New GM search

[FrFan]

1 hour ago, Alexa said:

 Plus he'll still have the Allen's cronies in the building for support. 

And to choke them if necessary

[zoony]

If the GMSM situation is any indication, there is a severe lack of executive talent in the league. I suspect a good ole boys network fostering safe harbor for aging jocks and legacies (SM himself is a legacy) has created a situation where teams like the redskins will hire employees with a history of drinking problems because they are perceived to be competent

 

the answer I think is to not look in the NFL for our talent guy. I would look completely outside of the sport actually... for that matter, outside of sports in general. 

 

Question for the room, how long would it take an MIT or Harvard  Economist coming in off the street to scale up?  Or what about a successful executive skilled in organization and people?

 

and follow up question, what would their ceiling be as opposed to, say, Doug Williams?

[spjunkies]

Zoony, the Browns have kinda adopted your formula except they hired a baseball dude. I'm really curious to see how it works out for them.

[Riggo-toni]

One thing about Doug Williams scouting career - it's been as a pro scout, NOT as an evaluator of draft prospects.

[bedlamVR]

I totally agree with you Zoony ... to the extent that ... no actually I think you might be on to something 

 

I think you are right it is such a closed circle you kind of need to break the cycle and look elsewhere .

 

if they didn't have a founding in football then I think they would struggle to begin with but with time and someone willing to tutor them (or with a good reliable scouting team) it would not be an issue ... but someone say like a CEO  from a Fortune 500 company could be a breath of fresh air, maybe because they would not focus on 'football' things . I often think personality is as important as ability ...

 

My concern with what the browns are doing is they seem to be basing everything on metrics and statistics and I am not sure the data is there to support that approach - sure you can measure and compare things but it means nothing if the things you are measuring are meaningless ... 

 

 

[clskinsfan]

44 minutes ago, zoony said:

If the GMSM situation is any indication, there is a severe lack of executive talent in the league. I suspect a good ole boys network fostering safe harbor for aging jocks and legacies (SM himself is a legacy) has created a situation where teams like the redskins will hire employees with a history of drinking problems because they are perceived to be competent

 

the answer I think is to not look in the NFL for our talent guy. I would look completely outside of the sport actually... for that matter, outside of sports in general. 

 

Question for the room, how long would it take an MIT or Harvard  Economist coming in off the street to scale up?  Or what about a successful executive skilled in organization and people?

 

and follow up question, what would their ceiling be as opposed to, say, Doug Williams?

 

I think Cleveland is kind of trying to do this right now. They are playing Moneyball with an ex MLB guy. One thing about the NFL is that it is a copycat league. If they have success. You will see it happening everywhere.

[London Kev]

3 hours ago, Alexa said:

I'm willing to give it a shot and be positive if Doug is hired.  Elway didn't have any front office experience and he's done pretty well. Doug has been a scout, player, coach, he's more qualified than Elway was. Plus he'll still have the Allen's cronies in the building for support. 

 

Good point on Elway. I would prefer someone brought in from outside the organisation, but don't really know who. If they do hire Doug Williams then I would obviously hope that it's a great success, but am not convinced.

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, zoony said:

If the GMSM situation is any indication, there is a severe lack of executive talent in the league. I suspect a good ole boys network fostering safe harbor for aging jocks and legacies (SM himself is a legacy) has created a situation where teams like the redskins will hire employees with a history of drinking problems because they are perceived to be competent

 

the answer I think is to not look in the NFL for our talent guy. I would look completely outside of the sport actually... for that matter, outside of sports in general. 

 

Question for the room, how long would it take an MIT or Harvard  Economist coming in off the street to scale up?  Or what about a successful executive skilled in organization and people?

 

and follow up question, what would their ceiling be as opposed to, say, Doug Williams?

Definately an interesting point of attack of the position.

 

There's still some flaws here.

Most people believe that GM have to be great talent evaluator to be worth it (ie: Scot's type of guy). I doubt a guy from the MIT or Harvard would know in 2/3 play if the guy can cut it.

So this guy would need help and seasoning with coaches, and actual scouts to rely on them.

 

I believe, that yes, you need someone that is really, really good in evaluating players' bio, IQ, and everything that is related to it like behavior and so on...

The guy needs to be a good seller/buyer as well, with not so much remorse when you have to cut a guy.

 

Now, do you really believe someone from the MIT or Harvard would want to be a NFL GM? I tend to think they dream of something else.

 

Btw, there's 32 guys around here that are annual GM, do you think we should send Bruce our resume? Maybe there's a diamond in the rough within us!

[zoony]

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

Definately an interesting point of attack of the position.

 

There's still some flaws here.

Most people believe that GM have to be great talent evaluator to be worth it (ie: Scot's type of guy). I doubt a guy from the MIT or Harvard would know in 2/3 play if the guy can cut it.

So this guy would need help and seasoning with coaches, and actual scouts to rely on them.

 

I believe, that yes, you need someone that is really, really good in evaluating players' bio, IQ, and everything that is related to it like behavior and so on...

The guy needs to be a good seller/buyer as well, with not so much remorse when you have to cut a guy.

 

Now, do you really believe someone from the MIT or Harvard would want to be a NFL GM? I tend to think they dream of something else.

 

Btw, there's 32 guys around here that are annual GM, do you think we should send Bruce our resume? Maybe there's a diamond in the rough within us!

 

Scott said it himself, player evaluation was always a collaborative process. That was everywhere going back to Green Bay. He was never a mad scientist calling in his picks from his bunker. 

 

What would be more beneficial in the short term would be for someone to come in and 

a. Organize our talent acquisition group from a manpower and resource perspective. 

b. Foster a collaborative atmosphere

c. Identify and apply metrics

 

none of the above, I would argue, would require knowing which 330 pound lard ass would make the best tackle by watching game tape. Let Scott Campbell and Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky make those decisions in the short term.

 

However I suspect that Mr Harvard will catch on pretty quickly in that area regardless.  Let's not pretend like only great academics and wizards can watch mr.lardass on film and project his future success

[FrFan]

48 minutes ago, zoony said:

However I suspect that Mr Harvard will catch on pretty quickly in that area regardless.  Let's not pretend like only great academics and wizards can watch mr.lardass on film and project his future success

It seems that your theory is growing in the MLB, why not in the NFL !

How Ten MLB General Managers Began Their Sports Careers

"The majority of recent General Manager hires are Ivy League educated, Economics and Business majors without much, if any, true playing experience. This is in direct contrast to the longer tenured General Managers, who have a more direct baseball playing history and then came up in the scouting ranks before achieving their current position."

Where Do NFL GMs Come From? (21 scouts !)

[Skinsinparadise]

A ton to chew on in this one.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/redskins-casting-wide-net-in-gm-search-that-might-ultimately-result-in-few-takers/

 

Redskins are trying and they are casting a wide net, reaching out to potential general managers who have enjoyed success with Pittsburgh, Seattle, Green Bay and elsewhere. Their goal is to land someone with a very strong resume from one of the NFL’s top franchises -- precisely the kind of guys who would generally want nothing to do with this type of opening.

 

Sources said the team is dangling a salary in the $1.5 million-per-year range, which won’t blow anyone uber-qualified away. Several of Washington’s targets have already bailed out at the initial stage -- disinterested in even interviewing for the job -- because of concerns over how Snyder has run the team and the over-reaching powers of Bruce Allen, the team president.

 

But they most definitely continue to look around and this process is hardly limited to people like former Buccaneers GM Mark Dominik, who worked with Allen in Tampa, or former Chargers GM A.J. Smith (neither of whom is expected to land the position), who was brought in as a consultant years ago and is tight with Allen. Another name mentioned, NFL Network draft guru Mike Mayock, has been linked to the job as well.

 

The Redskins are trying to land someone established and currently with a winning franchise.

The primary issue that many of those A-List types have is the age-old one in Washington -- who really has the power?

 

Allen isn’t going anywhere in the short term it seems -- some believe he is a made man at least unless or until Snyder gets a new stadium built -- and that’s a problem. Allen controls the Redskins’ pursue strings, budgets and can effectively veto moves by dissuading the owner from opening the coffers for a particular players (oh, like, say franchise-tag quarterback Kirk Cousins a year ago).

 

If Allen controls the money -- and he has since he’s been there even during McCloughan’s brief heyday of “personnel control” -- then he controls the building.

Oh, and there are the same old issues as well about whether or not Snyder will really spend sufficiently on his scouts, evaluators and infrastructure within football operations to procure and retain the type of front office staff it generally requires to win at the highest levels. It takes a village my friends, not just a GM, and if the prime candidates feel they won’t get the purse to bring in their most trusted lieutenants, then the job looks even less appealing.

 

So, let’s call it an uphill chore. And one that might ultimately result in few takers.

Which would bring the Redskins back to the kind of figurehead, puppet regime many believe Allen wants deep down inside, with little to no checks and balances in personnel decisions. Furthermore, given the unusual timing of Washington’s GM search, teams could block any current employee from interviewing for the job if they so choose.

[NewCliche21]

22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A ton to chew on in this one.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/redskins-casting-wide-net-in-gm-search-that-might-ultimately-result-in-few-takers/

</snip>

 

This is infuriating.  You'll blow tens of millions on crappy players but not ten million over a few years to get a guy who won't let you hire crappy players?  Where is the business sense in that?

 

Nobody wants to come here, so you've gotta compensate for that with your wallet.  The more I read, the more that I think that Bruce is a liability and not as much an asset.

[Andre The Giant]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A ton to chew on in this one.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/redskins-casting-wide-net-in-gm-search-that-might-ultimately-result-in-few-takers/

 

Redskins are trying and they are casting a wide net, reaching out to potential general managers who have enjoyed success with Pittsburgh, Seattle, Green Bay and elsewhere. Their goal is to land someone with a very strong resume from one of the NFL’s top franchises -- precisely the kind of guys who would generally want nothing to do with this type of opening.

 

Sources said the team is dangling a salary in the $1.5 million-per-year range, which won’t blow anyone uber-qualified away. Several of Washington’s targets have already bailed out at the initial stage -- disinterested in even interviewing for the job -- because of concerns over how Snyder has run the team and the over-reaching powers of Bruce Allen, the team president.

 

But they most definitely continue to look around and this process is hardly limited to people like former Buccaneers GM Mark Dominik, who worked with Allen in Tampa, or former Chargers GM A.J. Smith (neither of whom is expected to land the position), who was brought in as a consultant years ago and is tight with Allen. Another name mentioned, NFL Network draft guru Mike Mayock, has been linked to the job as well.

 

The Redskins are trying to land someone established and currently with a winning franchise.

The primary issue that many of those A-List types have is the age-old one in Washington -- who really has the power?

 

Allen isn’t going anywhere in the short term it seems -- some believe he is a made man at least unless or until Snyder gets a new stadium built -- and that’s a problem. Allen controls the Redskins’ pursue strings, budgets and can effectively veto moves by dissuading the owner from opening the coffers for a particular players (oh, like, say franchise-tag quarterback Kirk Cousins a year ago).

 

If Allen controls the money -- and he has since he’s been there even during McCloughan’s brief heyday of “personnel control” -- then he controls the building.

Oh, and there are the same old issues as well about whether or not Snyder will really spend sufficiently on his scouts, evaluators and infrastructure within football operations to procure and retain the type of front office staff it generally requires to win at the highest levels. It takes a village my friends, not just a GM, and if the prime candidates feel they won’t get the purse to bring in their most trusted lieutenants, then the job looks even less appealing.

 

So, let’s call it an uphill chore. And one that might ultimately result in few takers.

Which would bring the Redskins back to the kind of figurehead, puppet regime many believe Allen wants deep down inside, with little to no checks and balances in personnel decisions. Furthermore, given the unusual timing of Washington’s GM search, teams could block any current employee from interviewing for the job if they so choose.

 

This is great news and exactly what they should be doing (imho).  I'm not sure who they'll be able to get, but I applaud their efforts.  We'll see if they're ultimately serious about taking this path, or if it's more just a thorough "Al Davis-style" information gathering process (e.g. the Head Coach and Defensive Coordinator searches).

[zoony]

2 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

This is infuriating.  You'll blow tens of millions on crappy players but not ten million over a few years to get a guy who won't let you hire crappy players?  Where is the business sense in that?

 

Nobody wants to come here, so you've gotta compensate for that with your wallet.  The more I read, the more that I think that Bruce is a liability and not as much an asset.

 

Albert Haynesworths AGENT made more money off his Redskins contract than Dan and Bruce are willing to pay a potential GM.  Just outstanding.  Outstanding

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Nobody wants to come here, so you've gotta compensate for that with your wallet.  The more I read, the more that I think that Bruce is a liability and not as much an asset.

 

We got the narrative on losing Pleasant to be the secondary coach because they wouldn't pay him anything decent and the Rams were willing to do so.  

 

In that Laconfora article, he suggested Bruce talked Danny out of signing Kirk to a LTC I'd presume in 2016.

 

Heck I am only being partly facetious when I think about the comment in one of the Scot/Bruce articles that mentioned Bruce brushes his teeth with Coors Light. Bruce you are a millionaire, you can afford better than Coors Light.  

 

They don't want to pay top dollar for a GM and that article wasn't the first one I've seen mentioning that they don't like to spend a ton on scouts.

 

Vinny was overzealous and made dumb moves and overpaid for targets but I don't embrace the opposite where we are too cheap to get the target.  

 

I didn't really think much of it at the time but Grant and Danny would run a gag every now and then on the show about Bruce being cheap.  Grant said he heard this about Bruce from multiple people at Redskins Park.   So they gag about Bruce would likely stick them with the bill if they went out for lunch, just order an appetizer, etc.  Grant's other line about Bruce relating to Kirk has been what makes people think Bruce is going to spend that extra cap room they'd save on acquiring more players -- that's not his gig, he's more likely to roll over that money and pocket it for the team.  I'd blow that stuff off because it was said during happier/more prosperous times for the team.  But in light of current circumstances, I take that stuff more seriously. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Laconfora was on the radio a little while ago.  he didn't add much to the article except:  he said he talked to some of the prospects that they spoke to.  Some laughed at the 1.5 million figure saying they already are getting paid more than that in their current job.  Some see it as a ruse that Bruce will be the guy calling the shots so they have no interest.   Scot has a lot of friends in the league so there is some bad feelings/vibes about this FO considering how they handled his departure. 

 

They might be able to get one of the top targets if they offer more money and allow that person to invest in scouting and bring their own people.  Otherwise Laconfora thinks they still might be able to get someone but its unlikely one of their top targets.  What I found interesting and goes against the grain of what some of the local reporters have said is that they'd take a new GM now if they took their offer.  Laconfora didn't say how many people have rebuffed them but it sounds like its multiple people so far.  

[Conn]

I won't have hope for this team until they bring in a qualified GM and it is made known that he actually has final say, over contracts and personnel. "How will you know it's real this time, after Scot?" You may ask. Because, coincidentally, 99% of the people I'd consider qualified for the position would never take it unless that's the amount of power they were given, as far as I can tell. Scot was the unlikely 1% with big enough red flags of his own that he wasn't in a position to be picky. So it will be self-evident if it ever happens. Until then? Gonna be tough to get me excited about any internal hire, any media guy or former player, or anyone who could conceivably accept this position without being given full control and the resources needed to succeed.

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

I won't have hope for this team until they bring in a qualified GM and it is made known that he actually has final say, over contracts and personnel. "How will you know it's real this time, after Scot?" You may ask. Because, coincidentally, 99% of the people I'd consider qualified for the position would never take it unless that's the amount of power they were given, as far as I can tell. Scot was the unlikely 1% with big enough red flags of his own that he wasn't in a position to be picky. So it will be self-evident if it ever happens. Until then? Gonna be tough to get me excited about any internal hire, any media guy or former player, or anyone who could conceivably accept this position without being given full control the resources needed to succeed.

 

I agree.  I am just coming with a deep level of desperation where I see three mostly likely scenarios

 

1.  Parading a GM that isn't regarded as anything special and not caring what people think of it.  

 

2.  Having a smart personnel guy in the house with Bruce overseeing that person and making the final call

 

3.  Having a smart personnel guy in the house and they call the shots.

 

It looks like they pretended when Scot was hired that they are running with #3 but we found out it was #2.  My fear is there is some smoke that they are willing to go back to #1 -- where they don't have that top flight personnel guy in the room and they don't care how it looks.  So #1 really scares me.  A neutered Scot type to me is better than no-Scot in the building.  But I agree in a normal well functioning organization, they hire a personnel guy and stay out of their way.

 

I am just fearful of this organization just being run exclusively with the current people calling the shots.  I have been unimpressed with how they have handled Scot PR wise both leading up to and after the firing.  I've not liked what I've read about Bruce as to the Kirk contract.  I've not loved what they've done so far in FA, don't hate it either, its just "meh" to me.   So taking this same staff and just reshuffling it to me is worse case scenario.  

 

Or on more basic terms if Bruce/Danny think the fan base doesn't care anymore whether they hire a real personnel guy who is highly regarded and they can go back to how they used to do business -- that scares me even more -- then them recognizing that its an issue even if they only care about it for purely PR reasons.  I am in the beggars can't be choosers mode -- mainly because of all the smoke of them elevating someone from within.  

[Peregrine]

Basically based on that article it smells like Snyder and Allen are just giving us a fake search.  You go around, offer good potential GMS a laughably small sum of money, and then you say "See, we tried".  I think its absolutely pathetic to offer the guy who SHOULD be the #1 most important person in your organization the amount a good NFL D or O coordinator would cost.  If we want to be one of the top 5 teams in the NFL, we should be going after top 5 GMs and Coaches, and paying our GMS and Coaches top 5 money.

[Conn]

4 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Basically based on that article it smells like Snyder and Allen are just giving us a fake search.  You go around, offer good potential GMS a laughably small sum of money, and then you say "See, we tried".  I think its absolutely pathetic to offer the guy who SHOULD be the #1 most important person in your organization the amount a good NFL D or O coordinator would cost.  If we want to be one of the top 5 teams in the NFL, we should be going after top 5 GMs and Coaches, and paying our GMS and Coaches top 5 money.

 

It has never made sense that with the money we're willing to burn on players, we don't also have the biggest scouting department in the NFL and the nicest facilities. But our scouting department is below average in size, ahead of maybe only the Bengals who are notoriously cheap and have a very centralized decision-making team, and our facilities are embarrassing. Or at least, they were until Scot got here and I believe some money finally went into all that, as its no longer really talked about.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Basically based on that article it smells like Snyder and Allen are just giving us a fake search.  You go around, offer good potential GMS a laughably small sum of money, and then you say "See, we tried".  I think its absolutely pathetic to offer the guy who SHOULD be the #1 most important person in your organization the amount a good NFL D or O coordinator would cost.  If we want to be one of the top 5 teams in the NFL, we should be going after top 5 GMs and Coaches, and paying our GMS and Coaches top 5 money.

 

The irony to that is LaCanfora talked in his interview about the Spurrier days where Spurrier was assured when he was hired that they will bring back Bobby Beathard to help him and run the show as GM.  And Beathard was willing to come back.  But Danny offered him an incredible low ball offer that Beathard wasn't going to take so it never transpired.

[RWJ]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree.  I am just coming with a deep level of desperation where I see three mostly likely scenarios

 

1.  Parading a GM that isn't regarding as anything special and not caring what people think of it.  

 

2.  Having a smart personnel guy in the house with Bruce overseeing that person and making the final call

 

3.  Having a smart personnel guy in the house and they call the shots.

 

It looks like they pretended when Scot was hired that they are running with #3 but we found out it was #2.  My fear is there is some smoke that they are willing to go back to #1 -- where they don't have that top flight personnel guy in the room and they don't care how it looks.  So #1 really scares me.  A neutered Scot type to me is better than no-Scot in the building.  But I agree in a normal well functioning organization, they hire a personnel guy and stay out of their way.

 

I am just fearful of this organization just being run exclusively with the current people calling the shots.  I have been unimpressed with how they have handled Scot PR wise both leading up to and after the firing.  I've not liked what I've read about Bruce as to the Kirk contract.  I've not loved what they've done so far in FA, don't hate it either, its just "meh" to me.   So taking this same staff and just reshuffling it to me is worse case scenario.  

 

Or on more basic terms if Bruce/Danny think the fan base doesn't care anymore whether they hire a real personnel guy who is highly regarded and they can go back to how they used to do business -- that scares me even more -- then them recognizing that its an issue even if they only care about it for purely PR reasons.  I am in the beggars can't be choosers mode -- mainly because of all the smoke of them elevating someone from within.  

 

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The irony to that is LaCanfora talked in his interview about the Spurrier days where Spurrier was assured when he was hired that they will bring back Bobby Beathard to help him and run the show as GM.  And Beathard was willing to come back.  But Danny offered him an incredible low ball offer that Beathard wasn't going to take so it never transpired.

Wow.  Dan pays 100 million for a player but low pay for a proven GM.  Strange ain't it, SIP.

[Est.1974]

44 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Basically based on that article it smells like Snyder and Allen are just giving us a fake search.  You go around, offer good potential GMS a laughably small sum of money, and then you say "See, we tried".

 

Seems to me like we are doing the same at QB.

[elkabong82]

Good ol' JLC. Can't write about the Skins without taking every negative assumption and slant possible. 

 

But let's dispell the cheap notion he's putting out. First, $1.5 million a year is in line with what GMs generally make, which is $1 - 3 million per year (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1638485-how-much-money-do-nfl-front-office-execs-make ). If the Skins offered huge money for the position, then the "Skins are so desparate" narrative would be pushed instead and we'd see people on here going along with that too because they're mad Scot got fired (yet inexplicably himself escapes any blame at all for his own actions).  

 

Heck, here's an article that justifies Keim of the Cardinals being the lowest paid GM, at $750k per year, simply because he hadn't been a GM before. http://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2013/1/16/3881760/arizona-cardinals-reportedly-make-steve-keim-lowest-paid-gm-in-the

 

That is what the Skins will be doing. Trying to find a guy wo has been on a good team that they can elevate to GM. So the intial money is going to be lower. Sure it may be easy to spin that offer as cheap because it's not near the max a GM makes. But in reality the offer is a good starting point for a first-time GM. 

 

But Skins are just going to hire a stooge, right guys? That's certainly the narrative being spun, just like it was when Gruden was hired. Was he another stooge? No. He wasn't. So maybe let's try to stop believing every negative slant put out there by the same people that tried to paint us as racists for supporting the team name. They want us to be bad, they want the FO to be the worst ever, and every thing they put out about us reeks of that desire. 

 

[TSO]

@elkabong82 Hope you're right, brother... but a few things: 

 

1) JLC has actually been writing favorably about the Skins the last couple months. He's been one of the few reporters continuously shooting down the craziness surrounding Kirk, specifically. He also wasn't part of the chorus regarding Scot the last month or so. 

 

2) He is no longer with the WP, so I'm not sure it's valid anymore to just lump him in with them because he worked for them long ago. 

 

3) He's been pretty credible in general with whatever he's reported about the team the past few years. Furthermore, he's citing league sources here. I doubt he does that if he has none.  

 

4) Maybe you're right about the money deal, but it's tough to just ignore the general theme of the article... that the best and the brightest don't see the Redskins as a place to come and thrive. That it's best to stay away so as to avoid the way the FO is setup with the Skins. It absolutely kills me to see him say that:

 

Quote

Sources said the team is dangling a salary in the $1.5 million-per-year range, which won’t blow anyone uber-qualified away. Several of Washington’s targets have already bailed out at the initial stage -- disinterested in even interviewing for the job -- because of concerns over how Snyder has run the team and the over-reaching powers of Bruce Allen, the team president.

 

The bolded there is just so frustrating to read... do you really think he's blatantly lying there? If so, I really do hope you're right. But it's tough to blame anyone for believing it at this point. It's not just "believing every negative slant". He didn't frame this as his opinion.

 

Hey... there's a simple solution, though. It's tied to the one positive that came out of this article in that they're "casting a wide net" and trying to get the best in here. And that's if they do. Just hire someone truly respectable and reputable, then none of this matters.