The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I usually try to avoid saying this but I kind of agree with TWA here.  Anyone else goes to jail (even just a holding cell) you can't bring your kids with you.  If you don't want it to happen to you don't break the law.  

Well, that's because your kid isn't also being held. Kind of a different situation.

 

They could keep the families together. They're doing it this way because they're monsters.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Well, that's because your kid isn't also being held. Kind of a different situation.

 

They could keep the families together. They're doing it this way because they're monsters.

Well in that case refer to my last sentence.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

17 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Well in that case refer to my last sentence.

Refer to my last sentence.

 

But really, that's a dick thing to say.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by visionary

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Refer to my last sentence.

 

But really, that's a dick thing to say.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

I have been on record as saying we need major immigration reform.  I have no problem with people coming here legally.  And I think there should be a much easier, better system for immigrants to come here.  However, just because someone doesn't like the laws or systems in place doesn't give them a pass to ignore them.  And if you are caught breaking the law, you are put in jail.  And you don't get to take your kids to jail with you. 

 

Want to fix the problem?  Fix the system.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Want to fix the problem?  Fix the system.

They don't want to fix the "problem". If they wanted to fix it, they would start fining the **** out of anyone who's caught employing illegal immigrants. Viola... no more jobs, no more reason for immigrants to come here illegally. Didn't have to spend a **** ton of money (maybe even made some) or build any walls (which aren't ever going to actually be built).

 

But I digress... 

 

7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

However, just because someone doesn't like the laws or systems in place doesn't give them a pass to ignore them.  And if you are caught breaking the law, you are put in jail.  And you don't get to take your kids to jail with you. 

Your first sentence is true but I'm not saying they get a pass. I'm saying that just because somebody breaks the law, you don't get to be unnecessarily cruel to them or to their children... also true. And yeah, "don't like it, don't break the law" is kind of a dick thing to say. Suppose that time you got arrested in Japan that, just for sport, the guards sent in a large veteran inmate former sumo wrestler named ****zilla "The Piston" Sodomoshi to rape the **** out of you and my callous response was, "Don't like it? Don't get arrested."

 

Kinda dickish, no?

 

Your point about not getting to take your kids to jail with you, as I said, is not apt. This is not the same situation. They're doing it just to torture these people.

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

45 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

They don't want to fix the "problem". If they wanted to fix it, they would start fining the **** out of anyone who's caught employing illegal immigrants. Viola... no more jobs, no more reason for immigrants to come here illegally. Didn't have to spend a **** ton of money (maybe even made some) or build any walls (which aren't ever going to actually be built).

 

But I digress... 

 

Your first sentence is true but I'm not saying they get a pass. I'm saying that just because somebody breaks the law, you don't get to be unnecessarily cruel to them or to their children... also true. And yeah, "don't like it, don't break the law" is kind of a dick thing to say. Suppose that time you got arrested in Japan that, just for sport, the guards sent in a large veteran inmate former sumo wrestler named ****zilla "The Piston" Sodomoshi to rape the **** out of you and my callous response was, "Don't like it? Don't get arrested."

 

Kinda dickish, no?

 

Your point about not getting to take your kids to jail with you, as I said, is not apt. This is not the same situation. They're doing it just to torture these people.

 

I agree no one actually wants to fix the problem.  Otherwise it would have happened by now.  And I agree that the proposed fixes by the Right are dumb along with, well, everything else the Right does.  Your analogy isn't really right though.  It is the same type of false comparison I would expect from someone like TWA.  I think you are better than to share that company.  No one is suggesting that these people be sexually assaulted.  No one is suggesting the kids be taken and never returned.  No one is suggesting that the parents or the children be put into some sort of dangerous situation that risks their lives.  It is finding another way to hopefully curtail a problem that we have without putting anyone in danger.  Hopefully, it will make someone think twice before attempting to come here illegally. 

[bearrock]

The problem is that asylum seekers crossing the border illegally and seeking asylum is something that is at least condoned by the law (in that asylum gives you a path to legal status).  And lot of these asylum seekers are presenting themselves to border patrol at the border.

 

So, to be accurate, they are not in jail.  They are being detained while their asylum application is being adjudicated.  Trump admin is threatening to keep them apart from their children during the detention to discourage them from making the application in the first place.

[LD0506]

Sacks, I don't mean to be a finger-wagger here but you might want to adjust your aim a tad. You can disagree w/ TGB without resorting to the snark. He's one of the few self-proclaimed righties that posts here, he tries to make his case regularly without being a vacuous ****bag like others, and we're all better off with some range of opinion. Everyone patting each other on the back inside a bubble is just another form of masturbation.

 

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand, or anyone's positions.

[TheGreatBuzz]

5 minutes ago, bearrock said:

The problem is that asylum seekers crossing the border illegally and seeking asylum is something that is at least condoned by the law (in that asylum gives you a path to legal status).  And lot of these asylum seekers are presenting themselves to border patrol at the border.

 

So, to be accurate, they are not in jail.  They are being detained while their asylum application is being adjudicated.  Trump admin is threatening to keep them apart from their children during the detention to discourage them from making the application in the first place.

Full disclosure:  I am not an expert in this field.  However, I have read up on it a bit and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

 

Now crossing the border illegally is not condoned.  It is still illegal.  It's just that you have to be physically in country to request asylum OR at an entry point.  So you could show up at the border and request asylum and not have done anything illegal.  You could also stay where you are currently and apply for refugee status.  From the bit I have read, most people who come here illegally don't actually qualify for asylum because they don't meet one of the 5 catergories.  "Where I live sucks and/or is dangerous" doesn't meet the standard.  It seems like many of the people coming here seeking asylum know that the system takes a while and are just hoping they can get in.  While I get their desire, that is not how the system is supposed to work and part of why it is so clogged up.  My understanding is also that many are not presenting themselves to border patrol AT the border but once OVER the border (so they can already be in country).  That makes their crossing illegal. 

 

As for the distinction of being detained vs in jail, you are correct but I have listed to BenningRoadSkin enough to know that most see the difference in the two as minimal. 

 

Here is a good resource I found.  http://www.immi-usa.com/how-to-seek-asylum-in-usa/

 

 

[bearrock]

39 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Full disclosure:  I am not an expert in this field.  However, I have read up on it a bit and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

 

Now crossing the border illegally is not condoned.  It is still illegal.  It's just that you have to be physically in country to request asylum OR at an entry point.  So you could show up at the border and request asylum and not have done anything illegal.  You could also stay where you are currently and apply for refugee status.  From the bit I have read, most people who come here illegally don't actually qualify for asylum because they don't meet one of the 5 catergories.  "Where I live sucks and/or is dangerous" doesn't meet the standard.  It seems like many of the people coming here seeking asylum know that the system takes a while and are just hoping they can get in.  While I get their desire, that is not how the system is supposed to work and part of why it is so clogged up.  My understanding is also that many are not presenting themselves to border patrol AT the border but once OVER the border (so they can already be in country).  That makes their crossing illegal. 

 

As for the distinction of being detained vs in jail, you are correct but I have listed to BenningRoadSkin enough to know that most see the difference in the two as minimal. 

 

Here is a good resource I found.  http://www.immi-usa.com/how-to-seek-asylum-in-usa/

 

 

 

You are right on all the points that you mentioned.  The subsequent asylum gives waiver to their illegal crossing, but yeah, it is nonetheless illegal.

 

I just think there are much better ways to fix the abuse of the asylum system then discouraging it by separating families during detention.  And time has long passed for Congress to comprehensively address these immigration abuses.  Then again, we could probably sit around and throw darts at the wall and come up with a better solution than Congress on most days.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

I agree (along with pretty much everyone I'm sure) that we need immigration reform.  I think it does need to be easier to come here legally.  Though I will say I also think it shouldn't be TOO easy.  Becoming a US citizen should be a privilege that you have to work hard for.

[bearrock]

35 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I agree (along with pretty much everyone I'm sure) that we need immigration reform.  I think it does need to be easier to come here legally.  Though I will say I also think it shouldn't be TOO easy.  Becoming a US citizen should be a privilege that you have to work hard for.

 

Yeah, I'd like to see a decoupling of permanent residency and citizenship.  Make getting work permit and permanent residency easier, making getting citizenship harder (combining length of residency, good citizenship req, and merit based points).  So if someone has a high score on length of residency and good citizenship they could overcome lower merit scores or with a really high merit score, they could overcome lower score on the length of residency, etc.)   

Edited December 24, 2017 by bearrock

[TheGreatBuzz]

Makes too much sense.  Which means it will never happen.

[tshile]

@TheGreatBuzz

I generally agree with you on immigration and the mindset that forms your opinion on this one, but I just do not see the value I not keeping the families together while their case is sorted out.

 

This isn't mom and son robbing a bank. They're more akin to refugees than serious criminals. 

 

The value of breaking them up vs the value of keeping them together, in the context of what's going on, just makes this a no-brainer to me.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I'm not super excited about what is being done.  The reason I am for it is not because I like doing cruel things to illegal immigrants.  But I do see this as something that could help deter illegal immigration which I think is needed.  And it is a lot more useful than a stupid wall. 

 

Maybe there should be some sort of express lane for judging these people.  Like a speedy review to determine if they even have a hint at an asylum case.  If it is determined they have no case, deport them and separate them until done.  If it looks like they might have a reasonable case, then work with them a bit more.  I just see this as a possible tool to help curtail illegals.  Make them think about if they actually have a case or are just wanting to abuse the system before they cross over.

[Burgold]

I wonder if we need to think about classes of illegal immigrants? I'm not sure that we should, but it's a thought that sometimes bubbles in my head.

Do we feel the same way about the wink, wink illegal immigrants that for decades we have invited across our borders to work our farms as we do other illegal immigrants?

 

Do we feel the same way about the illegal immigrant who is escaping despoticism and a death sentence and seeks sanctuary in the US as we do other illegal immigrants?

 

Do we feel the same way about the illegal immigrant who's running guns and drugs as we do about other illegal immigrants?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

4 hours ago, LD0506 said:

Sacks, I don't mean to be a finger-wagger here but you might want to adjust your aim a tad. You can disagree w/ TGB without resorting to the snark.

Noted. Full apology below.

 

Spoiler

I'm sorry that you suck.

 

Merry Christmas ****!!!

 

 

Just kidding. Sorry if I came off as snarky TGB.

[twa]

10 hours ago, tshile said:

@TheGreatBuzz

I generally agree with you on immigration and the mindset that forms your opinion on this one, but I just do not see the value I not keeping the families together while their case is sorted out.

 

This isn't mom and son robbing a bank. They're more akin to refugees than serious criminals. 

 

The value of breaking them up vs the value of keeping them together, in the context of what's going on, just makes this a no-brainer to me.

 

I think ya got some typos there.

 

But I agree not separating them is best, yet it is necessitated by stupid regulations and the past history of those not reporting back in for asylum hearings and such.

Our first priority should be protecting the country and providing for those in need(as imperfect as separation is)

 

Be nice if they would fix this mess(along with many others)

[visionary]

 

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[visionary]