The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[TMK9973]

40 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Heineke should have had 2 more ints yesterday.  My preference is to play Howell and see what we have in him or go back to Wentz (after ensuring that we keep our 2nd rounder).

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this thought process at all.

The goal is to win games.  Period. End of story. Stats and everything else is secondary to winning.

We are 4-1 with  TH and. What? 9-4 over his last 14 games?

I don't care if it's because he knows the offense better, or because he takes less sacks, or because he bites the head off a chicken before evey game and does a rain dance.

 

We are winning and any thought to change QB who is winning games makes no sense.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by TMK9973

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Fair...jus in my head, I'm not sure if this is an anomoly,, a trend, or a window yet.  

 

If it is a window, it feels like false hope for a championship because it's not impossible to forsee a situation where during this window any team coming out the NFC in January could get ****-slapped by the AFC team.

 

The Eagles right now may put up a fight, but every time I give Kirk his flowers he turns around and ****s himself like he did yesterday at home against Dallas. I'm not sure who Dak is anymore. 

 

The reason why this conversation on this being a window or not is important because those young budding stars on defense won't stay on rookie contracts forever.  What I saw this offseason was a cap situation that didn't match the rhetoric of the team planners because it wasn't ready for all the sudden getting a QB contract of Wentz size.

 

You've noted the cap is fittin to spike upwards soon, because this first time in a long time I didn't feel confident in our franchise ability to keep our cap in a flexible situation for whatever it is we wanted or needed to do.  All the sudden the black cat fell on its back instead of its feet.

 

As I've stated in the FA thread among other places, I think Dan Snyder's recent finances is a big part of the problem with managing the cap but i don't want to regurgitate that here.  I'll say in short, new ownership likely will be a game changer.  

 

Yeah the cap is supposed to not just climb but to soar, if I recall 2 years from now when the new TV contracts kick in.     

 

I do think this defense presents a window.  Forget just the money, these guys aren't going to be in peak form forever.  It's part of the reason why I desperately want at least good QB play.

 

I am not married to one guy or one solution.  But I am not interested in a slow play prospect from the draft or a below average but cheap QB.  I want either a good veteran QB at a price that isn't outrageous or an elite seeming draft prospect.  I don't see us picking in the range to get Bryce Young who IMO is the only prospect who I feel comfortable can hit the ground running.

 

I am not interested in looking back at this team like the Gibbs-Gregg Williams years where it was heck those defenses were good.  No threat in the playoffs and one season up and one season down but wasn't that cool when we had Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington, C. Griffin, Andre Carter, Sean Taylor, Antonio Pierce-Fletcher, etc.  I want a good offense, doesn't have to be great, but good.  Not Mark Brunell, Jason Campbell round 2.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Renegade7]

@Skinsinparadise I agree on not wanting a rookie QB that could take years to get dividens on the investment in their development because they may need that long.

 

@goskins10 we've talked about this before, we'll be drafting too low to be able to trade up for an elite prospect this year on top of that.

 

Chances of drafting a first round QB go up this year in my eye only from the standpoint we are slowly backing ourselves into a corner on making sure we have a plan to simultaneously upgrade QB and have a clear 2-3 year answer at the position to get out of wasting this roster with Russian roulette like we did with Gibbs 2.0 (excellent analogy to being that up SIP).

 

I'm not particularly happy about what's unfolding from an options standpoint, but at some point we will have to pick one and make the most of it anyway.  Beating this team up for what they should be doing is getting old, I want to stay happy we are winning without allowing my anxiety for future to get the best of me.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Renegade7

[DJHJR86]

I was just thinking if there were any teams out there that I would swap any quarterback on their roster for Heinicke for this team this year and could think of a few where I would prefer Heinicke to everyone on their current roster: Panthers, Saints, Jets, Colts, Texans, and Saints.  I looked up ESPN's QBR and Heinicke would be ranked 22nd in the league right now.  That's above Baker Mayfield (last), Matt Ryan (25th), Zach Wilson (24th), and Davis Mills (nex to last).  Only Dalton is ranked higher.  

[goskins10]

51 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Feel like we saying the same thing...its clear they didn't want him to be the starter the following season he ended as the starter. Why Fitz was brought in one offseason, then Wentz the next.

 

Saying they weren't trying to replace him as the backup doesn't do this conversation justice, you know that's not what we're talking about, right?

 

I had a longer response but not wasitnig my time. The bloded That's the pont! You keep implying they saw him as the starter and thus were replacing him. 

 

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Stop saying Wentz is my guy, I'm trying to be pragmatic here knowing Taylor isn't the guy and wanting to avoid this 2023 conundrum we are diving head first into anyway.

 

 

You are the pragmatist? LOL As opposed to what? Who said TH was the guy? No one. Again you keep arguing a point that is not in contention. You keep throwing in well TH is not the guy so..... We all know TH is not the guy. It's not a major revelation. You keep saying that to defend tyour position they should go to Wentz and bring him back for next year, which is IMO the worst thing they could do. 

 

I am going to back to enjoying the win, no matter how ugly LOL. Have a good Monday! 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

33 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah  this is where I diverge from the whole debate. I am not pro-Heinicke or pro-Wentz. I can see the difference in their styles of play and what's going on with them and say some maybe's, but I don't think its fair to Heinicke to say we can't win with him. We're 9-4 with him as starter in our last 13 games where he started. We know he doesn't have Wentz's arm but he is still putting up similar production to Wentz. Wentz had no running game and had a hurt Robinson and no other bruiser behind him. 

 

The only notable difference between the two that works in Heinicke's favor is the lack of sacks. I pointed out the negative yard drives that the staggering number of less than 10 yard drives under Wentz, much of that is because of sacks he takes forcing us into a must pass system. Heinicke doesn't take those sacks and so we have more productive drives on teh regular. Not saying we're scoring more, but we're getting into a groove. That's all I've got. 

My response to you wasn’t pro-anyone.  Nor did I  say we can’t win with Heinicke.  Clearly, we have been.  So I’m not real sure what much of your response has to do with my post.

 

My point was that running the ball a ton more limits the damage as opposed to a passy heavy scheme, ie: stalled drives, penalties, sacks, etc.  So when you’re comparing what drives look like between the two QB’s it’s not apples to apples, because Scott has chosen to adopt a mega run heavy strategy with Heinicke at the helm, as opposed to him wanting to air it out with Wentz.

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My response to you wasn’t pro-anyone.  Nor did I  say we can’t win with Heinicke.  Clearly, we have been.  So I’m not real sure what much of your response has to do with my post.

 

My point was that running the ball a ton more limits the damage as opposed to a passy heavy scheme, ie: stalled drives, penalties, sacks, etc.  So when you’re comparing what drives look like between the two QB’s it’s not apples to apples, because Scott has chosen to adopt a mega run heavy strategy with Heinicke at the helm, as opposed to him wanting to air it out with Wentz.

Exactly. I agree with you. I think Wentz could do this too if he eliminated the sacks

[50yrSKINSfan]

Question, when are we off the hook of giving up a #2 draft pick for Wentz? Thanks.

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Question, when are we off the hook of giving up a #2 draft pick for Wentz? Thanks.

I think if Wentz misses one more start we should be good. Two more and we're definitely 100% safe.

[Wyvern]

My thoughts on updating the title for this thread:

 

 

Wentz, he coming back? ...Cuz the Hive-mind thinks there's a Taylor'd solution for QB and the Sons of Sam are starting to Howell!

 

J/K

[El Mexican]

I think people are forgetting TH brings a much better run-pass balance to this team.

 

Since he took over at QB our running game has been relevant, not only an afterthought. Our recent wins are a byproduct of this new-found balance.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Exactly. I agree with you. I think Wentz could do this too if he eliminated the sacks

I don’t really have any idea how he would fare, as he only showed glimpses of comfort in Turner’s scheme.  But with the offense scaled down to a run heavy approach, I’ve got to think it would help him somewhat in regards to taking sacks.  A: less opportunity to get sacked. B: play-action becomes more viable and scary for opposing D’s when the QB has a live arm.

 

To reiterate, I don’t think the coaching staff can afford to go away from Heinicke, no matter how bad it looks.  However, if they lose one or two with similar QB output, I don’t think his leash is very long.

3 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

I think people are forgetting TH brings a much better run-pass balance to this team.

 

Since he took over at QB our running game has been relevant, not only an afterthought. Our recent wins are a byproduct of this new-found balance.

This ties into what I’ve been talking about with @Thinking Skins.  This is much more about a Scott Turner than it is TH.

Edited November 21, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I had a longer response but not wasitnig my time. The bloded That's the pont! You keep implying they saw him as the starter and thus were replacing him. 

 

 

He was the starter to end both seasons, not sure the need for semantics of seeing him as the starter when they didn't want him to be the following season.

 

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

You are the pragmatist? LOL As opposed to what? Who said TH was the guy? No one. Again you keep arguing a point that is not in contention. You keep throwing in well TH is not the guy so..... We all know TH is not the guy. It's not a major revelation. You keep saying that to defend tyour position they should go to Wentz and bring him back for next year, which is IMO the worst thing they could do. 

 

Plenty have and still floating the stop gap idea, or Taylor and Howell in 2023 to buy time.  You having tunnel vision doesn't change that, even if I agree with you their positions are whack.  

 

Wentz isn't coming back, it's over, you won, now that he's not an option the reality of not having one in 2023 is gonna keep growing. 

 

Wanted badly to avoid this, you insisting I have a Wentz jersey somewhere sounds good but isn't true and doesn't help the conversation, let it go already.  Other folks have also taken this approach of asking what's best for the team over picking a QB to camp out with for similar reasons.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t really have any idea how he would fare, as he only showed glimpses of comfort in Turner’s scheme.  But with the offense scaled down to a run heavy approach, I’ve got to think it would help him somewhat in regards to taking sacks.  A: less opportunity to get sacked. B: play-action becomes more viable and scary for opposing D’s when the QB has a live arm.

 

 

In a perfect world, yeah. But the question becomes what happens when Wentz throws on 1st and 10 or 2nd and 7? Those are the down and distances where we're seeing Heinicke drop back and take what's given. Maybe we see an 18 yard pass or an incompletion. One is good, one is meh, but neither is as bad as a sack where its just a killer. More than the yards lost is the mindset that gives to the fans and I'd imagine the OL, and players on offense, like "we've now got to dig ourselves out of ANOTHER hole". 

 

I do think that the running game would have helped Wentz more though and was arguing for us to run Williams in Robinson's absence. But that's in the past now. Heinicke has the team playing well and I'm not ready to change anything yet. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

In a perfect world, yeah. But the question becomes what happens when Wentz throws on 1st and 10 or 2nd and 7? Those are the down and distances where we're seeing Heinicke drop back and take what's given. Maybe we see an 18 yard pass or an incompletion. One is good, one is meh, but neither is as bad as a sack where its just a killer. More than the yards lost is the mindset that gives to the fans and I'd imagine the OL, and players on offense, like "we've now got to dig ourselves out of ANOTHER hole". 

 

I do think that the running game would have helped Wentz more though and was arguing for us to run Williams in Robinson's absence. But that's in the past now. Heinicke has the team playing well and I'm not ready to change anything yet. 

I honestly don’t care if we see more Wentz or not, as I don’t expect the results to be great with any strategy.  Just making the point that I could see him faring better with a much different approach.

 

I’m fully aboard the let Heinicke play until he sinks or swims the season, and if it’s sunk - play Howell.

Edited November 21, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[DJHJR86]

Has there been any update to the apparent injury Heinicke suffered yesterday in the 4th quarter?

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I honestly don’t care if we see more Wentz or not, as I don’t expect the results to be great with any strategy.  Just making the point that I could see him faring better with a much different approach.

 

I’m fully aboard the let Heinicke play until he sinks or swims the season, and if it’s sunk - play Howell.

The only reason I don't want to see change "right now" is because this gumbo was made with Heinicke. If Heinicke gets hurt like I thought he was during one game when he took a sideline hit, or the Philly game where he took that late hit or last game where he was limping, then put in whoever the backup is and I am confident they can do reasonably well. Truth is, this is the perfect gumbo base that you can just add a young QB or new QB into and have success because its not dependent on the QB being the secret sauce. 

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Has there been any update to the apparent injury Heinicke suffered yesterday in the 4th quarter?

I doubt very VERY seriously that Heinicke misses any time. This is like Doug Williams, unless his arm/leg or another limb falls off dude is not giving up this starting job. 

[skinsfan66]

They are both low level starters or backups, one makes 5mil one makes 28mil. easy choice.  Oline is a big problem and not going to matter if the goat is back there. Below average pass blocking, average run blocking. Also why put your 3rd string rookie in there to take a beating when every QB we put back there gets a beating.  At least TH has some quicks.  These days D. linemen are bigger quicker faster and stronger.  Need to upgrade OL also a do it all TE or 2. to help. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

42 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

I think people are forgetting TH brings a much better run-pass balance to this team.

He didn’t bring it.  Turner started calling it because they learned last year it’s the only way to win when he plays.  

[goskins10]

44 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

He was the starter to end both seasons, not sure the need for semantics of seeing him as the starter when they didn't want him to be the following season.

 

 

Plenty have and still floating the stop gap idea, or Taylor and Howell in 2023 to buy time.  You having tunnel vision doesn't change that, even if I agree with you their positions are whack.  

 

Wentz isn't coming back, it's over, you won, now that he's not an option the reality of not having one in 2023 is gonna keep growing. 

 

Wanted badly to avoid this, you insisting I have a Wentz jersey somewhere sounds good but isn't true and doesn't help the conversation, let it go already.  Other folks have also taken this approach of asking what's best for the team over picking a QB to camp out with for similar reasons.

 

 

 

Tunnell vision? LOL Just stop it. There is a difference between a stop gap and saying he is the answer. Thgat deos nto mean anyone sees TH as the long term answer - stop gap does not equal belie he is a starter. You having tunnel vision to meet your narrative does not make it so. See, I can do that too. 😂

 

I do agree going into next season with just howell and TH is a recipe for disaster unless Howell somehow shows to be the answer. I find that very difficult to believe, especially since it's unlikely he will get mort than a few games to show what he can if any and the staff isn't convinced he is ready yet - altough that could just be thier way of protecting him. Watch how ready he becomes if TH goes down and Wentz comes in and ****s the bed 😂 😂

 

I disagree having a mid position draft pck puts us out of the drafting a QB market. They just may need to get creative. And if they get the right guy the cost will be worth it. Maybe it will be a disaster like RGIII ended upo being. But they do need to keep swinging until they get a true franchise guy. TH and Wentz are not it, that is clear now. 

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Remember the good ol' days when people were saying they were tired of discussing Heinicke, the Heinicke Hive thread was locked, and his name was taken off the thread title? lol...

 

 

 

 

[D’Pablo]

Anyone heard about how Howell is looking in practice as the #2?

[max21]

I’m sure this has been discussed, but if we go on a run with Taylor, what do you think his hypothetical contract would be after this season? 

[Ball Security]

I’m all for keeping Heinicke as the starter while there is a chance for the playoffs.  I’m all for finding a new QB for 2023.  I’m not opposed to bringing back Wentz, but only on an entirely new deal where his cap hit doesn’t exceed $8M.

 

But I do wonder if the reason they aren’t using Dotson as a weapon in goal to go situations is because of Heinicke’s arm strength.  Dotson was a killer in those situations prior to his hamstring.  They had a golden opportunity to go his way both yesterday and in Philly, but didn’t attempt it.

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Tunnell vision? LOL Just stop it. There is a difference between a stop gap and saying he is the answer. Thgat deos nto mean anyone sees TH as the long term answer - stop gap does not equal belie he is a starter. You having tunnel vision to meet your narrative does not make it so. See, I can do that too. 😂

 

It's not a narrative when my question is and remains who's the starter for 2023, you right no one is saying he could be a 2-3 year option, but 1 year is bad enough for me to keep sounding the alarm.

 

I badly want to move on from this with you as well, I'm not as locked in as you think to look right, I jus want what I believe is beat for the team : )

 

i can live with being wrong on Wentz if we have an actual plan to do somethint besides him...i dont expect an answer on that until season is over. So tempted to fall back on these QB discussions until then.

 

16 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I do agree going into next season with just howell and TH is a recipe for disaster unless Howell somehow shows to be the answer. I find that very difficult to believe, especially since it's unlikely he will get mort than a few games to show what he can if any and the staff isn't convinced he is ready yet - altough that could just be thier way of protecting him. Watch how ready he becomes if TH goes down and Wentz comes in and ****s the bed 😂 😂

 

Bruh, stop scaring me 

 

16 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I disagree having a mid position draft pck puts us out of the drafting a QB market. They just may need to get creative. And if they get the right guy the cost will be worth it. Maybe it will be a disaster like RGIII ended upo being. But they do need to keep swinging until they get a true franchise guy. TH and Wentz are not it, that is clear now. 

 

I mean, if we make the playoffs, wouldn't that be putting us in bottom third of draft order at minimum?

 

I've been open to trading Sweat to move up in the draft in order to give his money to Payne.  Concern is where are the QBs going to start falling in these mock drafts, because I don't want to trade to move up the draft is QB pick top heavy like a couple years ago and even being higher we get left with prospect scraps.