The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I think C is a bit harsh for the DE unit.   That may have been fair when it was Sweat and one of James Smith Williams and Efe Obada, but with Chase Young back, it should be a bit higher.  Chase Young has always been a good run defender even in his disappointing 2021 season and even though he only had one sack in 8 games in 2021 his pass rush win rate and pressure rate indicate over the long haul he is a 6 to 8 sack guy per season.  Based on that Sweat is maybe a B+ player and Young be in the same range.

Disagree with basically all of this. Chase Young hasn’t played in two years. Best ability is availability. If he was a fifth rounder no one would be arguing any different.

 

People think Chase is a God because of draft position. He hasn’t proven squat in the NFL. I actually think the DE grade goes up without Young at this point.

 

If Young actually plays well this year I will reevaluate.

[philibusters]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-bears/one-reason-a-chicago-bears-playoff-run-is-very-realistic/?fbclid=IwAR3nhIZ2IiNX0YIPPyEsPRxlImv3I0AQIhkpTTY2UB4sUNKQ-PrIjBohmVY

There is no reason to think Chicago has reached their level yet. However, people might be taking the wrong angle on this. One of the primary issues the Bears ran into last year was the tough array of quarterbacks they faced. It included Aaron Rodgers, Jalen Hurts, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, and Kirk Cousins. Even Jared Goff was playing good football last year. This time around could be very different. Seven of their games will be against either average quarterbacks or unproven ones.

• Jordan Love (2x)
• Baker Mayfield
• Sam Howell
• Jimmy Garoppolo (maybe?)
• Andy Dalton/Bryce Young
• Desmond Ridder

 

Stuff like this is just wild. Picture of SamWow on a Bears fan media site.

 

On the whole, the article is probably correct that they quality of QB they will face this year won't be quite as tough as last year, but last year they played Mike White, Marcus Mariota, Bailey Zappe, Trey Lance, David Mills, and Carson Wentz so that is 6 games last year against weak QB's.  Every year you will face good and bad QB's. 

[philibusters]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Disagree with basically all of this. Chase Young hasn’t played in two years. Best ability is availability. If he was a fifth rounder no one would be arguing any different.

 

People think Chase is a God because of draft position. He hasn’t proven squat in the NFL. I actually think the DE grade goes up without Young at this point.

 

If Young actually plays well this year I will reevaluate.

 

 If the standard is pro-bowl player, he certainly has fallen short of that standard when healthy.  However, he has still been a reasonably good player when he has played.    In his rookie year, PFF gave him a 80 grade against the run, in 2021 in 7.5 games he had a 85 grade against the run, and then in his limited snaps last year he had a 78 grade against the run.  He is a good run defender.  Admittedly his pass rush grade is less impressive.  In 2020 when he 7 sacks they gave him a 76 pass rush grade, in 7.5 games in 2021 they gave him a 71 pass rush grade, and last year in 62 pass rush snaps he had a 63 pass rush grade.  In 2020 he had 40 pressures generating 7 sacks in 2021 in 7.5 games he had 24 pressures for 1 sack (in fairness he had a sack called back on an absolutely terrible rough the passing call) and last year in 62 pass rushing snaps he had 7 pressures.  All the data indicate he is a Montez Sweat type player.  Even the 114 snaps last year indicate he is still a decent player.  Granted availability is a thing, but I am way more optimistic about him this year.

[KDawg]

Just now, philibusters said:

 

 If the standard is pro-bowl player, he certainly has fallen short of that standard when healthy.  However, he has still been a reasonably good player when he has played.    In his rookie year, PFF gave him a 80 grade against the run, in 2021 in 7.5 games he had a 85 grade against the run, and then in his limited snaps last year he had a 78 grade against the run.  He is a good run defender.  Admittedly his pass rush grade is less impressive.  In 2020 when he 7 sacks they gave him a 76 pass rush grade, in 7.5 games in 2021 they gave him a 71 pass rush grade, and last year in 62 pass rush snaps he had a 63 pass rush grade.  In 2020 he had 40 pressures generating 7 sacks in 2021 in 7.5 games he had 24 pressures for 1 sack (in fairness he had a sack called back on an absolutely terrible rough the passing call) and last year in 62 pass rushing snaps he had 7 pressures.  All the data indicate he is a Montez Sweat type player.  Even the 114 snaps last year indicate he is still a decent player.  Granted availability is a thing, but I am way more optimistic about him this year.

 

As I said: Best ability is availability. He hasn't been. And so far in our 2023 sample size he doesn't care to be.

[Koolblue13]

27 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

People think Chase is a God

Find one.

24 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

On the whole, the article is probably correct that they quality of QB they will face this year won't be quite as tough as last year, but last year they played Mike White, Marcus Mariota, Bailey Zappe, Trey Lance, David Mills, and Carson Wentz so that is 6 games last year against weak QB's.  Every year you will face good and bad QB's. 

I just posted it because it had Howells picture of the example and a video about him. Weird for a Bears fan site to harp on our boy.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Find one.

 

 

Find one what? Commander fan that think Chase is a God? Go on Facebook or Reddit.

 

Non-Commander fan? All over the place.

Edited May 30, 2023 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Find one what? Commander fan that think Chase is a God? Go on Facebook or Reddit.

 

Non-Commander fan? All over the place.

 Dear god no   

I will say that there is a clear difference in thinking Chase has been a God in the league and him having the potential, because I don't know that that can be argued. He's just wasting it.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 Dear god no   

I will say that there is a clear difference in thinking Chase has been a God in the league and him having the potential, because I don't know that that can be argued. He's just wasting it.

 

Yes there is.

 

And he certainly has the potential.

 

But he hasn't done a thing to make anyone think he's going to live up to it. So (for me at least) he gets graded on what he's done. Which is squat.

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Yes there is.

 

And he certainly has the potential.

 

But he hasn't done a thing to make anyone think he's going to live up to it. So (for me at least) he gets graded on what he's done. Which is squat.

I think it's a balance. This is his prove it year for sure.

[MartinC]

55 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think it's a balance. This is his prove it year for sure.

Which is why it is stupid of him not to be at OTAs. He’s playing for his next contract either here or somewhere else. Skipping out on OTAs is not a good signal to the whole league.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

Which is why it is stupid of him not to be at OTAs. He’s playing for his next contract either here or somewhere else. Skipping out on OTAs is not a good signal to the whole league.

10000% agree with that. He never should have gotten the C on his jersey.

[88Comrade2000]

I think Chase isn’t long for this league. Wherever he gets his next contract; he won’t do much and probably will be out of the league before it ends.

[wit33]

17 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Not sure how we call RB a strength. I'm not saying that it's a weakness by any means, but as of now, we don't have a top 20 back and no CoP/3rd down type back. 

 

We were top 5 in yards and bottom 5 in average. That's absolutely horrible. 

 

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

PFF likes to say if they wanted to upgrade a team's running game -- their first focus is improving the run blocking before getting the RB.   We got one of the worst run blocking units in the league last year.   Pass blocking was bad.  Run blocking about almost equally bad.   

 

I don't know if its going to improve much at least judging by PFF scores.  Bates seems a better pass blocker than run blocker.  Wylie doesn't jump out much score wise as a run blocker.   Leno is a better pass protector.  Cosmi is our best run blocker but can he stay healthy?  But yeah in short these RBs aren't exactly running off of the Hogs.

 

Eagles, Dallas, Giants all top of the half in the league in run blocking PFF wise.  We are 24th.  And 26th in pass blocking.

 

The good news is Chris Rodriguez is used to running behind a crap O line. 

EB will hopefully cure all of this due to offensive talent at skill positions and an innovative approach to matriculating the ball up and down the field. 
 

Scheme and QB are responsible for 90% of numbers you listed. The elite Olineman perform anywhere, but all others are scheme and QB dependent.
 

For example, Wylie has taken some heat here, but from the limited snaps I’ve seen, you can tell he’s in sync with the drop back of each play and is patient with his initial punch to allow the elite QB to remain on schedule. He fits and understands the scheme and appears to be nasty. 

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

EB will hopefully cure all of this due to offensive talent at skill positions and an innovative approach to matriculating the ball up and down the field. 
 

Scheme and QB are responsible for 90% of numbers you listed. The elite Olineman perform anywhere, but all others are scheme and QB dependent.
 

For example, Wylie has taken some heat here, but from the limited snaps I’ve seen, you can tell he’s in sync with the drop back of each play and is patient with his initial punch to allow the elite QB to remain on schedule. He fits and understands the scheme and appears to be nasty. 

 

I like Bieniemy but banking on him fixing it all, seems a bit much for me.  But I do think he can help improve it.

 

When KC lost the SB years back, they blamed the loss largelry on the O line and in turn expended major resources to fix it.   Even though they did have Bieniemy at the time.

 

I know from other posts you think O line isn't where to put major resources.  But some of the big boy teams, Eagles-Chiefs included tend to go to town at those spots.

 

 

https://nypost.com/2023/02/07/chiefs-overhauled-offensive-line-was-built-for-super-bowl-2023/

 

Chiefs’ overhauled offensive line was built for this Super Bowl 2023 moment

...the Chiefs moved on from four of those linemen who are no longer in the league (including cutting Pro Bowl stalwarts Schwartz and Fisher) while Allegretti and Remmers (now with the Jets) have made just three starts since then in returning to backup roles. Wylie, who shifted to right tackle, is the only holdover starter as the Chiefs prepare for the vaunted Eagles’ pass rush in Super Bowl 2023. 

 

“Ultimately, I was brought here to win a Super Bowl,” said left tackle Orlando Brown Jr., arguably the prize addition. “You don’t get too many opportunities like this.” 

In the first three months after the Super Bowl loss, Veach spent big on Patriots free-agent left guard Joe Thuney (five years, $80 million), traded a late first-round pick for Brown while only having to drop 27 spots in the draft as part of a bigger package and stole center Creed Humphrey and right guard Trey Smith in the second and sixth rounds of the draft, respectively. Mahomes wasn’t going to be on the Colts’ Unprotected Andrew Luck Plan. 

“All of them are high IQ guys that understand football to another level,” Kelce said. 

 

...Three of the four additions — Brown, Humphrey and Thuney — were named Pro Bowlers in 2022. But the remade line’s biggest test to date again will be with extra eyeballs watching because the Eagles have 78 sacks in the regular season plus playoffs, which is nearing an NFL record (82). 

 

...The Chiefs were ranked the No. 4 offensive line in the NFL by Pro Football Focus, which declared Humphrey as the “new gold standard” for run-blocking centers. 

“Those front-five don’t get enough credit, but everyone in the locker room gives them all the credit they deserve,” said running back Jerick McKinnon, another 2021 addition. “Without them, nothing goes.”

Edited May 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Bieniemy but banking on him fixing it all, seems a bit much for me.  But I do think he can help improve it.

 

When KC lost the SB years back, they blamed the loss largelry on the O line and in turn expended major resources to fix it.   Even though they did have Bieniemy at the time.

 

I know from other posts you think O line isn't where to put major resources.  But some of the big boy teams, Eagles-Chiefs included tend to go to town at those spots.

 

 

https://nypost.com/2023/02/07/chiefs-overhauled-offensive-line-was-built-for-super-bowl-2023/

 

Chiefs’ overhauled offensive line was built for this Super Bowl 2023 moment

...the Chiefs moved on from four of those linemen who are no longer in the league (including cutting Pro Bowl stalwarts Schwartz and Fisher) while Allegretti and Remmers (now with the Jets) have made just three starts since then in returning to backup roles. Wylie, who shifted to right tackle, is the only holdover starter as the Chiefs prepare for the vaunted Eagles’ pass rush in Super Bowl 2023. 

 

“Ultimately, I was brought here to win a Super Bowl,” said left tackle Orlando Brown Jr., arguably the prize addition. “You don’t get too many opportunities like this.” 

In the first three months after the Super Bowl loss, Veach spent big on Patriots free-agent left guard Joe Thuney (five years, $80 million), traded a late first-round pick for Brown while only having to drop 27 spots in the draft as part of a bigger package and stole center Creed Humphrey and right guard Trey Smith in the second and sixth rounds of the draft, respectively. Mahomes wasn’t going to be on the Colts’ Unprotected Andrew Luck Plan. 

“All of them are high IQ guys that understand football to another level,” Kelce said. 

 

...Three of the four additions — Brown, Humphrey and Thuney — were named Pro Bowlers in 2022. But the remade line’s biggest test to date again will be with extra eyeballs watching because the Eagles have 78 sacks in the regular season plus playoffs, which is nearing an NFL record (82). 

 

...The Chiefs were ranked the No. 4 offensive line in the NFL by Pro Football Focus, which declared Humphrey as the “new gold standard” for run-blocking centers. 

“Those front-five don’t get enough credit, but everyone in the locker room gives them all the credit they deserve,” said running back Jerick McKinnon, another 2021 addition. “Without them, nothing goes.”

 

I might have gone a bit overboard with my previous statement. Using words like "fix" and "cure all" was a bit too strong. But I do believe that a solid coaching scheme can make a significant impact and help an offense reach a decent level of performance.

 

I'm really impressed by the talent we have in our skill positions. I honestly think they have the potential to be among the best in the league, and that's got me pretty excited. I'm quite bullish on what our offensive coordinator can accomplish with them.

 

When it comes to the offensive line, it's all relative. Different teams have different strategies, and there's no right or wrong approach. I understand why some teams invest heavily in tackles if their offense heavily relies on the passing game. However, the Chiefs seem to have taken a different route, being more economical with three to four spots on the offensive line and allocating more funds to one or two positions. It's all about finding a solid balance.

 

Interestingly, both Washington and KC are projected to allocate a similar amount of cap space to their offensive lines this upcoming season (roughly $43 million for Washington and $44 million for KC).

 

I personally love the idea of investing resources in the offensive line at any point. It's remarkable how valuable and impactful it can be to find competent linemen in later rounds of the draft. It's a position like no other in the NFL in terms of potential value and hit rate in later rounds.

 

[CobraCommander]

2 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I think Chase isn’t long for this league. Wherever he gets his next contract; he won’t do much and probably will be out of the league before it ends.

With our luck he'll go to the Steelers and get 15 sacks a season and become a legend in Pittsburgh.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

I might have gone a bit overboard with my previous statement. Using words like "fix" and "cure all" was a bit too strong. But I do believe that a solid coaching scheme can make a significant impact and help an offense reach a decent level of performance.

 

I'm really impressed by the talent we have in our skill positions. I honestly think they have the potential to be among the best in the league, and that's got me pretty excited. I'm quite bullish on what our offensive coordinator can accomplish with them.

 

When it comes to the offensive line, it's all relative. Different teams have different strategies, and there's no right or wrong approach. I understand why some teams invest heavily in tackles if their offense heavily relies on the passing game. However, the Chiefs seem to have taken a different route, being more economical with three to four spots on the offensive line and allocating more funds to one or two positions. It's all about finding a solid balance.

 

Interestingly, both Washington and KC are projected to allocate a similar amount of cap space to their offensive lines this upcoming season (roughly $43 million for Washington and $44 million for KC).

 

I personally love the idea of investing resources in the offensive line at any point. It's remarkable how valuable and impactful it can be to find competent linemen in later rounds of the draft. It's a position like no other in the NFL in terms of potential value and hit rate in later rounds.

 

 

The Chiefs deferred money with their O line signings.  We are spending more than them this year.  But in 2024, Chiefs have 17 million more allocated.  In 2025, 31 million more.  In 2026, 23 million more.

 

We don't like to prorate contracts as much as others in part I gather because the signing bonuses involve upfront money, Dan has had cash flow issues.  Plus Chiefs are trying to work a SB window. 

 

I agree with some of that post.  Ron did a nice job with the defense.  Nice job with the skilled positions on offense.  But IMO the O line will sink this team and the upshot will likely be same old same old.  I do agree that Bieniemy will make it better --- my guess is instead of a very bad o line, it will be elevated to just bad. I don't think it will be awful from game to game but I do think they will be overwhelmed by the teams with big time D lines which alas happens to be the teams in our division.

 

I disagree with PFF, Football Outsiders, Vegas, national media, draft geeks, etc that this will be a bad team.  I do think Ron has another 8-9 run in him.  Speaking for myself, yawn, and I'll look forward to his departure after the season or during the season.  Love the dude.  But enough with the mediocre runs for me.  But he served a major purpose in bringing class to an organization desperate for it.  And bringing some competence, too.

 

I hope am wrong.  But heck I am more optimistic than the fan base (judging by a poll with the majority of them expecting a losing season) and ditto the national media-Vegas, etc.  i do think Ron can pull off 8 wins.  Maybe if they get super lucky 9 wins.  I'd guess somewhere between 7-9 wins.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Chiefs deferred money with their O line signings.  We are spending more than them this year.  But in 2024, Chiefs have 17 million more allocated.  In 2025, 31 million more.  In 2026, 23 million more.

No doubt, committing dollars they have to Taylor will have them projected pretty high for next few years in terms of salary cap. 
 

Washington I imagine will likely gain on them with future contracts as they don’t have much money dedicated to the Oline past this season (that will change). 

 

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

We don't like to prorate contracts as much as others in part I gather because the signing bonuses involve upfront money, Dan has had cash flow issues.  Plus Chiefs are trying to work a SB window.

 

 

No doubt, much of it is relative. 
 

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with some of that post.  Ron did a nice job with the defense.  Nice job with the skilled positions on offense.  But IMO the O line will sink this team and the upshot will likely be same old same old.  I do agree that Bieniemy will make it better --- my guess is instead of a very bad o line, it will be elevated to just bad. I don't think it will be awful from game to game but I do think they will be overwhelmed by the teams with big time D lines which alas happens to be the teams in our division.

 

Too many solid competent players at Oline and guys who’ve been with this regime for them to wreck a season. If 4-6 Olineman miss significant time, I’m with you. Olineman missing a lot of time is almost inevitable and a team should consider themselves lucky if injuries don’t impact their Oline greatly in a season. 
 

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I disagree with PFF, Football Outsiders, Vegas, national media, draft geeks, etc that this will be a bad team.  I do think Ron has another 8-9 run in him.  Speaking for myself, yawn, and I'll look forward to his departure after the season or during the season.  Love the dude.  But enough with the mediocre runs for me.  But he served a major purpose in bringing class to an organization desperate for it.  And bringing some competence, too.

 

I hope am wrong.  But heck I am more optimistic than the fan base (judging by a poll with the majority of them expecting a losing season) and ditto the national media-Vegas, etc.  i do think Ron can pull off 8 wins.  Maybe if they get super lucky 9 wins.  I'd guess somewhere between 7-9 wins.

 

I’m with you on all this. My main gripe is Ron being average for much of this run, but the strange dichotomy for me is the way he decided to enter this season is bold and not ho him like. 
 

As with any organization without an elite QB, the ball must bounce their way 2-4 games to hit double digit wins. I think the absolute floor is 6 wins. 
 

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

Yup. 

[kingdaddy]

IF....the Raiders called about Jacoby Brissett would you trade him in exchange for Brian Hoyer and a 2nd round pick?

They are in big trouble with Jimmy G and we're one of the few teams who could possibly afford to move a somewhat proven starting QB option in Brissett. Maybe ask for a 2024 2nd and 2025 3rd that can become a 2nd depending on how much he plays for them? Or how bout taking rookie TE Michael Mayer from them? 

What is Brissetts real value to us if we don't start him?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

^^ Maybe they'll read the SI article lol...

 

 

 

[Conn]

Howell looking sharp in OTA’s might not mean a ton but it’s sure better than having to talk ourselves in circles trying to convince each other that this is meaningless:

 

 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

Howell looking sharp in OTA’s might not mean a ton but it’s sure better than having to talk ourselves in circles trying to convince each other that this is meaningless:

 

 

Wonder what elite looks like in OTAs in terms of passing accuracy. How common is it for the good to elite QBs to miss lay up type throws in OTAs versus average to below? If the QB is missing layup type throws each practice he better run a 4.4. 

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Wonder what elite looks like in OTAs in terms of passing accuracy. How common is it for the good to elite QBs to miss lay up type throws in OTAs versus average to below?

 

I don't think any QB in the NFL is bad enough to consistently miss lay-ups playing against air. These are still some of the best passers on the planet.

That being said guys go thru stuff. Some get a case of the yips, others throw thru injuries we may not know about while others still can crumble in the face of competition/pressure.

 

I think under normal circumstances even the most inaccurate group of QBs can hit a guy when throwing against air w/ decent consistency. If I see a dude having trouble in a throwline, I don't question the accuracy, I question if other things are going on. I put out there early last year in practice that Wentz was missing guys b/c he had a case a of yips, not because his accuracy was so bad he could not hit an open air target.

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I don't think any QB in the NFL is bad enough to consistently miss lay-ups playing against air. These are still some of the best passers on the planet.

That being said guys go thru stuff. Some get a case of the yips, others throw thru injuries we may not know about while others still can crumble in the face of competition/pressure.

 

I think under normal circumstances even the most inaccurate group of QBs can hit a guy when throwing against air w/ decent consistency. If I see a dude having trouble in a throwline, I don't question the accuracy, I question if other things are going on. I put out there early last year in practice that Wentz was missing guys b/c he had a case a of yips, not because his accuracy was so bad he could not hit an open air target.

 

All true.

 

Another reason is they struggle with timing and mechanics. Which can be an issue in the pros.

 

Looking good in passing lines isn't a cause for praise or excitement. But it is a check on the list that they aren't struggling on air. Which in our case is a new frontier. 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Too many solid competent players at Oline and guys who’ve been with this regime for them to wreck a season. If 4-6 Olineman miss significant time, I’m with you. Olineman missing a lot of time is almost inevitable and a team should consider themselves lucky if injuries don’t impact their Oline greatly in a season. 

 

Really none of them on paper are above average aside from Cosmi who can't stay healthy.  That's unusual as to the typical O line around the league.  There is a reason why Matt Miller for example from ESPN called it the shakiest O line in the league.

 

They don't have an O lineman that they can leave on an island to shut down an elite pass rusher.   None of these guys save Cosmi have pedigree as a run blocker.

 

No Trent.  Not Scherff type.  Heck arguably not even a Morgan Moses in their prime caliber player either.

 

And the depth isn't hot either.

 

So my though is at best its "meh" but I do agree it won't fall apart against the medicore D lines in the league.  But I do predict we get round 2 of hey why are the Giants D line, etc destroying our front?

 

19 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I’m with you on all this. My main gripe is Ron being average for much of this run, but the strange dichotomy for me is the way he decided to enter this season is bold and not ho him like. 

 

Not sure about that considering Brissett is very him.  Fitz was the best FA QB that year and they aggressively went out to get him.  Brissett arguably is very Fitz like signing  -- arguably the best QB you can find in that range of price, close to Fitz.  So he's not really riding naked with Howell.

 

Riding with ifs and buts at O line is very similar to last year.  Doing enough to ensure a high floor but not enough to make the ceiling enticing but basically not finishing the roster IMO is vintage Ron.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise