2022 Draft Order/Tracker: Now Picking #11

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

Agree with so much of this.  I really enjoy reading your posts, SIP - always well-thought out and nicely articulated. 

 

 

Thanks!

 

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

 

The bolded part above is the major problem I have with us having drafted Davis in the first last year.  (I have nothing against the guy, and he seems to be a good dude who is a student of the game and wants to hone his craft.  You gotta have guys like him.)  But you simply don't take a project like Jamin in the first round unless you truly believe he has all-pro potential.  I honestly can't recall any comments from the coaches that even hinted that they believe this to be the case.  They were desperate at LB, partly due to their own head-scratching decisions not to address the position in any meaningful way leading up to the draft, and took a guy who looked like he had a solid, promising future...one day.   There's a lot of talk about him realizing his potential and becoming a good, young player after another year or two.  You draft a guy like Jamin in the 3rd or 4th round, they're full of these kinds of players.  Another year or two for a first rounder?  I have a major problem with that kind of philosophy for anyone that's not a QB.  I see it as a wasted pick.  There were better players on the board that could help now and seem to have just as high a ceiling as Jamin.   This pick is haunting us.  For that pick to pan out, IMO, he's going to have to be darn near all-pro in a year or two.  I hope he is. 

 

 

I am kind of in between your thought and theirs on this.  JOK (Koramoah) is who I wanted at 19.  I liked Jamin Davis but saw him more as a last first-early 2nd type.   He has elite level athletcism for the spot and showed flashes, hence his draft status rose.   But he was pretty raw and inexperienced.  I also didn't love them having him play Mike.  He struck me as a weakside LB not a Mike.   He's not really a thumper or a London Fletcher play calling type considering his lack of experience.  He's a guy IMO with really good sideline to sideline range, can cover.  And has some pass rushing skill.  He's a guy I think we need to have patience with.  But yeah I would have taken someone else at 19. 

 

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

 

Not much to say about Dyami except that he's been a complete no-show this year despite having much more opportunity than previously thought due to Curtis' ongoing injury situation.  For Dyami not to have asserted his presence in any way, shape or form this year is completely unacceptable even for a third rounder.  He's had time to show at least flashes of something positive but he hasn't done it.  At all.  And this guy was being touted as one of the steals of the draft.  We should be feeling much more positive about him than we are currently.  We lack playmakers in the worst way all over this team (and we have to have more firepower at WR : 17 pts. a game ain't gonna get it in today's NFL on a consistent basis) and absolutely need this guy to take a tangible step-up next year.  I'm hoping this is the case, and I'm not questioning this guys' heart, etc., but this is about as bad a rookie season as you can have.

 

 

He's off to a bad start, I agree.   I'd give him another season though.  But the arrow to me isn't pointing up clearly.    Statisically speaking though more third round busts than successes.  i don't live and die with success in every round -- since it doesn't happen in any draft for anyone.  Will see about Dyami.  I have more hope right now in Jamin than i do Dyami. 

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

 

IMHO, I believe this offseason is the make-or-break one for Ron and his FO.  We can easily cement our position in the NFC East basement if we don't significantly improve.  Dallas is lightyears more talented than us, the Giants have a ton of talent that isn't being maximized at the moment but have 2 first rounders to go with other high picks in following rounds, Philly has a whopping 3 first rounders and an Oline that is already rock solid.  It isn't going to take much to pass us.  

 

 

  I somewhat agree mainly because all three might be making franchise altering decisions at the QB spot.  Ride with Hurts or upgrade?  Ditto Jones.  Ditto Heinicke.

 

Just based on what I've read, we of those three teams is most likely to make a major move at QB.  But I've debated this on the Qb thread where some seem happy to have the Giants land Russell Wilson or the Eagles land Watson.  To me that's nuts.   If our division rivals find a top 10 QB while we stay in the wilderness it will define the Ron era IMO.

 

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

 

 

Ron and co. have a ton to accomplish this offseason, and just the way I see things, I'm not so sure what Ron is building at the moment.  I like Ron but certainly don't view him as some messiah as a HC, and I do believe he has been given way too much power.  I know why he was but I don't view him as worthy of it.  Precious few are TBH.  

 

I get the point, I think he's 100% worthy of it but because of specific context.   That is, as Sheehan likes to say we out kicked our coverage when we got Rivera.    He's out of our league so to speak.  Not because he's the best coach in the NFL but because he's above average.  Coaching here is arguably the worst spot in the NFL.  Worst owner.  Wost stadium.  Worst facilities.  Bleeding fans.  it's the Siberia of the NFL.  We should be picking through the Jim Zorn strata of coaches. 

 

The fact that Rivera took the job was a great surprise.  The fact he wouldn't do it without control of personnel -- I get it.  In his shoes, I'd only take it in that context.  For multiple reasons but the key is to hopefully thwart Dan becoming the defacto GM. 

 

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

 From my perspective - and perhaps I'm just not seeing it for some reason, there's no real discernible identity or direction to what they are doing.  The D and O coordinators share responsibility in this, too, and plenty has been said about them.  IF there is a direction, it seems to be trying to turn back the clock and build a team that would be successful pre-1995.   

 

I think they got one.  They are playing into what Rivera has played up in his own rhetoric.  Win the trenches.  O line.  D line.  Might not feel that way after a bad game where we didn't win the trenches but it has been the formula for wins.  

3 hours ago, Redwards said:

 

 

I'm interested in what your take on that is.  Do you see a true direction with regard to identity, etc.?

 

D line.  O line.  RB.  Trenches-ball control team.  Tougher to execute that when you lose a number of key players on the roster.  They do though need a QB.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Redwards]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Thanks!

 

 

I am kind of in between your thought and theirs on this.  JOK (Koramoah) is who I wanted at 19.  I liked Jamin Davis but saw him more as a last first-early 2nd type.   He has elite level athletcism for the spot and showed flashes, hence his draft status rose.   But he was pretty raw and inexperienced.  I also didn't love them having him play Mike.  He struck me as a weakside LB not a Mike.   He's not really a thumper or a London Fletcher play calling type considering his lack of experience.  He's a guy IMO with really good sideline to sideline range, can cover.  And has some pass rushing skill.  He's a guy I think we need to have patience with.  But yeah I would have taken someone else at 19. 

 

 

He's off to a bad start, I agree.   I'd give him another season though.  But the arrow to me isn't pointing up clearly.    Statisically speaking though more third round busts than successes.  i don't live and die with success in every round -- since it doesn't happen in any draft for anyone.  Will see about Dyami.  I have more hope right now in Jamin than i do Dyami. 

 

  I somewhat agree mainly because all three might be making franchise altering decisions at the QB spot.  Ride with Hurts or upgrade?  Ditto Jones.  Ditto Heinicke.

 

Just based on what I've read, we of those three teams is most likely to make a major move at QB.  But I've debated this on the Qb thread where some seem happy to have the Giants land Russell Wilson or the Eagles land Watson.  To me that's nuts.   If our division rivals find a top 10 QB while we stay in the wilderness it will define the Ron era IMO.

 

 

I get the point, I think he's 100% worthy of it but because of specific context.   That is, as Sheehan likes to say we out kicked our coverage when we got Rivera.    He's out of our league so to speak.  Not because he's the best coach in the NFL but because he's above average.  Coaching here is arguably the worst spot in the NFL.  Worst owner.  Wost stadium.  Worst facilities.  Bleeding fans.  it's the Siberia of the NFL.  We should be picking through the Jim Zorn strata of coaches. 

 

The fact that Rivera took the job was a great surprise.  The fact he wouldn't do it without control of personnel -- I get it.  In his shoes, I'd only take it in that context.  For multiple reasons but the key is to hopefully thwart Dan becoming the defacto GM. 

 

 

I think they got one.  They are playing into what Rivera has played up in his own rhetoric.  Win the trenches.  O line.  D line.  Might not feel that way after a bad game where we didn't win the trenches but it has been the formula for wins.  

 

D line.  O line.  RB.  Trenches-ball control team.  Tougher to execute that when you lose a number of key players on the roster.  They do though need a QB.

 

The D line worries me.  If we're counting on it to be our focal point, which they've said it is, then were are underachieving so far.  The O line can definitely use a stud LT and solid player to replace Brandon S. after this year.  (I'm not expecting, nor do I want him to be retained.)   O line needs to be on the level of Philly's if that's what they are counting on.   Also, the RB situation truly worries me.  I love AG but man, this guy does not feel like a RB #1 at all to me.  Vision is really lacking, his suddenness is lacking, and the dude always had some sort of injury.  I don't think his body can take being a #1RB.  I really don't.  Yeah, he's big and muscular but that really doesn't mean much in terms of being able to stay relatively healthy.  Plus he's officially a fumbler now.  (Ron's blasé attitude about it truly irks me.  He kinda shrugs, says they'll work on it, but then says something akin to "What can you do?".  You sit him for a game if necessary. That's what you do.  No way Gibbs would have him out there with that kind of issue.  If you can't hold onto the rock it doesn't matter how much talent you have.)

 

For the trenches + RB formula to work for Ron, he's gotta take a big time, serious look at all three this offseason.  That includes the coordinators, IMO.  Serious, effective self-assessment has eluded this franchise forever.  In Year 3, I fully expect, as everyone should, for us to be maximizing our talent, even if we aren't the most talented.  We've not done that this year under Ron, and that truly worries me.  

 

Believe me, I know this is as good as it is going to get with this franchise regarding a head coach.  I've always said that you gotta enjoy the RR era and whatever that may bring because I just can't see us ascending past the wretched scandals that the owner has thrust upon us.  I think  you're spot-on with the Zornesque comment regarding the next level of head coach.  It's a frightening thought but a realistic one.  Nothing's written in stone, but in order to get a good coach we're going to have to continually give up ridiculous amounts of power that, in the end, doesn't give the franchise the best option to win.   Well...no sense in worrying about that stuff now.  Just gotta embrace the present.  

 

Thanks for the great response, SIP!

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Redwards said:

The D line worries me.  If we're counting on it to be our focal point, which they've said it is, then were are underachieving so far.  ent.  

 

 

the talent is there.  I think it will bounce back.  It's been mostly good but it should have been great.

 

16 minutes ago, Redwards said:

 The O line can definitely use a stud LT and solid player to replace Brandon S. after this year.  (I'm not expecting, nor do I want him to be retained.)   O

 

I like Scherff but considering his injury history and price tag I could move on.  Wes Schwetizer is a big loss, he was playing well.  We got one of the highest ranked O lines via PFF and that's in spite of being ravaged by injuries losing Roullier among other things.  They can use another guard but i think its close to being really good.

 

16 minutes ago, Redwards said:

 I love AG but man, this guy does not feel like a RB #1 at all to me.  Vision is really lacking, his suddenness is lacking, and the dude always had some sort of injury.  I don't think his body can take being a #1RB.  I really don't.  

 

I talked about this recently on the draft thread.   AG is good but IMO more as a complementary back.  RBs really on every team don't tend to last the full season these days.  Look at Barkley, McCaffrey among others.  It wears pretty much them all down.  Agree they need to add another.

 

16 minutes ago, Redwards said:

 Plus he's officially a fumbler now.  (Ron's blasé attitude about it truly irks me.  He kinda shrugs, says they'll work on it, but then says something akin to "What can you do?".  

 

I don't think he's too blase about it.  Clinton Portis for example on air was really annoyed how they bench Gibson for some series after (basically punishing him) the fumbles.  He doesn't like what it does to a RB psyche.  The Junkies in yesterday's interview flat out said to Rivera is he still mad at Gibson and Rivera didn't argue the premise of the question.

 

16 minutes ago, Redwards said:

 

For the trenches + RB formula to work for Ron, he's gotta take a big time, serious look at all three this offseason.  That includes the coordinators, IMO.  Serious, effective self-assessment has eluded this franchise forever.  In Year 3, I fully expect, as everyone should, for us to be maximizing our talent, even if we aren't the most talented.  We've not done that this year under Ron, and that truly worries me.  

 

The moves they made in the last off season to me made sense in the context of the previous season.  They didn't all work out but they made sense IMO.  I am interested in what they do this off season.  I do think they maximized their talent.  We ended up one of the most injured teams in the NFL and our seasons momentum was derailed on top of that with COVID.

 

If you told me before the season:  No Fitz.  No Chase for most of the season.  No Logan Thomas and Samuel for most of the season.  Deandre Carter and Seals Jones would be the top weapons after Terry.   O line would be banged up.  We'd lose Sweat for a bunch of the season, too.  And we'd have an undrafted QB leading the charge.  I'd guess 4-13.

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

I think Rivera's plan is to build up the roster first before going hard at QB. It's what Andy Reid did in KC, they didn't draft Mahomes until his FIFTH year there, but they traded for Alex Smith right away. Pete Carroll similar situation with Seattle, but he inherited Matt Hasselbeck. That way when the QB comes in he can immediately be successful. You look at the QBs in this past draft class, by all reports one of the best QB classes ever, but the only one that has looked even remotely okay is Mac Jones and even then he hasn't been a world beater statistically, he's just done well managing the game. Lawrence, Wilson, and Fields have all stunk and Lance can't see the field.

 

We absolutely need to address QB. I can understand year one, we had Haskins who did finish his rookie year strong so he felt he owed him a chance. This past offseason was the year to get one, but we weren't able to. In fairness we did make a legitimate offer for Stafford and by all reports we inquired into trading up into the top 10.

 

We absolutely must address QB in 2022 though.

[method man]

From a draft standpoint, it is looking like the strategy of taking inexperienced athletes with great RAS scores just does not pan out. Either they are too raw and not worth the draft position (like Davis) or they haven't proven their bodies are built for football (like Gibson and St Juste). The one guy that strategy has been a hit on has been Cosmi but he started since his freshman or sophomore year at Texas and even he's been banged up.

 

I guess part of it too is that these position coaches are not at the same level. For example, I would give Matsko or Hoener raw clay to work with but I don't think Sam Mills or Steve Russ are particularly impressive.

 

40 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think Rivera's plan is to build up the roster first before going hard at QB. It's what Andy Reid did in KC, they didn't draft Mahomes until his FIFTH year there, but they traded for Alex Smith right away. Pete Carroll similar situation with Seattle, but he inherited Matt Hasselbeck. That way when the QB comes in he can immediately be successful. You look at the QBs in this past draft class, by all reports one of the best QB classes ever, but the only one that has looked even remotely okay is Mac Jones and even then he hasn't been a world beater statistically, he's just done well managing the game. Lawrence, Wilson, and Fields have all stunk and Lance can't see the field.

 

We absolutely need to address QB. I can understand year one, we had Haskins who did finish his rookie year strong so he felt he owed him a chance. This past offseason was the year to get one, but we weren't able to. In fairness we did make a legitimate offer for Stafford and by all reports we inquired into trading up into the top 10.

 

We absolutely must address QB in 2022 though.

 

The added pressure is that not only does QB need to be addressed in 2022 but Ron has to hit on the guy. It's why I'd be willing to trade 2 1sts for Carr

[veteranskinsfan]

Does anyone believe that keeping the Kyle Smith to help in the draft would have prevented the Jamin Davis signing?  Kyle now works for the Atlanta Falcons.

Just curious.  Usually I do not obsess over lost draft opportunities.   For as much money as this team is paying in front office salaries it would be helpful if they

can get a few more picks right.   On Eagles WIP radio Eagle fans are hoping Howie Roseman deals their 3 first round picks to another team for a proven veteran since

Howie is so bad at drafting college players.

[method man]

Just now, veteranskinsfan said:

Does anyone believe that keeping the Kyle Smith to help in the draft would have prevented the Jamin Davis signing?  Kyle now works for the Atlanta Falcons.

Just curious.  Usually I do not obsess over lost draft opportunities.   For as much money as this team is paying in front office salaries it would be helpful if they

can get a few more picks right.   On Eagles WIP radio Eagle fans are hoping Howie Roseman deals their 3 first round picks to another team for a proven veteran since

Howie is so bad at drafting college players.

 

So a major reason Philly is bad at drafting players is because Lurie thinks he is a draftnik and actually watches a lot of tape on prospects. He was responsible for the Arcega-Whiteside pick for example. Also the stats people in Philly have more power than they should vs the football people. 

 

Regarding Kyle, I don't think it would have mattered.

[Warhead36]

While I liked Kyle Smith and would have been okay keeping him, I don't think he's some wunderkind GM. When he was let go there wasn't exactly a bum rush of teams to sign him, and he ended up getting I believe a lateral move going to the Eagles.

[Thinking Skins]

On 12/22/2021 at 2:35 PM, method man said:

From a draft standpoint, it is looking like the strategy of taking inexperienced athletes with great RAS scores just does not pan out. Either they are too raw and not worth the draft position (like Davis) or they haven't proven their bodies are built for football (like Gibson and St Juste). The one guy that strategy has been a hit on has been Cosmi but he started since his freshman or sophomore year at Texas and even he's been banged up.

This is a small sample though. I'd think that drafting for RAS is something similar has a higher likelihood to give you a talented team that could say make mistakes but recover fast enough that many wouldn't even know. That's what I liked (like) about Davis. It's what I like about Carter. Heck it's what almost saved us against Dallas and Philly. It's giving us opportunities in on single plays instead of forcing us to go 10 plays and 6 minutes to score. 

 

I think Ron saw that as a problem and it's why we brought in Gibson, Samuel, Brown, Carter, etc. We need more big plays. 

[88Comrade2000]

After Sunday, maybe we move up a spot in draft position.

[Riggo-toni]

At 6-11, we should have close to a top 5 pick.

[Riggo#44]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:06 AM, Painkiller said:

So in essence, stop worrying about our draft position as it relates to a "franchise" QB and enjoy the games.

Rationally and statistically, you're right and you make sense...then you see that lazy fly ball to centerfield Heinicke just lofted to Diggs and rationality goes out the window.

[CommDownMan]

12 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Rationally and statistically, you're right and you make sense...then you see that lazy fly ball to centerfield Heinicke just lofted to Diggs and rationality goes out the window.

 

Or at least enjoyment of the game. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by jsharrin55

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, jsharrin55 said:

 

Or at least enjoyment of the game. 

 

It's not so much Heinicke, but we're starting people off the street...and people are still ****ing about coaching.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

https://youtu.be/_-OnRQ4P0VY

[NoVaSkins21]

Is there way to update the Draft Tracker mid game. This one's a wrap anyway.

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

Is there way to update the Draft Tracker mid game. This one's a wrap anyway.

 

We would be picking #9. Which is what we are at now after the earlier games today and our pick doesn't change with lose tonight. 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by zskins

[Warhead36]

Those teams in the top 6 likely don't win a game the rest of the way. At best we can maybe get up to 7.

[757SeanTaylor21]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Those teams in the top 6 likely don't win a game the rest of the way. At best we can maybe get up to 7.

The giants got us. That's heading toward an easy dub for them

[kwitt]

I think we should go QB in the first round.  I also like doing the same damn thing in the second round.  Next year do the same thing.  Repeat until QB is acquired.

[CobraCommander]

Finally something we’re good at. I’d say we need to lay down in our last two games but we shouldn’t have any problem with that.

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

8 hours ago, zskins said:

 

We would be picking #9. Which is what we are at now after the earlier games today and our pick doesn't change with lose tonight. 

 

 

 

To provide a little more context on the table the following schedules are:

Giants - @ Chicago, vs Washington

Panthers - @ New Orleans, @ Tampa Bay

Seahawks - vs Detroit, @ Arizona

Bears - vs NYG, @ Minnesota

 

I’m going to go ahead and call an L for us against the Eagles, which makes the Chicago vs Giants game interesting as a Giants win (unlikely) would take it to the final day for a higher draft spot

 

Ultimately I’d guess we land 7th or 8th

[Captain James]

The sad thing about us potentially moving up in this draft is NY and Philly with their 2 first rounders, their fancy haircuts, and what not.

 

Kinda spoils the fun of us having a higher pick 😑

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Anyone tracking Bailey Zappe?  Good, bad? What's up

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Thirtyfive2seven said:

Anyone tracking Bailey Zappe?  Good, bad? What's up

 

There is a whole thread dedicated to the upcoming draft.