The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

31 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

If TH is benched then there's only one way to go with it; Howell.

There is absolutely no way Howell plays this season unless it's in a meaningless week 18 game.  Ron and Turner have both said he is still working on the fundamentals of footwork.  There isn't a chance in hell they would put him out there in a playoff push. 

 

31 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

If they end up starting Wentz its gonna piss off alot of fans because everyone knows he's a statue in the backfield. He's lost any and all abilities to feel pressure, lost his ability to scramble and thats not a good recipe for an aggressive defense in SF.  Mobility, roll-outs and scrambling to extend plays are the only ways to do any damage, and Wentz just doesn't have it.

Yea he has a big arm but thats useless when he's flat on his back.

I honestly don't care about pissing off fans because most fans, and by most, I mean like 98%, have absolutely no idea what the hell they are looking at.  I got asked at least 10 times what the call on Terry McLaurin was all about.  Most fans don't even know you need an eligible receiver on the LOS covering the last ineligible receiver.  And that is one of the most basic rules in all of football. REALLY REALLY fans know anything, so if they get pissed off, I don't really give a damn about it.  

 

And Ron and company should NEVER make a decision based on what fans think.  They make the football decisions based on what they see in practice and by being around the guys.  What fans are going to do/say is irrelevant.  We know nothing.  

 

I do agree, I wouldn't put him in against SF if they fall behind with TH.  That's not fair to Wentz and it's not fair to the team.  If they're going to lose the game, they should just leave TH in to get the snot beat out of him for the entire game and then bench him going into the Cleveland game. 

 

And Wentz actually can do designed roll-outs and move around a little bit.  What he lacks is the quick-twitch pocket escapability.  But news-flash: TH doesn't have it either.  He's been sacked at a higher rate than Wentz recently, and he's fumbling on top of it.  

 

31 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Turner needs to stop falling behind in the game; he keeps force-feeding moronic jet sweeps which are not gonna fool SF one bit, and especially stop running all the time on 1st downs. Thats not setting up anyone for success and just puts the pressure on the QB.

Turner didn't have a good game last week in terms they should have gotten BRob more carries.  But Turner can't help that basically for his entire tenure here, he's been having to work around absolute awful QB play.  

 

And the jet sweeps have actually worked quite a bit.  They didn't in the last game as much, but it does have a purpose of keeping the defense honest.  The jet-sweep action forces the outside contain to stay outside and not crash inside, which is where BRob is running.  If you don't hand it off from time to time, defenses will ignore it and crash on the inside runs, which will make it harder to run on the inside. 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 My hope is somebody else pays him $20m for 2 years to be a bridge QB, and he takes it. 

I bet both TH and his agent have that same hope.

 

I feel like he needs to be a much better player tomorrow and moving forward to sniff that opportunity.

[illone]

I do have a hard time trusting Ron to develop Howell properly. 
 

He must really be sucking buttermilk in practice, I know there was initial concern about his footwork. 
 

That said, I’d be excited to see him in there at this point. Kinda have to figure out if the kid has anything. 
 

it’s definitely a very small window with this current roster. Cant really wait too long to develop a guy. This team is a QB and a few blockers away from having a chance to be great. 

[FLSkinz83]

If somehow that last game against Dallas is meaningless, I'd start Howell. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I bet both TH and his agent have that same hope.

 

I feel like he needs to be a much better player tomorrow and moving forward to sniff that opportunity.

I dunno.  Maybe.  
 

And maybe it’s more like 15 for 2. Mitch got something like that and he was a freaking backup.  
 

I think somebody is going to pay him.  I just hope to hell it’s not us.  

8 minutes ago, illone said:

I do have a hard time trusting Ron to develop Howell properly. 
 

He must really be sucking buttermilk in practice, I know there was initial concern about his footwork. 
 

That said, I’d be excited to see him in there at this point. Kinda have to figure out if the kid has anything. 
 

it’s definitely a very small window with this current roster. Cant really wait too long to develop a guy. This team is a QB and a few blockers away from having a chance to be great. 

He developed Newton. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I dunno.  Maybe.  
 

And maybe it’s more like 15 for 2. Mitch got something like that and he was a freaking backup.  
 

I think somebody is going to pay him.  I just hope to hell it’s not us.

Trubisky though has first round physical traits and the benefit of being a backup behind Josh Allen, not having to play, and some lip service from the brass in Buffalo.  
 

PFF and QBR aren’t the end all be all, but Heinicke’s ratings are also trailing Trubisky, even in his last season in Chicago where he got bounced.

 

The only thing Taylor has going for him is his overall record and his end of game moxie moments.  

[dyst]

19 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

If somehow that last game against Dallas is meaningless, I'd start Howell. 

Can’t disagree there. Rivera honestly should have started him a long time ago. We did this with Haskins too. When you are a bad team, you need to find out of the players you have, can actually play.

[illone]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He developed Newton. 

True, he did. 
 

 

[kingdaddy]

2 minutes ago, dyst said:

Can’t disagree there. Rivera honestly should have started him a long time ago. We did this with Haskins too. When you are a bad team, you need to find out of the players you have, can actually play.

We're not a bad team...we're like most NFL teams, flawed but capable. Hell, we beat the Eagles in Philly on national tv and manhandled them. And hopefully the coaches are finding out about Howell in practice, film sessions and other ways. 

[NoCalMike]

On 12/22/2022 at 1:08 PM, skinny21 said:

I hear you SIP, especially on that last point.  It’s a line I’ve struggled with for sure - defending certain aspects, while trying to make it clear I’m not in the tank for the guy.  I’ve done it for other players and coaches too, it’s just my nature to look for extenuating circumstances and withholding judgement accordingly.  With this team, it seems to rarely pay off though, lol.  Del Rio and Jamin Davis are the only two recent ones I can come up with.

IMO, hyperbole makes it tougher to have a rational conversation/debate, so I disagree that it’s “picking nits”.

 

As for the blame, from my standpoint there’s a group that goes out of their way to blame aspects other than Heinicke, a group that doesn’t lend much import to those aspects, and then a group that lives in the gray area - assigning blame both directions (even if it understandably skews more one way).

Absolutely.  I’ve felt Heinicke has been the best option, but as we get to the end, it seems like the team needs a spark.  I’m not optimistic that Wentz (or Howell) can provide it, particularly behind this oline, but I think it’s worth trying.  To be clear, I think Heinicke is generally still playing at the same level, so there’s hope we can still eek out wins with him, but his poor play in the red zone, the struggles on 3rd down, and the lack of pass pro put a definitive ceiling on things.

 

Oh for sure. I am ready to move on from Heinicke because I feel like his ability ceiling is not good enough for the last stretch of games.  To be fair, the 49ers game is a mountain of a task regardless of the QB so I would assume a 7-7-1 record regardless of QB.

 

My fear is that because Heinicke has such a low ceiling, this is the time of the season it is going to be the most glaring and there isn't any film studying that is going to change it.   Would the team still lose these games with Wentz and perhaps Howell? Sure, I can easily see it, but Heinicke isn't the best QB on the roster right now and his supposed attributes that are supposed to be making him the best QB for the situation have also evaporated slowly over the past month of games. 

[rumplestilskin]

27 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

We're not a bad team...we're like most NFL teams, flawed but capable. Hell, we beat the Eagles in Philly on national tv and manhandled them. And hopefully the coaches are finding out about Howell in practice, film sessions and other ways. 

I agree. I believe what is lost in all of this is that coaches are in the business to win games. We are mearly fans who wont lose their job if player X or Z works out or not. We also dont see the dudes in practice on a day in and day out basis.  You would hope that the coaching staff would play the players that would give team the best chance for winning games because if they dont the termination is coming soon. Ron sticking with Hieny tells me he is the best of what we got from a coaches confidence perspective. If it is anyone else then the season is over and they are in evaluation mode. Our pot of QBs is weak at best and it is what it is. We have our backup as the starter and the starter is a castaway after injury so thats never good situation. FWIW the scenario does tell us about Howells readiness. If Howell isnt ready and Ron just throws him out for ****s and giggles it can derail his carreer long term. That is malpractice and unfair to Howell. 

[NeverSurrender]

8 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

Agreed, with an addition: you should practice what you're supporting.🤔😁

This should be directed at the people that continue to say the exact same things about TH and cant really say much else.  I haven't been redundant in my analysis but your clearly in love with certain posters here.  

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But he didn't go in the first round, he went in the fifth for a reason.  After he was fully scouted, he ended up as a 5th round pick.  At last check, Ron and Scott said he was still working on footwork and tying footwork to his drops and routes.  Translation: he isn't ready.

 

Translation you have no idea if he is ready no more than I do that he is. But at least I like to believe he will be for the 23 season. By the way, neither did Hurts, Prescott, Cousins, or Brady were selected in the 1st round. Also this draft was loaded with other position players and the anemic QB class was not something to give up another player for. Not all players scouted play at the draft position they were selected anyway. How many teams passed on Diggs? So yeah it can go both ways 

 

Quote

Regardless, there is absolutely no way they can go into next season with Howell as the primary option having not played at all this year.

 

Did Mahomes play his rookie year? Yes. But only one game. 

 

Quote

  With any luck, TH will be on another team and won't be an option.   My hope is somebody else pays him $20m for 2 years to be a bridge QB, and he takes it.  Whichever team does that will regret it after the first OTA practice, but that's not really my problem.  As long as he's not here, I don't care where he is.

Personally, and I think everybody is going to freak out about this, but I think the absolute most likely scenario is they bring back Wentz on a re-structured deal, and then explore Carr also.  With the idea that Wentz would be the bridge guy if they couldn't find somebody better. 

 

The reason is simple: they couldn't get their top prospects to come here last season.  What's to think they would this off-season?  They need at least Wentz as a floor.  

 

What happens to TH beyond this year is his destiny. I wish him all the best. 

 

I have said the before it is possible Wentz was brought in for more than 1 year. The 1st year begin a tryout with the option to dump. By holding Wentz back a bit this year they can offer him to come back at a reduced cost and Wentz would want to do that since he will be in his second year in same offense and not start all over again with probably no better than what he did here in an new offense.  

 

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I think they're going to go hard after OL help in the off-season as well.  Most likely Dan isn't the owner.  That should help Ron get higher-level talent to come here.  If the floor is Wentz in the second year of the system with a better OL.  

 

OL is a top priority and now they know they can't neglected it like they did this year. 

 

Quote

TH is dreadful, and they can't plan for him to be part of the mix.  He needs to be on another roster ASAP.  

 

He originally called Turner for some sort of a coaching gig. They could keep him in some sort of assistant role instead. But to be honest beyond this year it really doesn't matter to me. I want our own rookie franchise guy instead like other teams have and been able to build around them instead. I really want Howell to be that guy. 

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Personally, and I think everybody is going to freak out about this, but I think the absolute most likely scenario is they bring back Wentz on a re-structured deal, and then explore Carr also.  With the idea that Wentz would be the bridge guy if they couldn't find somebody better. 

 

The reason is simple: they couldn't get their top prospects to come here last season.  What's to think they would this off-season?  They need at least Wentz as a floor.  

 

I think they're going to go hard after OL help in the off-season as well.  Most likely Dan isn't the owner.  That should help Ron get higher-level talent to come here.  If the floor is Wentz in the second year of the system with a better OL.  

 

TH is dreadful, and they can't plan for him to be part of the mix.  He needs to be on another roster ASAP.  

 

 

'Bout where I am. Helps a ton that you can re-do Wentz way b4 the offseason so you have a baseline in place and your not doing the "I have absolutely no QB" scramble that would otherwise dominate anything you do. Plus, a cheap Wentz does not prevent other QB moves so you can still go after other guys, like as you said, Carr.

[stoshuaj]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Did Mahomes play his rookie year? Yes. But only one game. 

 

Howell/Mahomes aren’t comparable.  You lose credibility when you attempt to force feed silly comparisons

Edited December 24, 2022 by stoshuaj

[dyst]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

We're not a bad team...we're like most NFL teams, flawed but capable. Hell, we beat the Eagles in Philly on national tv and manhandled them. And hopefully the coaches are finding out about Howell in practice, film sessions and other ways. 

For me, when you mostly don’t make the playoffs and when you do, you luck or back into it, I tend to consider that a bad team. 

[Jumbo]

46 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

This should be directed at the people that continue to say the exact same things about TH and cant really say much else.  I haven't been redundant in my analysis but your clearly in love with certain posters here.  

 

 Oh there's a way it applies, though not directly.  

 

Shocker, but i knew what i was doing when i posted it and your response supports the choice. Polar Expresses post was about his noticing his redundancy and decided it was something he wanted to limit, and that shows critical self-awareness and putting it into play. My comment was based on some of your posting lately and recent rule violations. You got a lot of attitude lately and i was referring to the larger matter of self awareness and willingness to to be more self critical and even modify the behavior like polar express.  

 

And you know what, I know it may be shocking to a small enough mind that someone on a message board has favorite posters (gasp) and much less favored posters (OMG!!), but i will confess I am one of that rare breed. I will even let you know what I'm positively biased towards: informed, knowledgeable, accurate, analytically sound, funny, nice, emotionally stable, and ther's more.

 

Your closing remark was just you being a dumbass, and dumbassery is something I'm biased against.

 

now, back to football  

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

TH is dreadful, and they can't plan for him to be part of the mix.  He needs to be on another roster ASAP.  

TH has proven to be durable, serviceable and a team favorite among his teammates. He has been the QB by default the past 3 Decembers. We are lucky to have him and this season is still not finished. This guy has balled out for us and it's not his fault the organization missed on Fitz, Wentz, Haskins, Alex and whoever else. He keeps being needed.

If Terry McClaurin speaks highly of TH and demands that he be the starter like he did after the Philly win then that's good enough for me. He's not dreadful by any stretch...if you want to see dreadful then watch the NY Jets QB's....TH has beaten Brady, Carr, Russ Wilson, Hurts, Ryan and others.....that is far from dreadful. 

Wentz's injury was a blessing this year, it has us all holding out hope for a playoff run because TH came in and took us on a run, whether you give him any credit or not. The team believes in him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

TH has proven to be durable, serviceable and a team favorite among his teammates. He has been the QB by default the past 3 Decembers. We are lucky to have him and this season is still not finished. This guy has balled out for us and it's not his fault the organization missed on Fitz, Wentz, Haskins, Alex and whoever else. He keeps being needed.

If Terry McClaurin speaks highly of TH and demands that he be the starter like he did after the Philly win then that's good enough for me. He's not dreadful by any stretch...if you want to see dreadful then watch the NY Jets QB's....TH has beaten Brady, Carr, Russ Wilson, Hurts, Ryan and others.....that is far from dreadful. 

Wentz's injury was a blessing this year, it has us all holding out hope for a playoff run because TH came in and took us on a run, whether you give him any credit or not. The team believes in him.

He is dreadfully.  He hasn’t beaten anybody. McLaurin, Gibson and the defense have more to do with any win that TH has played.  
 

I’ll give him this: his best trait is he is inexplicably lucky.  I have no idea why.  Maybe he makes ritual sacrifices to the football gods.  No idea.  But refs run into defenders for him and  defenders drop interceptions. 
 

His moxie is named Terry McLaurin.  His moxie is chucking it in Terry’s direction on a wing and a prayer and Terry bails his ass out.  
 

He is awful.  Absolutely horrendous.  Dreadful.  He is insulting to the art of QB play.  
 

In the last game alone, he failed to hit a wide open TD ball to Samuel, fumbled twice, missed a bunch more receivers and was absolutely 100% the biggest reason they lost last week.

 

The Jets QBs could do just as well if not much better in a game plan which is “run the ball and pray we only need 120 yards passing.”  In the majority of TH’s wins, he is asked to throw 22-28 times, not make mistakes.  Hell, he’s even dreadful at the thing they need him to be good at, picking up 3rd downs.  

 

Horrendous.  Dreadful.  Awful.  Terrible.  Miserable.  Insert link to thesaurus for “terrible” here.  He is all of those things and worse.  
 

I hope to God some other GM is blind and believes he has any talent and signs him to a 2 year, $15m bridge QB contract.  Maybe in Arizona.  That would be a great spot for him.  

[zCommander]

28 minutes ago, stoshuaj said:

Howell/Mahomes aren’t comparable.  You lose credibility when you attempt to force feed silly comparisons

 

The point was it is okay to sit for a year and not see a rook get on the field. It was not a comparison of their abilities. That was silly of you to think otherwise. 

[88Comrade2000]

Anyone giving high picks for Love should be fired. If Love has any real potential, he’d be starting now and Aaron would be elsewhere or retired.

 

We are in a playoff push, Ron benches Taylor then he’s going with the veteran Carson over rookie Sam.

 

If Ron wants to be here long term, then 23 will be him auditioning for the job to the new owner. So, Ron will go the veteran route again. A playoff victory in 23 is probably the minimum requirement to convince the new owner not to make a coaching change. Only way Sam sees anything other than mop up duty next year ; if he somehow wins the job outright in training camp over Ron’s veteran choice. I don’t see Sam beating out another veteran. Sam would have to do what Russell Wilson did in his rookie year, leaving coaches with a clear choice that he must be the starter.

 

 

My guess our 23 starter is Jimmy or David Carr. David likely to be released. Tom Brady could spend his final year as Raiders QB. 
 

 

That long term QB is 24. Everything points to 2024, even if Ron is head coach. The new owner will likely change the front office first and tell Ron he only wants him to coach. 2024 seems like when we make a move.

[illone]

If we wait until 2024… how exactly will we be in position to get Caleb Williams?

 

😂😂

 

 

[Skinsfan1311]

10 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

  dumbassery is something I'm biased against.

 

now, back to football  

Trademark that statement.   

That would be cool on coffee and beer mugs.

To keep it OT....I've seen enough. TH has reached his ceiling.   Wentz can hand the ball off and roll-out too, with the added benefit that he's got the arm to make those throws across the field during the aforementioned roll-out.

Restructure his contract for next year.   Look for a vet.    Address the O-line.

Merry Christmas! 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Skinsfan1311

[GoDeep81]

15 hours ago, KDawg said:

I just have this feeling that we’re going to have Anthony Richardson on this team somehow. Unless they get Howell in and he’s ultra impressive. 

I've watched every down from AR. That could turn out really good or really bad. I just hope if we get him, he was actually saving it for the NFL. Cause w/o his legs he's a liability. And he seemed to shy away from the run this year. And most times he did run and get hit, he gets up limping. 🥴  Nobody will complain about his arm strength though. 

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, GoDeep81 said:

I've watched every down from AR. That could turn out really good or really bad. I just hope if we get him, he was actually saving it for the NFL. Cause w/o his legs he's a liability. And he seemed to shy away from the run this year. And most times he did run and get hit, he gets up limping. 🥴  Nobody will complain about his arm strength though. 

I’m in agreement. He’d need to be developed over time but while on the field. I’d utilize a Josh Allen model for him. But he’s not a guy who could sit if we got him. He has to play. Can’t hide behind the BS footwork excuses while trotting Heinicke out there.