The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

52 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

He’s played poorly (for the most part), not sure why you’re acting like I’m avoiding saying that?

Pretty much.  The difference seems to be that I’m trying to avoid the hyperbole, and I’m willing to place some blame in other places as well - such as - in this game - Terry’s penalty, some of Turner’s play calling, and poor pass pro (and even the refs at times).

 

He deserves plenty of blame, without a doubt.  As I’ve said repeatedly though, when I do defend TH, it’s not from people that say he’s a bad qb, it’s from comments that are (IMO) overly harsh, or lack context… like saying he “gave” the other team 7 points when he was blindsided.  Or saying he plays badly for 58 minutes (we all see the problem with that statement… right?).

 

 

I haven't really engaged in this debate as much as some but I have done it more intensely lately.  The reason for it is I am dissapointed in the offense and yes I put that more on Taylor than anyone else for basically having lemon games against the Giants with the playoffs on the line.  So for me the gloves are off more than the past. 

 

But I'll say as someone who has read a lot of the debate here.  The ones who defend Taylor for the most part aren't saying yeah he stinks but you guys say he stinks at everything -- he doesn't.  The defense of Taylor has been much more intense and positive than that.

 

I think we can all agree, that any player who sucks doesn't suck every play and every minute.  I don't think that's the debate here.  But reading this thread over time, like i said the other day the Heinicke stuff is weird compared to other debates.  My best analogy is its people complementing the food -- at times defending the food but then when cornered saying yeah I said that about the food but that doesn't mean I like the restaurant.

 

Anybody that posts over and over again to defend any player, I gather cares to defend said player, they are passionate about doing it for whatever reason.  If lets say someone posts a thread about why lets say C. Lucas is overrated as a backup tackle, I wouldn't post in that thread over and over again to defend Lucas because I wouldn't care.  If I went on that thread and repeartedly defended him from the criticism, people would assume i am fairly passionate about the player.  Oppose of love is indifference.  

 

My point is its hard to come out with an impression when someone defends a players play repeatedly they don't dig the player and they are just making the point that the critcism is just a bit over the top.  The repeated posting alone showcases the caring.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

3 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

You're purpose here is to put lipstick on him as subtly as you can and working to seem somewhat balanced so you can keep doing your shtick. 

 

You've already had two rule violations from two mods since you joined last February and you trying hard to camouflage when necessary so you can continue this role.

 

It's been your m.o. since you arrived. 

 

I was defending Wentz in a very similar way. 

[zCommander]

43 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I hear what you're saying, but......it was 3rd down with 6 minutes left in the 4th and We're down 5.   If it was 1st or 2nd down, if it was earlier in the game, if it was a 3 point game or less; then I would put more blame on him.   I'm not absolving him of any blame.  He needed to do better to protect the ball, but I understand him trying to make a play in that situation and it all started with Trai Turner getting beat up the middle.

 

Then you live to play the 4th down instead but turning the ball over was not an option. I would have preferred BRob here instead with a 4 downs terrority mentality but that is another conversation to be had. 

[Jumbo]

4 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I was defending Wentz in a very similar way. 

 

No you weren't, not even close to the level of effort and volume. And much of your posting has read quite disingenuous and your dissembling is a constant feature.

 

I'm hardly the only intelligent football savvy board veteran to smell you. You joined out of your interest in th and that's your deal.

 

Your method of delivering that product is soaked in a lack of honesty, not stupidity like it is with some genuinely so defensive of heinie they routinely lose their bearings.

 

The result is you're basically a form of troll imv. I'm not banning you for it. At least not at this point. Others, like KDawg, can decide whether you're worth responding to or not.

 

But if I decide you've brought enough of that level of bs to the board with zero long term history of being a contributor of solid content than I'll act.

 

Maybe try posting more on other topics like you're actually interested in the team as a whole, including maybe referring to it's history in appropriate topics, rather than spending 90 percent of your time circling around th stuff like a fly buzzing over the food at a picnic. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NewCliche21]

19 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I think he's hit his ceiling in the current situation.  But I don't think going to Wentz or Howell will make things better currently. 

 

I disagree, but I see where you're coming from.

[NickyJ]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think we can all agree, that any player who sucks doesn't suck every play and every minute. 

Counter point: William Jackson III.

[Skinsinparadise]

Being short doesn't help in the red zone clearly. 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-commanders/post/_/id/42727/were-in-a-very-precarious-situation-commanders-enter-crucial-stretch-with-little-margin-for-error

Heinicke’s vision can be obstructed in this area too. That happened three weeks ago in New York when his line of sight was blocked by the linemen, preventing him from seeing an open Jahan Dotson in the back of the end zone.

“In the red zone you want to see them open so you don’t throw blindly,” he said.

Rivera said he wants Heinicke to make his reads faster.

“When the space is condensed, you've got to get through it quickly,” Rivera said. “A couple times he's kind of waited a little bit to try and give the guy an opportunity to get to the window or to another window and then go to another guy ... we've got to keep that clock in his head going.”

If the Commanders continue to struggle in the red zone, it could trigger the return of quarterback Carson Wentz. Heinicke will start against San Francisco, but with Wentz finally back from a broken right ring finger, Rivera could turn to him, hoping he could provide an answer.

[Skinsinparadise]

Good summary of my take

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Pretty much.  The difference seems to be that I’m trying to avoid the hyperbole, and I’m willing to place some blame in other places as well - such as - in this game - Terry’s penalty, some of Turner’s play calling, and poor pass pro (and even the refs at times).

 

He deserves plenty of blame, without a doubt.  As I’ve said repeatedly though, when I do defend TH, it’s not from people that say he’s a bad qb, it’s from comments that are (IMO) overly harsh, or lack context… like saying he “gave” the other team 7 points when he was blindsided.  Or saying he plays badly for 58 minutes (we all see the problem with that statement… right?).

There is not a football game that takes place where only the QB is to blame though.  Of course a certain playcall could be better, or a lineman should have made a block, etc. 

 

Of course saying he stinks for 58 minutes is hyperbole, but does it make a difference if I say he stinks for the majority of time he’s playing instead?  This is picking nits to me.

 

 

 

[NoCalMike]

There's a difference between saying Heinicke has been good vs due to the circumstances I believe Heinicke is still the best option.

[Warhead36]

Its hard to rebuild an entire OL in one off season. Plus we need more depth at CB including a real #1, and a quality starting TE.

 

Oh and yeah. A freaking QB.

[bowhunter]

It appears that Thibodeaux is the next coming of LT, and besides "Moxie" one of THs greatest attributes seems to be his football smarts. However, somebody had to make the line protection call on the game determining Sack Fumble TD.  Thib went largely unblocked and bad things happened.

 

Although I don't think I would have qualified as a "Hiver," there were a lot of things I enjoyed watching TH play.  Now that the things I dont enjoy>>the things I do, I'm ready for Howell. Wentz should not be the future and neither is TH as a starter. @KDawggot me excited for Sam before the draft and it's time to open that chapter.

[method man]

45 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Its hard to rebuild an entire OL in one off season. Plus we need more depth at CB including a real #1, and a quality starting TE.

 

Oh and yeah. A freaking QB.

BSJ is in year 2. I am betting he takes a big step up next year and becomes a legit #1 corner. They do need another good young depth piece who can replace Fuller in 2024

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Its hard to rebuild an entire OL in one off season. Plus we need more depth at CB including a real #1, and a quality starting TE.

 

Oh and yeah. A freaking QB.

 

And I know some here think we need a whole new line, to each their own but I seriously doubt that's what the team is thinking.

 

For me its 2-3 O lineman.  I know people have been upset during the game at every O lineman but I don't think they all stink.   Cosmi is developing.  They are high on Paul.  I can live with either Leno, Turner, or Norwell at one of the spots but not all three.  Every team isn't stacked at every spot especially O line. 

 

As far as freaking QB.  I just think we need average.  That alone would prop the team versus having the worst starter in the league arguably.

 

I was listening to a SF reporter today who has looked at this roster and watched some of our games and he's impressed with the roster.  He thinks they are on the SF track but just a year maybe 2 tops behind.  He thinks SF edge is LB and CB on defense.  He thinks they both need to fix their interior O line.  He didn't say it but obviously TE.

 

Heck listening to Logan Paulsen he thinks part of our O line issues, at least he said so versus the Giants, is that the team (QB-C) is piss poor at setting protections.  So a new QB might help in that context. 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Heck listening to Logan Paulsen he thinks part of our O line issues, at least he said so versus the Giants, is that the team (QB-C) is piss poor at setting protections.  So a new QB might help in that context. 

 

This is where the injuries at Center has probably hurt the most. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

This is where the injuries at Center has probably hurt the most. 

 

Probably.   He put it some on Heinicke too.  I know the center sets protections in this scheme and Paulsen knows that but he seem to suggest Heinicke should kick in -- implying that veteran Qbs typically do. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Probably.   He put it some on Heinicke too.  I know the center sets protections in this scheme and Paulsen knows that but he seem to suggest Heinicke should kick in -- implying that veteran Qbs typically do. 

 

I think this was implied on the Thibodeaux sack in OT a few weeks ago.  

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I haven't really engaged in this debate as much as some but I have done it more intensely lately.  The reason for it is I am dissapointed in the offense and yes I put that more on Taylor than anyone else for basically having lemon games against the Giants with the playoffs on the line.  So for me the gloves are off more than the past. 

 

But I'll say as someone who has read a lot of the debate here.  The ones who defend Taylor for the most part aren't saying yeah he stinks but you guys say he stinks at everything -- he doesn't.  The defense of Taylor has been much more intense and positive than that.

 

I think we can all agree, that any player who sucks doesn't suck every play and every minute.  I don't think that's the debate here.  But reading this thread over time, like i said the other day the Heinicke stuff is weird compared to other debates.  My best analogy is its people complementing the food -- at times defending the food but then when cornered saying yeah I said that about the food but that doesn't mean I like the restaurant.

 

Anybody that posts over and over again to defend any player, I gather cares to defend said player, they are passionate about doing it for whatever reason.  If lets say someone posts a thread about why lets say C. Lucas is overrated as a backup tackle, I wouldn't post in that thread over and over again to defend Lucas because I wouldn't care.  If I went on that thread and repeartedly defended him from the criticism, people would assume i am fairly passionate about the player.  Oppose of love is indifference.  

 

My point is its hard to come out with an impression when someone defends a players play repeatedly they don't dig the player and they are just making the point that the critcism is just a bit over the top.  The repeated posting alone showcases the caring.

I hear you SIP, especially on that last point.  It’s a line I’ve struggled with for sure - defending certain aspects, while trying to make it clear I’m not in the tank for the guy.  I’ve done it for other players and coaches too, it’s just my nature to look for extenuating circumstances and withholding judgement accordingly.  With this team, it seems to rarely pay off though, lol.  Del Rio and Jamin Davis are the only two recent ones I can come up with.

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There is not a football game that takes place where only the QB is to blame though.  Of course a certain playcall could be better, or a lineman should have made a block, etc. 

 

Of course saying he stinks for 58 minutes is hyperbole, but does it make a difference if I say he stinks for the majority of time he’s playing instead?  This is picking nits to me.

 

 

 

IMO, hyperbole makes it tougher to have a rational conversation/debate, so I disagree that it’s “picking nits”.

 

As for the blame, from my standpoint there’s a group that goes out of their way to blame aspects other than Heinicke, a group that doesn’t lend much import to those aspects, and then a group that lives in the gray area - assigning blame both directions (even if it understandably skews more one way).

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

There's a difference between saying Heinicke has been good vs due to the circumstances I believe Heinicke is still the best option.

Absolutely.  I’ve felt Heinicke has been the best option, but as we get to the end, it seems like the team needs a spark.  I’m not optimistic that Wentz (or Howell) can provide it, particularly behind this oline, but I think it’s worth trying.  To be clear, I think Heinicke is generally still playing at the same level, so there’s hope we can still eek out wins with him, but his poor play in the red zone, the struggles on 3rd down, and the lack of pass pro put a definitive ceiling on things.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I think this was implied on the Thibodeaux sack in OT a few weeks ago.  

Looking ahead. I think the fact that Jay Gruden and Cooley made the same observation about them struggling with setting protections got my attention.

 

Feels like a smart center and or a savvy QB would help this O line.

 

I recall watching an NFL films segment years back focused on Andrew Luck and his preparation for a game. Luck shared that he spends more prep time for protections than anything else. 

[FLSkinz83]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Feels like a smart center and or a savvy QB would help this O line.

 

Curious what they do with Roullier.  I'd bring him back if he took a pay cut.  

[Conn]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Looking ahead. I think the fact that Jay Gruden and Cooley made the same observation about them struggling with setting protections got my attention.

 

Feels like a smart center and or a savvy QB would help this O line.

 

I recall watching an NFL films segment years back focused on Andrew Luck and his preparation for a game. Luck shared that he spends more prep time for protections than anything else. 

Makes sense since he was being clobbered every week for years, he needed to do more than your average QB to try to compensate I’m guessing 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

29 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

IMO, hyperbole makes it tougher to have a rational conversation/debate, so I disagree that it’s “picking nits”.

 

As for the blame, from my standpoint there’s a group that goes out of their way to blame aspects other than Heinicke, a group that doesn’t lend much import to those aspects, and then a group that lives in the gray area - assigning blame both directions (even if it understandably skews more one way).

At the end of the day, he has the ball in his hands on every offensive snap.  Our offense stinks even when we win.  By every possible metric of which to assess individual play at the position he ranks near the bottom.  
 

That doesn’t mean that he never makes a play.  He actually makes really awesome plays that are uncharacteristic of a player of his caliber and talent level almost every week.  Overall though, he’s bad and all the data confirms that.  

[FootballZombie]

When people say someone sucks for going 2-15 from the three point line, that does not take away the fact that they made two 3 pointers.

 

Its just an understanding that the overall sum of the parts in regards to the shooting was terrible.

 

 

That does not need to be qualified w/ "Oh, he looked good on those two shots!"

Its just understood that he sucked.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

When people say someone sucks for going 2-15 from the three point line, that does not take away the fact that they made two 3 pointers.

 

Its just an understanding that the overall sum of the parts in regards to the shooting was terrible.

 

 

That does not need to be qualified w/ "Oh, he looked good on those two shots!"

Its just understood that he sucked.

This is true, but what’s unique about Heinicke is the few times he does make a big play like the 4th down throw to Samuel - it’s actually an elite level play, that you just wonder where the hell it came from, particularly at the time he absolutely had to make it.

Edited December 22, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[BigDibbs31]

I know little to nothing about setting protections but is it on the QB to tell the LT to block an elite edge rusher who is obviously rushing? To me, it is mostly obvious who needs to block who and when they look to be sending 5 or more guys then the C/QB ensures everyone is covered.