The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[petey hodge]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

As of this moment our offense is stagnant. I’d rather say, “we tried Howell… it didn’t work” and enter 2023 knowing where we are than keep him hidden on the bench behind two guys who have failed in their roles.

 

Heinicke, at least, provided a spark for a bit and got some wins under the team’s belt. But playing a guy just because it’s safer is a loser mentality. It’s playing not to lose instead of playing to win.

 

Can you just, pretty please, wait until the outcome of December 24th before installing Howell for "talent evaluation"?

 

If we lose to the 9ers... our season's pretty much over.  then it's tryout time... Howell can gain time playing with the 1s

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by petey hodge

[GoDeep81]

I think Turner is actually a pretty good OC.. Outside the 10's. 

 

That's it, that's the tweet. 😂

[FLSkinz83]

The biggest criticism of TH in the RZ seems to be that he's unwilling or unable to throw into tight windows.   That might be true, but....

 

Throwing into tight spaces shouldn't be the primary option in the RZ.   I see other offenses get players open.  I rarely see any of our Receivers open in the RZ.  I'm not even sure what concepts they are running.

 

No Brian Robinson...no Logan Thomas.  We draft Cole Turner for RZ purposes and don't use him.

 

A great QB might overcome all this, but TH can't.  I'm not even sure a good QB can.

[Daniel.redskins]

Both of our QBs hesitate too much in the RedZone.  Just hike it and throw it.  If you hold the ball it gives pass rusher time to get to you and it gives pass defenders time to turn around and find the ball.  Just hike it and throw man.  

[FLSkinz83]

I think a decent solution would be to keep Wentz at half price, hire Frank Reich as O-Coordinator and upgrade the O-Line.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

The biggest criticism of TH in the RZ seems to be that he's unwilling or unable to throw into tight windows.   That might be true, but....

 

 

And the key point is he's wildly inaccurate in the red zone.  We've posted some of the clips on this thread, you don't see guys open?

 

On this one I know Logan would be on the other side of your point, he had a whole segment on the red zone and talked about plays are there to be made and criticized Heinicke on that front.

 

I don't think its a coinicidence that Ron publicly and apparently privately discussed Heinicke's red zone woes as his a theme both after the bye week and post Giants game.  If it were just hey dude you've been rocking when you've thrown the ball in the red zone but stop being so conservative -- that's an easy problem to fix.  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We've posted some of the clips on this thread, you don't see guys open?

 

Not consistently open, no.   We all know about the missed throw to Logan a few weeks ago against the Giants.   

 

I remember people saying there were guys open against the Titans from the 2 yard line for Wentz.    Didn't see that either.  

[SkinsGuy]

25 minutes ago, GoDeep81 said:

I think Turner is actually a pretty good OC.. Outside the 10's. 

 

That's it, that's the tweet. 😂

 

 

[MrJL]

56 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Let's say this is accurate.   Why would anyone want an "OK" Coordinator?   

 

This my thought on this entire football operation.  It's average.  I believe it was DeSean Jackson who once said "you can't do epic things with basic people"

 

because greatness is rare and special and the idea it's not is insane

[FLSkinz83]

3 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

because greatness is rare and special and the idea it's not is insane

 

I'll settle for good.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

11 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Not consistently open, no.   We all know about the missed throw to Logan a few weeks ago against the Giants.   

 

I remember people saying there were guys open against the Titans from the 2 yard line for Wentz.    Didn't see that either.  

 

I didn't think of charting plays, maybe I'll get it to it later.  But plenty of times on twitter for those who bothered to freeze frame plays have pointed out guys open.

 

Logan Paulsen talked about it on his last podcast where he dove deep into red zone stuff.  Guys are open to make plays and no he didn't just say that one time to Logan. 

 

But lets say for argument's sake, you are right and its simply Taylor is gun shy to make tight window throws.  So doesn't that make the 6 for 19, which is a 31% completion rate even worse if that happens in the context of Taylor is just throwing when he feels players are wide enough open.  That's atrocious.

 

I think I know where you are coming from on Taylor being unwilling to make tight throws because of the talk about Taylor's picks in the red zone last year so he's looking to be more conservative to avoid that this time.  But that thought process alone doesn't wipe away he's been atrocious in the red zone -- more specifically the low red zone.  And much worse in the low red zone -- 10 yard line to end zone.  Not as bad from 20-10.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/19/commanders-red-zone/

 

Inside the low red zone, Heinicke has completed just 8 of 24 attempts (33.3 percent). It is the lowest mark in the NFL by nearly 10 percent. Since 2000, out of 752 qualified quarterback seasons, Heinicke’s completion percentage this year is tied for 727th.

 

In the most critical situations, it’s even worse. On third and fourth down, Heinicke has completed 1 of 11 passes (9.1 percent). Since 2000, the only quarterback to attempt double-digit passes inside the low red zone and have a worse completion percentage was Chicago Bears rookie Justin Fields in 2021 (0 for 10).

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I didn't think of charting plays, maybe I'll get it to it later.  But plenty of times on twitter for those who bothered to freeze frame plays have pointed out guys open.

 

Logan Paulsen talked about it on his last podcast.  Guys are open to make plays and now he didn't just say that one time to Logan. 

 

But lets say for argument's sake, you are right and its simply Taylor is gun shy to make tight window throws.  So doesn't that make the 6 for 19, which is a 31% completion rate even worse if that happens in the context of Taylor is just throwing when he feels players are wide enough open.  That's atrocious.

 

The thing about "open" Receivers is that we don't know where those Receivers are in the progression.   They might be the 3rd or 4th option on the play.   We rarely pass protect long enough to get to the 3rd progression

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

The thing about "open" Receivers is that we don't know where those Receivers are in the progression.   They might be the 3rd or 4th option on the play.   We rarely pass protect long enough to get to the 3rd progression

 

OK, lol, lets bottom line this so we don't have to go back and forth forever. 😀

 

Is your point you are more than comfortable with Taylor in the red zone, he's fine.  Any struggles can be imputed mostly to coaching?  If not what's your thesis, sticking to Taylor.

[NewCliche21]

5 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

The thing about "open" Receivers is that we don't know where those Receivers are in the progression.   They might be the 3rd or 4th option on the play.   We rarely pass protect long enough to get to the 3rd progression

 

Bro what offensive line does your argument have to let you get to this "point" in your progression? I love Heine. I'm grateful for him. He has hit his ceiling and his ceiling sucks, let's get moving.  You can swap out a QB, not an OC.

[Renegade7]

I'm sure this has been posted already (so mad about the Giants game felt I needed a stadium break)...but this indicates a shorter leash then even I thought was going on...

 

This sounds like we gonna see Wentz against SF at some point...

[Skinsinparadise]

Red zone stats for the running backs

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, lol, lets bottom line this so we don't have to go back and forth forever. 😀

 

Is your point you are more than comfortable with Taylor in the red zone, he's fine.  Any struggles can be imputed mostly to coaching?  If not what's your thesis, sticking to Taylor.

 

Look, Taylor is not a great QB..he's not even a good starting QB.   I've always maintained that he's solid...C+ level.  Lowe end starter/high quality backup.

 

I'm sure he's part of the problem in the RZ.   But I think Scott and the O-Line are bigger problems.   

 

I think a better play caller can scheme around a players weakness.   I think better pass protection can allow the QB to go through his progressions and not have to force a tight window throw.

 

As I've said before, this isn't just about TH.   I said the same thing about Wentz.   I was defending him when he was out there.

[bowhunter]

5 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Uh no. Ron still has 2 years. 23 is a prove it year to the new owner, to whether he wants Ron or make his first coaching hire.

Oh Thanks! For some reason I was thinking 2023 was his final year

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Look, Taylor is not a great QB..he's not even a good starting QB.   I've always maintained that he's solid...C+ level.  Lowe end starter/high quality backup.

 

I'm sure he's part of the problem in the RZ.   But I think Scott and the O-Line are bigger problems.   

 

I think a better play caller can scheme around a players weakness.   I think better pass protection can allow the QB to go through his progressions and not have to force a tight window throw.

 

As I've said before, this isn't just about TH.   I said the same thing about Wentz.   I was defending him when he was out there.

 

OK.

 

C plus is above average.  So when @KDawg said the other day anyone here see Taylor is a top 25 QB in the league, is your answer yes?

 

So  if I follow your point Taylor is an average QB in the red zone but just looks below average in the red zone because of poor coaching?

 

As far as Wentz goes, i am not a big fan based on what I saw.  If I liked Wentz, i'd have an easier time blaming his woes on the coaches. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK.

 

C plus is above average.  So when @KDawg said the other day anyone here see Taylor is a top 25 QB in the league, is your answer yes?

 

So  if I follow your point Taylor is an average QB in the red zone but just looks below average in the red zone because of poor coaching?

 

 

 

I'd say just outside the top 25.  more like 28-35.   Not 60th like PFF.

 

I would say yes to your 2nd point.   Poor coaching and poor pass protection.  

[Jumbo]

[FLSkinz83]

16 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Bro what offensive line does your argument have to let you get to this "point" in your progression? I love Heine. I'm grateful for him. He has hit his ceiling and his ceiling sucks, let's get moving.  You can swap out a QB, not an OC.

 

I think he's hit his ceiling in the current situation.  But I don't think going to Wentz or Howell will make things better currently. 

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK.

 

C plus is above average.  So when @KDawg said the other day anyone here see Taylor is a top 25 QB in the league, is your answer yes?

 

So  if I follow your point Taylor is an average QB in the red zone but just looks below average in the red zone because of poor coaching?

 

As far as Wentz goes, i am not a big fan based on what I saw.  If I liked Wentz, i'd have an easier time blaming his woes on the coaches. 

No one said yes.  Which doesn’t follow the arguments some folks continuously make in Taylor’s favor. It’s not about liking him or not liking him. We aren’t getting solid, good, hell even decent QB play out of him. 
 

His upside, and it’s been every time he’s had to come in for us in an injury situation, is that he gives you a spark and a few weeks where who he is as a person propels the team forward. Gives them a jolt. I won’t ever deny him that.

 

And truth be told, despite his ratings… having Heinicke as a backup makes sense to me as long as Turner is here. Plus I just like him as a guy. As a coach he is exactly the kind of guy you want in the locker room and in the QB room so the team believes in the backup.

 

The problem is that a pattern is emerging for two years now. Granted two years doesn’t make a rule… but he comes in hot, gets the team rolling and then fades later in the season. Weather? Film catching up? Body getting banged up? I don’t know. I’m not him or there.

 

But he is a spark plug that can give the engine a little extra life. He’s not the engine. 
 

So to your point above (this entire thing is in agreement): Heinicke isn’t an average starter. If he didn’t have his personality and work ethic he wouldn’t be a QB in the NFL. 
 

But he’s a good option for us in our room. I will never **** on him as a guy or for the things he’s helped this franchise achieve in his time.

 

Heck, he may be a guy I talk about as having enjoyed having him on the roster. 
 

But seeing things like he’s a solid QB and then the same poster saying he may not even be a decent starter rubs me wrong in the conversations with people about Heinicke. 

[redskinss]

I get that most fans didn't want wentz and therefore I get that most fans are ready to give up on him for all the reasons that they didn't want him in the first place but from the team perspective, the perspective that wanted him and was willing to give up two 3's one possibly being a second how can you give up on him after just 6 games.

If that's what you thought of him then why sign him in the first place?

If you thought you could rehabilitate him from everything you already knew, what's changed?

I'm still not totally convinced the team has given up on him despite the fact that it seems every fan has.

I myself don't really care either way I'm just not convinced yet he won't be plan A next year.