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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

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Sonny9TD

Sonny9TD

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Okay this is the last I'm talking about this because the two of you are beating a horse that is so dead that you killed it in its next life :ols:

 

True doesn't always mean right. I could say the Redskins running game was on point yesterday because they controlled the ball in the first half. That would be true. But it's only half looking at things. Both of you have points. Neither of you want to see the other side. True or not, for both of you, doesn't mean right.

 

I'm not trying to nit pick either of you. But I am trying to get across the point that this is a strange argument to be having... over... and over... and over...

 

Just making a logical point. He was the one who got a tad nasty and i had to retort in a logical fashion. But as for your point of over and over and over well

" I kneel in the long shadow of your excellence". Point taken

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Sonny9TD said:

 

But as for your point of over and over and over well I kneel in the long shadow of your excellence.

 

About someone sees that! Been trying to get that point across for years! But people keep questioning my sovereignty!

 

All hail the King? Or something?

 

:ols:

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Llevron

Llevron

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Neither point matters, to be honest. You guys are both looking at the wrong things (in my opinion, of course)

 

Im just asking for clarity at this point. Cause I dont remember comparing other QBs to Haskins against the bills. I do remember asking this guy if he looked at the other QBs after he said: 

1 hour ago, Sonny9TD said:

Any and all backup QB should be able to do what Haskins did yesterday. 

 

.....

.....

.....

 

I mean, if you look at what the other QBs did, that is a literally logical fallacy. To assume any and all QBs would come in and do exactly what he did, when they factually did not, is stupid. Im just asking for that to be acknowledged. Or honest in the fact that he is not making a fair argument rooted in facts. 

 

Regardless of if the Bills haven't really played that many good passing teams yet (hint, we aint one. And we werent before Haskins) the other QBs have preformed right about where Haskins has if you look at the numbers. And unless you watched the games (hint, he said he has not) then you have nothing else to go on other than those numbers. 

 

He is obviously not looking at the numbers. 

He has admitted to not watching the games.....

 

Then where is this argument coming from? That's my point. And to add to that, if you count the running games and pass protection (btw, the Redskins rate what? 19th in pass protection? Something like that) then why discount everything else that goes into game day? Im not just making **** up here. Im going by what we have. That, again, is my point. 

 

 

(I didnt day **** this time) 

 

 

I do have a ****ing job to do today though. That I have ignored to mess around with you guys. If what im saying above does not illustrate my point well enough than fine, I give. I know better than to think I can change some internet wunderkind's mind about this kind of stuff. You can have it. No hard feelings I just like calling out obvious bull**** when I see it. 

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Sonny9TD

Sonny9TD

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Wrong again lol 

 

See. Oil and water. Facts and whatever the hell you call that  (im just dickin around now guy lol) 

May a thousand fleas infest your camel.   Just kidding  

Who dat that said dat said who the hell said all that

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Voice_of_Reason

Voice_of_Reason

Posted
Posted

I took a little time and re-watched a little of the game yesterday, and here are my observations:

 

1. It definitely felt like Haskins was more comfortable getting the team in and out of the huddle.  I'm speculating, but the additional practice time, knowing he was the guy going in, and the fact that KO has been drilling it with him all seem to have paid off.  I bet there were still some missed protections and things like that, however, he got them into the huddle and up to the LOS quickly, and I don't believe they had a delay of game or had to take a penalty because they were running out of time.  This was a big step forward. 

 

2.  I liked a few of the throws he made.  It's tough to evaluate, because he just wasn't allowed to do much.  But he hit a couple really good throws here and there.  When he knows where he's going and sets his feet, he seems very accurate.  When he has to go from read 1, to 2, to 3, and has to move his feet around, his mechanics are all jumbled, and the ball gets away from him a bit.  As I watched, I kept thinking about THIS video (and the entire series) with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana about working on footwork.  If you haven't watched it, it's a master class on football mechanics from Walsh, and the guy demonstrating the skills is Montana.  And no, it doesn't get ANY better than that.  

 

3. I think that KO and Callahan are trying to give him things which he is comfortable with.  Which is fine.  But I also was struck with the number of times through scheme and play calling Haskins was asked to pass in "known passing situations."  They run so often on first down, and at time second down, that they ask Haskins to pass basically ONLY in high-leverage situations when the defense knows he's going to pass.

 

This has been a problem of mine since the Vikings game in 2014 when Jay called running plays on virtually every single first down, and the trend continued until the day he was fired.  Then Callahan doubled-down and has KO calling running plays not only on first down, but second down also.  THIS IS STUPID.  And it doesn't help the QB at all.

 

It's an entire misnomer that a good running game helps a rookie QB.  Or any QB for that matter.  What helps a QB is that the defense doesn't know what's coming, and therefore can't key on one thing.  The reason the running game is important is because if you run the ball well, then the defense at least has to respect it, and can't tee off on pass rush.  THAT'S the reason you run the ball.  So, if you're doing this right, you mix run/pass to keep the defense off-balance, and that is what is helpful to the QB.

 

The idea that you run the ball a ton and get yards out of it, and play "tough guy" football and don't ask your QB to do much results in 35 points in 4 games, which is an average of 8.75 points a game and is absolutely atrocious.

 

So bringing this back to Haskins, when you ask him basically ONLY to throw on 3rd downs, you're asking a lot of the kid.  The defense knows you have to throw, and it's the highest pressure situation.  And the margin of error is essentially zero.  And, FWIW, that would be true for Case, Colt, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, doesn't matter.  The difference is that TB14 and Aaron are much better equipped to make water out of wine in those situations than Case/Colt/Haskins.  

 

If KO and Callahan actually wanted to make life easier for Haskins, they would mix run/pass a lot more on early downs to confuse the defense, mix in more quick game, and give Haskins somewhere between 30-35 opportunities, though most of those opportunities would not be in high pressure situations.  Even if those opportunities are just WR screens, swing passes, screens, whatever, the more variety you have in the offense, the more the defense has to prepare for, and typically, the simpler the defensive scheeme is going to be, which is a benefit to the QB, and the offense as a whole.

 

Personally, what I would do is what the Patriots do when they (rarely) are struggling offensively. Even with the GOAT at QB.  Or what the Colts did with Peyton.  And at times what the Saints do with Brees.  They go hurry-up.  It simplifies everything. Even for the best QBs in the game.  The defense can't adjust.  You have a smaller set of plays.  Typically defenses play either 1 or 2 defenses when the offense is in hurry up, and they don't change, so you can study the hell out of that on tape.  The Patriots did this last night when they were struggling offensively.  They immediately picked up the tempo.  They still ran the ball.  And as soon as they did that, Brady started to heat up.  I know they lost the game in the end, but it was so obvious that they were frustrated offensively early, they immediately changed to up-tempo, and they immediately started to have more success.  

 

I doubt Callahan or KO are really flexible enough, or creative enough to come up with this.  In their minds, the best thing to do is essentially try and "bench" their QB while having him on the field.  Win with running the ball and defense, and only pass when necessary.  That seems to be the plan.  But it's a bad plan.  It has no margin for error, and has produced crappy results.  And it doesn't help Haskins growth or development one bit.

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Sonny9TD

Sonny9TD

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

It's an entire misnomer that a good running game helps a rookie QB.  Or any QB for that matter.  What helps a QB is that the defense doesn't know what's coming, and therefore can't key on one thing.  The reason the running game is important is because if you run the ball well, then the defense at least has to respect it, and can't tee off on pass rush.  THAT'S the reason you run the ball.  So, if you're doing this right, you mix run/pass to keep the defense off-balance, and that is what is helpful to the QB.

 

That is one in the same. Which is why it was mentioned. Why else would a running game help a QB. The only reason being the defense doesn't know what might be coming next. I thought that point i made was obvious. Sorry i didn't spell that out. What exactly did you think i meant?  I gots to know. Wait never mind. There is no other answer.

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Monkman56

Monkman56

Posted
Posted

Hoping Haskins gets all the reps until the next game so the team can get a much better evaluation on him. Against the Bills I saw a QB that was sticking to a safe script. Deep throws seemed off limits. Thats OK for now I suppose. That being said, he did not wow anyone, did'nt stink it up either. It was just boring as hell. One thing that stood out was his size and strength. He looked hard to tackle and thats good, ( kind of reminded me of a young Culpepper ). But this could lead to a false sense of security as he holds the ball way too long instead of throwing it away. Too many gang tackles and he'll just be another injured player on a consistently beat up team. Hopefully he finds the right balance of ball security and risk taking. I really think he should start for the rest of the season and see as much as possible, that way they'll see if he is the "one" or if another QB might be on the menu with our undoubtedly high draft pick coming up.  

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Sonny9TD

Sonny9TD

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Monkman56 said:

Hoping Haskins gets all the reps until the next game so the team can get a much better evaluation on him. Against the Bills I saw a QB that was sticking to a safe script. Deep throws seemed off limits. Thats OK for now I suppose. That being said, he did not wow anyone, did'nt stink it up either. It was just boring as hell. One thing that stood out was his size and strength. He looked hard to tackle and thats good, ( kind of reminded me of a young Culpepper ). But this could lead to a false sense of security as he holds the ball way too long instead of throwing it away. Too many gang tackles and he'll just be another injured player on a consistently beat up team. Hopefully he finds the right balance of ball security and risk taking. I really think he should start for the rest of the season and see as much as possible, that way they'll see if he is the "one" or if another QB might be on the menu with our undoubtedly high draft pick coming up.  

 

An excellent point.

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

taking issue with the author on this.  He's making some suppositions about the coach's intentions with Haskins based on this false premise.  QB is the most instinct reliant position on the field.  You don't process the sea of information that good QBs read each snap rationally or analytically.  Recognition and decision are instincts-driven gestalts.  And quarterbacks get tons more opportunity for unscripted playmaking than any other position.

 

I agree with your point.  But as for the coach's intentions with Haskins -- I don't think the author was inputing that this is a factor of Haskins' play time.  They seemed to be imputing that Callahan perhaps wants to essentially motivate Haskins and make him earn it.   That author is actually an outlier on that point, most who cover the team have said what's driving Callahan is he really really wants to win games and thinks at the moment he has the better shot to do it with Keenum.

 

I guess there is no way to know one way or another.  But personally my take is developing Haskins serves the team in a much greater way than winning a meaningless game or two at the end of the season albeit I don't blame Callahan for just wanting to win.   I would too in his shoes put that above Haskins development unless I was reassured by the FO that I am back regardless of how the season .   The fact that Haskins himself has been really clear that it helps him to play is the kicker for me on that subject. 

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Veryoldschool

Veryoldschool

Posted
Posted

I think we all want Haskins to continue to start and that is what I expect will happen.  The rest of the year is play for your job time for everyone and in the case of he probably needs to show enough to forestall the Skins from using a top pick for a QB.  I want them to invest in the OL with the top picks and I hope Haskins plays well enough so the Skins go in that direction.

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Llevron

Llevron

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sonny9TD said:

That is one in the same. Which is why it was mentioned. Why else would a running game help a QB. The only reason being the defense doesn't know what might be coming next. I thought that point i made was obvious. Sorry i didn't spell that out. What exactly did you think i meant?  I gots to know. Wait never mind. There is no other answer.

 

I think what VOR is saying, is that the way the Redskins ran the ball -- almost every 1st down, almost every 2nd down -- may get you some yardage, but it doesn't help fool your opponent. We knew watching when obvious passing downs were coming. 3rd and 8 and Peterson is off the field is obviously a passing down. Which allowed for the Bills to play accordingly. Knowing what the offense is going to do makes it much easier to defend, and thats what the Bills did. There was no surprise to the Redskins game plan. 

 

This is why everyone got sick when Callahan said hes going to run the ball to run the ball because running the ball means you win. He doesn't sound like he understand how offenses work in the NFL these days. in this sense, having a "good running game" doesn't really equate to keeping your opponent off balance with a run/pass mix. 

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Hooper

Hooper

Posted
Posted

I will say I'm getting a little uncomfortable with reading stuff from Czabe and even Sally Jenkins that is basically saying -- or in Czabe's case -- outright saying that Haskins is dumb.

 

He's 22. Not every QB is super polished out on the field or off the field out of the gate.

 

Hell, Brett Favre was literally a drunk who didn't know any of the plays in Atlanta and even Green Bay until he was made the starter. He is open about that. 

 

Dumb... lazy... kinda weird how it's always the black QBS they say that about. 

 

 

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Warhead36

Warhead36

Posted
Posted

I don't think Haskins is dumb or lazy, but I think he's one of those guys that needs to be pushed. You have to go to him, he doesn't seem to be one of those guys that can self engage. But if you give him an opportunity and get ON him, push him, he'll respond.

 

The problem is that Gruden just buried him early and didn't show him anything, so Haskins shut down.

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Thinking Skins

Thinking Skins

Posted
Posted

These are some tweets I found interesting regarding yesterday's game and post-game. 

 

Haskins says he took a step today despite the loss. Got more comfortable as the game went.
Twitter Search / CraigHoffman by (@CraigHoffman)

 

Bill says he’s really happy with how Dwayne managed the game. They broke the huddle with time on the clock. Minimal playcalling errors. They emphasized the operational stuff with him this week and on that front he was good today.
Twitter Search / CraigHoffman by (@CraigHoffman)

 

Quinn was wide open. Screaming open. Haskins had no chance. Protection gives him an ounce of time and it's an easy throw for a monster game. That's brutal man.
Twitter Search / CraigHoffman by (@CraigHoffman)

 

GREAT ball to Richardson for the first down. That was your first official flash. Had to have it. Beat the coverage with the arm. That was NICE from Haskins.
Twitter Search / CraigHoffman by (@CraigHoffman)

 

Callahan says Haskins managed the offense well. His reads were clean. “He didn’t force a lot of throws”
Twitter Search / JPFinlayNBCS by (@JPFinlayNBCS)

 

Went back and charted Haskins pre-snap process throughout his first start. Try to chart the play clock as the huddle broke (not always possible) and the play clock as the ball was snapped. Broke it down by quarters. #Redskinspic.twitter.com/F9K83K3QsC
Twitter Search / InstantRHIplay by (@MarkBullockNFL)

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DJHJR86

DJHJR86

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Hooper said:

I will say I'm getting a little uncomfortable with reading stuff from Czabe and even Sally Jenkins that is basically saying -- or in Czabe's case -- outright saying that Haskins is dumb. 

 

Czaban did not say that.  At all.  You do know that with this team, especially when they are losing, where there is smoke...there's fire?  

 

 

 

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