The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Destino]

5 minutes ago, twa said:

Not quite true,  just because you come here doesn't mean your whole family can.

"Choose us or your family" - Family Values America

 

5 minutes ago, twa said:

The notion If your parents bring you here illegally as a child(or as a a refugee) you are then entitled to bring your whole family seems off somehow.....but here we are.

Chain immigration is a legal means of immigration, I don't imagine many illegals are walking into immigration offices and arguing that their mere physical presence in the US grants their siblings the right to move here legally.  That's a quick way to end up in a private prisons  immigration detention facilities.  

 

This is is an effort to stop a legal form of immigrants.  One that's deeply embedded in American history.  

 

5 minutes ago, twa said:

Perhaps if we eliminate more tax exemptions for the blue states it will work.

Your heart wasn't in that one.  Get some sleep.  

[twa]

Just now, Destino said:

I don't imagine many illegals are walking into immigration offices and arguing that their mere physical presence in the US grants their siblings the right to move here legally.  That's a quick way to end up in a private prisons  immigration detention facilities.  

 

 

Can you say DACA?

I see it all the time, though honestly I prefer them over many Americans.

 

Prosit!

[Elessar78]

7 hours ago, Destino said:

The discussion of the wall makes little sense to me, but not because it's a useless idea.  The problem is that this debate isn't really about a wall.  I think the issue is that congress doesn't want to commit to the idea of securing the border.  Perhaps to Trump a wall matters, he did promise it to the crazies after all.  We've seen republican control before, and have it now, but they've never really decided to finally do it. 

 

If both houses of congress were certain that this is something they wanted to do, they'd approach it like any other massive security related project.  First they'd announce this new wondrous thing they're doing that will keep us all safe and swimming in freedom.  Then fight to get federal dollar spent in their states/districts.  Eventually the thing would cost a hell of a lot more than what was initially reported, but something would most likely get done.  It's not a perfect system, certainly not an efficient one, but its one that has largely kept the nation secure and our military powerful. 

 

Congress, for whatever reason, simply does not want to secure the southern border so we're arguing over a wall.  Again.  Maybe congress is hoping no one remembers the 2006 Secure Fence Act.  The one they passed, celebrated, and then quietly killed the following year.  

 

As for the general idea of Trump's great wall, a single enormous continuous wall makes no sense.  I like to think everyone agrees on that by now, but I'm sure some people are still holding out hope.  People are strange that way.  Erecting a barrier of some kind however, might be useful in spots or even long stretches.  Letting the experts decide which security measures are the most useful would probably be the best way to go about it.  

How else are we to keep the mongol hordes out?? Their trebuchets will never hurt our wall.

[Destino]

5 hours ago, twa said:

Can you say DACA?

Oh I have no doubt people that support ending chain migration will try to blame it on DACA.  It makes little sense but Dreamers have been used as bargaining chips to get legislation passed for longer than Trump has been president.  Why stop now?

 

 

[Larry]

Savoring the irony that the party of family values has made a conscious decision that the next thing they will rise up in feigned outrage over, is the notion that immigrants have families. 

[Fresh8686]

10 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

‘The Lowest White Man’

 

There is an interesting little quote in this article that goes like

 

"Trumpism is a religion founded on patriarchy and white supremacy. It is the belief that even the least qualified man is a better choice than the most qualified woman and a belief that the most vile, anti-intellectual, scandal-plagued simpleton of a white man is sufficient to follow in the presidential footsteps of the best educated, most eloquent, most affable black man."

Kind of pulls the curtain back on what some people are really saying when they spout that line of "still better then Hillary".

And then for the base

As President Lyndon B. Johnson said in the 1960s to a young Bill Moyers: “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”

It's easier to look down on others, than to put in the effort to raise yourself up. They get that emotional hit or charge, that pacifies the dissonance of not being where they want to be, while validating the lie or mask, their vanity pushes them to pretend to be. Like the validation of a "like" on facebook, rather then the internal validation of achieving or creating something through effort, even or especially if you're the only one who witnesses it. And if you supply people with that emotional hit, they will pay you for it, they will do things for you, that's both drug dealing and pimping 101.

Our world has way too large an amount of people making the cheaper choice, instead of the harder, deeper, richer choice. Our world or society as a living, breathing ecosystem can only sustain a certain degree of people making parasitical choices like that, before the balances tip and we fall into decline.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Fresh8686

[Larry]

Somebody, during the election, posted that "Trumpism is like Scientology, but with worse celebrities". 

[drowland]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

Somebody, during the election, posted that "Trumpism is like Scientology, but with worse celebrities". 

 

True, Scientology has Tom Cruise.  Trumpism has Scott Baio and the Duck Dynasty guy.  

[Fergasun]

GOP and Trump don't get it -- a DACA deal makes a lot of sense for them....but hey, many immigrants or former immigrants get citizenship and become voters.  Most of these people have experience with family members / immigration stuck in the stupid legal limbo simply because GOP doesn't want to deal and appear "soft on immigrants".  Crazy that our country you have to be "hard on immigrants" or something, like they are assumed to be criminals.....

 

Comprehensive immigration reform would be even better because we can stop the abuse of the system by businesses... *sigh*

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The corporate donors that fund Republicans (and Dems to a lesser degree) don't want reform, because they like cheap labor. Democrats don't want reform because immigrants from Mexico and Latin America (when they vote) overwhelmingly vote for Democrats. That's the cynical view of this.

 

Like everything else over the past year, "The Wall" is really just a referendum on Trump. It will do nothing, but it will make Trump voters believe that the Strongman has fulfilled his duty. So, Republicans are trapped between their base and their donors. And Dems are stuck because their base see any kind of deal with Trump as a sell-out to a would-be dictator.

 

I actually think there is some room for negotiation here in a reasonable world., but threading the needle in a way that keeps corporate interests, Latino activists, and Ann Coulter all happy is damn near impossible.

[Fergasun]

lkb,

Please explain what "immigrants vote for Democrats" impedes them to reform? It would seem that Dems want a deal -- if DACA can get legitimized, praise will go to Trump, but Obama is the one who gave them protection first.

 

DACA exists because comprehensive immigration failed during Bush's second term (2005)....

 

 

[Riggo-toni]

5 hours ago, Larry said:

Somebody, during the election, posted that "Trumpism is like Scientology, but with worse celebrities". 

I think that was Bill Maher.

[Larry]

On 1/12/2018 at 1:24 AM, visionary said:

 

 

There's something that I want to point out, about this attack on immigration by relatives.  

 

Note that they're attacking immigration by "family ties, not skill or merit".  

 

I'm pretty certain that what this means is that, when you have a situation in which two people want to immigrate:  

 

1)  Somebody who's wife/mother/aunt is a US Citizen

 

2)  Somebody who a US corporation wants to give a job to (instead of an American)

 

. . . then the current system favors #1, but we want the system to favor #2.  

 

In short, they want to increase the number of people who are coming here to take our jobs.  

 

 

[balki1867]

The comedy to the chain migration issue is that it was introduced in the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 as a way to bring in tons of white people to counter-balance the browns and maintain this country's racial make-up. The problem is that very few Europeans want to move here.

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by balki1867

[LD0506]

18 hours ago, balki1867 said:

The comedy to the chain migration issue is that it was introduced in the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 as a way to bring in tons of white people to counter-balance the browns and maintain this country's racial make-up. The problem is that very few Europeans want to move here.

 

 

^^This

 

It was done when the Iron Curtain/ Russians through the Fulda Gap business was a paramount fixation of national policy. Nice to see someone noting it in the context of current events. Once Europe stabilized economically the numbers cratered.

 

The overwhelming majority of immigrants are forced onto the road, it is actually difficult to make most people give up everything they know for a foreign land, a foreign tongue, a foreign culture looming over them and judging them as less.

 

If you look around there aren't swarms of people trying to slip in from Chile or Argentina, where they functional economies/societies, but you do see it from Central American countries that have been torn by wars, oppressive regimes supported by coffee and banana interests, narcowars that disrupt everything. People come here to simply live, live without the constant fear of being disappeared, for the opportunity to just eat, or sleep in peace, and to offer these things to their children. Personally I am not that surprised that someone would try to survive when forced to make the choice.

[LD0506]

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-42667659/the-missing-consequences-of-trump-s-immigration-crackdown

[No Excuses]

34 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-42667659/the-missing-consequences-of-trump-s-immigration-crackdown

 

This was heart breaking, especially because recently I have encountered something very similar.

 

During my undergrad and graduate school, I relied on a Latino migrant to do a lot of handy work for me. He helped me move from apartment to apartment several times, did plumbing and electrical work in my condo, and eventually he started helping my parents as well. 

 

He and his wife became good friends of ours. Just good, hard working people, who were raising a young daughter who I tutored sometimes. My mom would send her books and give them tips on how to further her education. She was shy, but bright and motivated to attend college.

 

I called him last week to help me install a new door. He replied that he would be over the next day. 

 

I have not heard from him since. His and his wife’s phone have gone silent and turned off. I’ve asked around and as best as I can tell, they’ve gone into hiding since someone close to them was detained by ICE recently.

 

I haven’t been able to sleep well for the past few days. We are a failing society when we punish good people, who are a net positive in our communities.

Edited January 15, 2018 by No Excuses

[LD0506]

And IMO the bigger impact is the Latino community suffering the stress of this emotional terrorism. The ones caught are bad enough, but for every one of them taken dozens disappear, go into hiding and keep moving to avoid capture, teaching their children that the government actually is some malignant entity out to get them.

 

This shames us all

[Zguy28]

41 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

This was heart breaking, especially because recently I have encountered something very similar.

 

During my undergrad and graduate school, I relied on a Latino migrant to do a lot of handy work for me. He helped me move from apartment to apartment several times, did plumbing and electrical work in my condo, and eventually he started helping my parents as well. 

 

He and his wife became good friends of ours. Just good, hard working people, who were raising a young daughter who I tutored sometimes. My mom would send her books and give them tips on how to further her education. She was shy, but bright and motivated to attend college.

 

I called him last week to help me install a new door. He replied that he would be over the next day. 

 

I have not heard from him since. His and his wife’s phone have gone silent and turned off. I’ve asked around and as best as I can tell, they’ve gone into hiding since someone close to them was detained by ICE recently.

 

I haven’t been able to sleep well for the past few days. We are a failing society when we punish good people, who are a net positive in our communities.

That's sad to hear. If he is in hiding, are you saying you were hiring an illegal immigrant? How do you respond though to the person who says "that's a job that a legal citizen could do"?

[LD0506]

Another article on the real world impact of driving Latinos out of the workforce

 

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/15/news/economy/ice-immigration-work-site-crackdown/index.html

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg, when spring arrives the ag sector is going to catch fire without workers to plant/tend/harvest crops and the loss of markets abroad due to the mindless stroking of a xenophobic "base". Vast amounts of exports that regularly flowed to and through Mexico- corn, wheat, beef, etc.- now won't, Mexico signed a trade deal w/ Argentina as a response to the whole insulting wall fantasy. Pig farmers that loaded up with debt in anticipation of Asian markets being opened w/ TPP now see those notes looming on the horizon and nowhere to sell their stock. Commodities futures are a bellwether for the ag sector and they are being propped up currently with hopeful wishing and delusional projections, but when spring rolls in and the blade hits the bone, farmers cannot and will not bet their farms and their families lives on hopeful projections.

 

 

[No Excuses]

21 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

That's sad to hear. If he is in hiding, are you saying you were hiring an illegal immigrant? How do you respond though to the person who says "that's a job that a legal citizen could do"?

 

“Are you legal” is a question I never thought of asking, nor would I ever ask unless the work explicitly required it. 

 

They are members of our community and I frankly don’t care what their immigration status is. 

 

I will compensate anyone fairly who is willing to do honest, good work. In fact, I don’t think I will ever find someone as reliable, who was skilled at so many things.

[bearrock]

So which chain immigration are we looking to end?

 

Immediate relatives are defined as the following relatives of us citizens: spouses, unmarried children under 21, adopted orphans, and parents (once us citizen is over 21). Which of these immigration should be stopped?

 

Before people say anchor babies with regards to parents, in order for illegal immigrants to be sponsored by a us citizen and get a green card without leaving the country, the parent must have entered the country through border inspection.  Anyone climbing over the wall doesn't count.

 

Why is this important?  Because if you didn't enter through inspection, you have to get your greencard in your home country's US consulate.  Which means you will trigger a 3 to 10 year ban on reentry unless you are granted an extreme hardship waiver (not easy).

 

The remaining categories (adult or married children of us citizens, spouse and children (minor or under 21 and unmarried) of permanent residents, siblings of us citizens) are numerically limited (combining to about 250k per year).  

 

So, which of these categories is creating such a problem?  I could buy an argument for the anchor babies issue, albeit a bit overblown (we could numerically limit, give temporary status until child is 18, or say for parent immediate relative, the parent must have legal status to adjust to green card).  I could also see lowering the threshold for children from 21 and unmarried to simple 18 (again, not a huge difference).  We could probably get rid of siblings, but the numbers are pretty low for that category and the backlog is to 2004, which means it's not much of an issue practically.

 

These are even with the assumption that immigration is bad (specifically family based even more so.  I personally don't agree, but it seems that GOP does).  What chain immigration are we looking to end?  

Edited January 15, 2018 by bearrock

[88Comrade2000]

28 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

These are even with the assumption that immigration is bad (specifically family based even more so.  I personally don't agree, but it seems that GOP does).  What chain immigration are we looking to end?  

My cousin's.

 

She and my late aunt came here in the mid 90's.  After she become a citizen, she applied for her brothers and sisters.  Her oldest brother came in 2008, along with two of her older sisters. Another brother came in 2009.  One sister didn't like it here and went back. The other sister eventually went back, though she could come anytime she wants.  A couple of others are married and don't have any interest in coming here. Another sister and brother are just waiting to get immigration.

 

 

That's what the GOP and their supporters want to stop.  Parents or young kids, some can reluctantly live with but everyone else they don't want.  Others don't want immigrants at all.  They want this to be a white nation only.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Rdskns2000

[twa]

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

 

“Are you legal” is a question I never thought of asking, nor would I ever ask unless the work explicitly required it. 

 

 

 

Seems reasonable, yet you seem sure he is gone into hiding.

Maybe he got a better job offer.

[redskins59]

53 minutes ago, bearrock said:

The remaining categories (adult or married children of us citizens, spouse and children (minor or under 21 and unmarried) of permanent residents, siblings of us citizens) are numerically limited (combining to about 250k per year).  

 

 

I know this for a fact.  My mom is sponsoring her brother for a green card.  The process has gone for 10 whopping years.  If this is what Trump means by chain migration, the process is not very easy at all. 

I have a feeling Trump (or his supporters) doesn't even know what chain migration means.

2 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

That's sad to hear. If he is in hiding, are you saying you were hiring an illegal immigrant? How do you respond though to the person who says "that's a job that a legal citizen could do"?

 

My response would be they are too expensive.  

And anyways, unless the plan is to discriminate, how do you know who is legal or illegal?  Am I supposed to ask for citizenship proof if a person looks brown or has an accent?