of now, we don't have a top 20 back and no CoP/3rd down type back. 

 

We were top 5 in yards and bottom 5 in average. That's absolutely horrible. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

3. Can he find a weakness in the defense and exploit it.  

 

 

Ironically Paulsen contradicted himself a little when explaining how Bieiniemy orchastrated practices.  He mentioned how Bieniemy took a common mesh route concept for example but added an unexpected twist.  And how he dresses plays up differently.  And changes the launch point of the QBs.  But still I'd say his main point was Bieiniemy's emphasis on details, hands on coaching and energy -- implying night and day better than Turner.

 

But overall, his point was most of the concepts are common from scheme to scheme and KC's have a lot in common with ours.

 

But I do think exploiting weaknesses in the defense is key.   Some NFL observors for example said the reason why the Giants beat us (granted barely and with some luck) with the season on the line even though arguably this team has a peg more talent was superior coaching.  Heck even Logan Paulsen who works for the team suggested their coaching was so good against us in those 2 games where they had this team's tendencies down, on both sides of the ball, whereas the Giants mixed up the game plans from one game to the other and had this team off balance at times. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Not sure how we call RB a strength. I'm not saying that it's a weakness by any means, but as of now, we don't have a top 20 back and no CoP/3rd down type back. 

 

We were top 5 in yards and bottom 5 in average. That's absolutely horrible. 

 

PFF likes to say if they wanted to upgrade a team's running game -- their first focus is improving the run blocking before getting the RB.   We got one of the worst run blocking units in the league last year.   Pass blocking was bad.  Run blocking about almost equally bad.   

 

I don't know if its going to improve much at least judging by PFF scores.  Bates seems a better pass blocker than run blocker.  Wylie doesn't jump out much score wise as a run blocker.   Leno is a better pass protector.  Cosmi is our best run blocker but can he stay healthy?  But yeah in short these RBs aren't exactly running off of the Hogs.

 

Eagles, Dallas, Giants all top of the half in the league in run blocking PFF wise.  We are 24th.  And 26th in pass blocking.

 

The good news is Chris Rodriguez is used to running behind a crap O line. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

21 hours ago, KDawg said:

Semi in agreement. I don’t think DL is an A unit. I think DT is A+, though. DE is a C until proven otherwise. 
 

But you’re never going to have all C level players that makes your roster a C. It’s just not possible, so it’ll never be a flat line.

 

And for everyone replying, I’m not arguing that we should feel good about the roster (re: vs division or in general). What I’m saying is I don’t understand how the roster was viewed as solid by some before and now it’s not. 
 

The roster is better now than it was last year. Yes, it’s worse vs. the division but that’s not speaking on our roster, that’s comparing rosters. 
 

 

lol, maybe I am more optmistic than you after all.  No way to me is edge C.  I am betting some granted on Chase but to me its B plus.  I know you aren't a big Sweat guy but the team apparently is high on him judging by Keim among others.    He mentioned he's the most likely next extension and they aren't waffiling on it.

 

I was listening to Logan Paulsen the other day and I couldn't quite make out whether it was his observation or what he heard directly from the DTs but in short mentioned the DTs like working off of Sweat and more so than working off Chase.  They have good chemistry cooking.  And the coaching likes how he developed as to setting the edge.  He has a borderline elite score from PFF, high 80s, the only player on our team with that score.   Am not saying I agree that he is the best player on the team.  But the fact that PFF is that high on him shows the team might not be crazy in digging Sweat.  

 

As for my personal opinion, I think Sweat is a good player and has developed as a good run stopper, too.  Not a finisher though.  So I don't love him but I like him.  While I wouldn't have taken Henry in the 5th round, there were some other players at that spot I preferred.  But between him, Obada, Toohill, etc -- the depth is decent on paper.

 

While I am disappointed as to Chase's off season stuff.  I expect even worse case scenario he's better than a C level player. 

 

I never felt great about the roster previously.  It's not that I thought they had a killer one.  But they were building it up, and I thought they had a 9 or 10 win season in them.  This season though I am slightly less optimistic even though the roster is slightly better.  Why?  Tough schedule.  And our division rivals build their teams with a sense of urgency and gusto that this team doesn't match IMO.  If we were playing in lets say AFC South, I think Ron and company can play chess against their FOs well enough where he's not overwhelmed.  But IMHO, he's outwitted and outmatched by the FOs in this division.

 

So I don't expect this come down from mediocrity to bad that most national observers expect.  But I'd be surprised if its anything better than mediocre whereas in the past i had some hope they'd slightly exceed that.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Once again, I'm 100% in agreement Sip. The Sweat dogging has to stop. He's a fantastic all around DE Obada and Toohill are great depth. JSW is also pretty good. Without Chase that's a B level unit. Better than average unit and a strength. If we could get a few more sacks from that unit, it would be an A+ group.

 

Playing in a top 3 division will definitely not help our luck.

 

28 hurries

14 hits

8 sacks

Edited May 30, 2023 by Koolblue13

[Chump Bailey]

I'd like to see Del Rio give more opportunities for William Bradley-King and give our rookies Jones and Henry some time too. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Chump Bailey

[KDawg]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Once again, I'm 100% in agreement Sip. The Sweat dogging has to stop. He's a fantastic all around DE Obada and Toohill are great depth. JSW is also pretty good. Without Chase that's a B level unit. Better than average unit and a strength. If we could get a few more sacks from that unit, it would be an A+ group.

 

Playing in a top 3 division will definitely not help our luck.

 

28 hurries

14 hits

8 sacks

Who’s dogging Sweat, though? 
 

He’s good. Not great. Okay against the run, good as a pass rusher but doesn’t finish. Has a good motor and size. Gets hands in passing lanes. He’s a solid B player. If his deal isn't astronomical I’m fine with having him back. 
 

Given Chase’s failure to show up for his team I prefer Sweat to stay now. Chase is the odd man out to me.

 

I give Chase a D right now. Not there for his team, not productive, always injured. B + D = C. 
 

Considering that the backups are C types, I’m fine with my C DE grade. Though, Sweat is probably closer to a B+ which would bring that up a slight bit.

Edited May 30, 2023 by KDawg

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I give Chase a D right now. Not there for his team, not productive, always injured.  

He gets a D- from me. If we could get something of value for Chase I'd deal him today now that he's damaged goods. I like what RR said about comparing Chase's contract situation to Payne's. He's pretty much telling Chase to prove your worth and Chase didn't even show up?

I was so excited to draft CY and now I'm open to trading him. 

[Koolblue13]

https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-bears/one-reason-a-chicago-bears-playoff-run-is-very-realistic/?fbclid=IwAR3nhIZ2IiNX0YIPPyEsPRxlImv3I0AQIhkpTTY2UB4sUNKQ-PrIjBohmVY

There is no reason to think Chicago has reached their level yet. However, people might be taking the wrong angle on this. One of the primary issues the Bears ran into last year was the tough array of quarterbacks they faced. It included Aaron Rodgers, Jalen Hurts, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, and Kirk Cousins. Even Jared Goff was playing good football last year. This time around could be very different. Seven of their games will be against either average quarterbacks or unproven ones.

• Jordan Love (2x)
• Baker Mayfield
• Sam Howell
• Jimmy Garoppolo (maybe?)
• Andy Dalton/Bryce Young
• Desmond Ridder

 

Stuff like this is just wild. Picture of SamWow on a Bears fan media site.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I give Chase a D right now. Not there for his team, not productive, always injured. B + D = C. 

 

Obada part time had 4 sacks.   Smith-Williams 3. Toohill is good against the run.  Then they added Henry.  As backups, this isn't a bad group.

 

I am dissapointed in Chase off the field.  But heck even playing not at full speed, he looked at a minimum like a C level player at the end of the season.  I'd be shocked if its anything lower than B level play from Chase. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Obada part time had 4 sacks.   Smith-Williams 3. Toohill is good against the run.  Then they added Henry.  As backups, this isn't a bad group.

 

I am dissapointed in Chase's off the field.  But heck even playing not at full speed, he looked at a minimum like a C level player at the end of the season.  I'd be shocked if its anything lower than B level play from Chase. 

 

I wouldn't be.

 

The backups are good backups. C level. 

 

Chase is not worth much as he's never available and doesn't produce. It's been years since his rookie season. 

 

Only way my DE grade changes is if Young proves it should. It's on him. 

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Obada part time had 4 sacks.   Smith-Williams 3. Toohill is good against the run.  Then they added Henry.  As backups, this isn't a bad group.

 

I am dissapointed in Chase off the field.  But heck even playing not at full speed, he looked at a minimum like a C level player at the end of the season.  I'd be shocked if its anything lower than B level play from Chase. 

We have 3 back up DEs that are borderline starters. I think as starters, C is fair. As back ups, they're A/B level. 

 

If Chase plays even at Sweats level, that's an A group to compliment our A+ DTs, but at worst, it's a strong B unit.

[Koolblue13]

I'd say that if we didn't go with Howell, Jimmy was the top option (if he even was), so I'd say that we dodged a bullet. Someone needs to keep a camera and microphone on Adams this offseason. ols

 

[88Comrade2000]

Jimmy G didn’t have surgery on his foot until March for the injury he suffered k last year.

 

Raiders were stupid to sign him. Will they try to lure Tom Brady to play instead of buying a slice of the team?

 

We avoided a big mistake there.

Edited May 30, 2023 by 88Comrade2000

[MartinC]

13 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I feel like Howell can be Kirk.  I might be wrong about that.  But if he can be Kirk, this can be a good team. 

I agree with everything you said here apart from maybe this. If you mean Cousins level of production then I would agree, though that might be a best case scenario. But stylistically and how they get that production will be different. IMO Cousins is a very good game manager who get the ball out and makes generally good decisions (right until you REALLY need him to make a good decision and then he finds the open linebacker ...),. Howell is more aggressive and will try to fit the ball into places and make plays Cousins just wont - that might give Howell a higher ceiling than Cousins but also a lower floor.

 

But if we can get Cousins levels of production without too many WTF moments this indeed can be a good team.

44 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Jimmy G didn’t have surgery on his foot until March for the injury he suffered k last year.

 

Raiders were stupid to sign him. Will they try to lure Tom Brady to play instead of buying a slice of the team?

 

We avoided a big mistake there.

 

By all reports we were never interested in Jimmy G this offseason. Which is a very good thing.

[philibusters]

On 5/29/2023 at 10:18 AM, KDawg said:

Semi in agreement. I don’t think DL is an A unit. I think DT is A+, though. DE is a C until proven otherwise. 
 

 

 

I think C is a bit harsh for the DE unit.   That may have been fair when it was Sweat and one of James Smith Williams and Efe Obada, but with Chase Young back, it should be a bit higher.  Chase Young has always been a good run defender even in his disappointing 2021 season and even though he only had one sack in 8 games in 2021 his pass rush win rate and pressure rate indicate over the long haul he is a 6 to 8 sack guy per season.  Based on that Sweat is maybe a B+ player and Young be in the same range.