The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

This feels eerily similar to that 4 game win streak last season. People were saying the same stuff then about how Heinicke "just wins", with some even going so far as to talk about giving him a big multi-year extension. Then the wheels came off once we faced good defenses that were able to shut down our rushing attack and force Heinicke to win with his arm.

The offensive output is familiar but I think the overall team, both sides of the ball are better than last season and our competition isn’t as tough.

 

It surely feels like it’s all being setup for a showdown with Dallas in week 18, win and in - where they blow the doors off of the Commanders in Raljon.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

It's been 20 games to reach these conclusions. Hopefully we won't have a bout of COVID to contend with as well this year...

 

What is the conclusion?

[Renegade7]

Just now, Conn said:

 

That’s nice. We all wish we had taken the risk of Herbert over Young now. Who gives a ****, it wasn’t a realistic decision at the time because Haskins was Snyder’s guy. That pick was never happening and nobody liked Herbert (or Tua) that much. Only Burrow was breaking through that Haskins situation. So it’s stupid to keep bringing up and talking about. We all wish we had Herbert, it’s a waste of pixels on the screen. 

 

There's no physical evidence for this, more so Ron really wanted to give him a chance so he didn't have to use a pick on a QB and could take Young.

 

Los Angeles like Herbet, Miami liked Tua, both are likely heading to the playoffs or at least have the answer at that position when we don't.

 

Saying no one liked them is not true.  The question was about passing on a generational talent like Young despite the need at other positions.  Group think won the debate but lost the war, mock drafts were saying the same thing we couldn't pass on Young.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

What is the conclusion?

 

That Heinicke "just wins games".

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

To me, anyway, that means Turner deserves the bullets he's been taking lol...so it shouldn't be TOO mind-boggling.

I meant specifically the bullets he’s been taking about the lack of offensive output with Heinicke.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I meant specifically the bullets he’s been taking about the lack of offensive output with Heinicke.  

 

Ohhh, ok...sorry, missed that lol...

 

EDIT: and yeah, I agree...I'm actually impressed that they're getting 21+ points in a game (even though 7 of those points this week had nothing to do with the offense).

Edited November 21, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

So are you saying trying harder plays no role in winning?

 

Sure, there's obviously going to be a difference between guys who don't care and guys who are trying hard. But I think some people are overstating it as if Heinicke is somehow lifting the whole team up or something.

 

I think there are probably far more banal and easily quantifiable reasons for it. OL healthier and run blocking better, having B Rob, defense playing lights out, better game planning. Obviously that does include some stuff that Heinicke brings like being able to avoid pressure better.

[CapsSkins]

7 minutes ago, dunfer said:

yeah at the end of the year. Weve got like 4 games we can play him in before that 70% that weve already paid for. Lets give him a shot before releasing him and paying him 28 mil

 

I see both sides to this. Ultimately, if the team keeps winning with Heinicke then you can't make a change while they're fighting to make the playoffs.

 

If Heinicke loses, then yeah I'd make the switch. If they're out of it, then it's a tough call whether you play Wentz to see what he's capable of vs. Howell to see what he's capable of.

[86 Snyder]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

You dismissed the post about Wentz's stats last season by saying that he was actually worse than his stat line showed. I'm trying to figure out if you apply that universally or if it's selective. It seems like many people are basically ignoring Heinicke's stats and saying he's better than his poor stat line because the team happens to be winning.

Yeah, I do.  Heinicke kinda sucks.  So do his stats.  Wasn’t hard for me to say.  
 

The whole argument is you have two ****ty choices.  One could have a long term role as a backup with the team.  The other is getting cut.  The former is 4-1 in games started and the latter is 2-4.  Which one should play?

 

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

There's no physical evidence for this, more so Ron really wanted to give him a chance so he didn't have to use a pick on a QB and could take Young.

 

Los Angeles like Herbet, Miami liked Tua, both are likely heading to the playoffs or at least have the answer at that position when we don't.

 

Saying no one liked them is not true.  The question was about passing on a generational talent like Young despite the need at other positions.  Group think won the debate but lost the war, mock drafts were saying the same thing we couldn't pass on Young.

No one liked them at 2 overall.  Washington of all teams is the one supposed to go against the grain and take a QB instead?  I argued they should in real time, but that’s beside the point.  It was never realistic.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Sure, there's obviously going to be a difference between guys who don't care and guys who are trying hard.

 

 

Well, no, I meant specifically guys trying harder than they may have been before. So the guys who didn't care start caring, and the guys who were trying hard before start trying even harder. For me it seems like a motivational factor.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

I know the stats Wentz put up, which is kind of my point regarding the Colts.  When you block, have a great run game, and play tough defense, a bad QB can put up 27/7.  And if you look more closely, you’ll see he sabotaged them in key moments and wasn’t near as good as the numbers appear.  
 

Of course Wentz is better than Ryan.  I just called him the worst QB in the league.  You are not following.

 

How is anything playing scared?  What are you even talking about?  I already explained how nothing we do now impacts beyond January.  Wentz is done.  Draft position is done.  Coaches and players don’t think that way anyway (I do) but there’s truly nothing else left to do except trying to win games.

 

You right, I'm not following. 

 

This jus comes across as another attempt to rip away any credit for anything Wentz does right as part of kicking him off the team and out the league.

 

Bad QBs don't have a 27/7 TD/INT ratio...Taylor for example has never come close to this yet he has to finish the season out because of the overall team record...yea, sure...

[Conn]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

There's no physical evidence for this, more so Ron really wanted to give him a chance so he didn't have to use a pick on a QB and could take Young.

 

Los Angeles like Herbet, Miami liked Tua, both are likely heading to the playoffs or at least have the answer at that position when we don't.

 

Saying no one liked them is not true.  The question was about passing on a generational talent like Young despite the need at other positions.  Group think won the debate but lost the war, mock drafts were saying the same thing we couldn't pass on Young.

 

I won’t be wasting another post on this because it’s ****ing stupid. It’s been re-litigated a thousand times here and you’ve been wrong every single time. Every reasonable person knows that Snyder was not giving up on his hand-picked QB who showed promise at the end of the previous season, and that Rivera doubtless promised to give him a chance to develop when he was hired. There doesn’t need to be evidence of it, we have 23 years of Snyder’s history to prove it. How many coaching hires did we make contingent on “fixing” a Snyder QB? Almost all of them. Almost every single one. 

This team was not taking a QB at #2 with a “safe” franchise pass rusher staring them in the face, with Haskins in-house. And it has nothing to do with Rivera not wanting to work with a rookie QB, immediately drafting Cam Newton was the only reason Rivera was ever relevant. You know how rare it is for a team to immediately draft a QB after taking one in the 1st in the modern era? We can name the examples because it’s that rare. It wasn’t happening. Tua had the hip. Herbert was seen by half the world as the next Jake Locker. Rivera was locked into Haskins unless Burrow fell. Period. We all wish it was different, man. 

[Skinsinparadise]

After watching our game, I watched most of the Raiders overtime win today.  

 

Sorry, whomever thinks yawn Derek Carr are nuts.    If we had Carr right now with this roster, it would be very dangerous IMO. 

 

Watching Taylor and Carr in back to back games -- its a totally different strata of QB and it doesn't take any deep thinking to see it.

 

No Carr isn't top 10.  He's not great.  But he's hardcore good.  And we aren't getting hardcore good Qb play by a long shot.

[redskinss]

Our defense played as well today as the cowboys defense did and we beat a one win team by 13, they're killing an 8 and 1 team by 40.

That's the difference between having a real quarterback and game planning around a handicap of monumental proportion.

 

I too think that our options being put wentz back in or sticking with the guy who keeps winning despite all odds I say stick with the hot hand but on a short leash.

 

If Heinicke has a 100 yard game with multiple turnovers and we lose despite great play from the rest of the team, we go back to Wentz. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by redskinss

[mistertim]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Well, no, I meant specifically guys trying harder than they may have been before. So the guys who didn't care start caring, and the guys who are trying hard before start trying even harder. For me it seems like a motivational factor.

 

I guess my issue is that just sounds too ephemeral and impossible to prove or disprove. I think most of the guys on the team were already trying hard and cared, but there were other things that just weren't clicking.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think there are probably far more banal and easily quantifiable reasons for it. OL healthier and run blocking better, having B Rob, defense playing lights out, better game planning. Obviously that does include some stuff that Heinicke brings like being able to avoid pressure better.

 

If we weren't something like 8-30 over the last 4 years when either Smith or Heinicke weren't playing, I'd buy that. But I'm on record as saying I can't convince myself that either of these two QBs just got insanely lucky to be behind center when the rest of the team started playing better and they just got to tag along for the ride. I think it's far more likely that their intangibles helped the team play better. Everything from 2018 onward makes it impossible for me to dismiss that.

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

No one liked them at 2 overall.  Washington of all teams is the one supposed to go against the grain and take a QB instead?  I argued they should in real time, but that’s beside the point.  It was never realistic.

 

No, I said trade down, even it was to trade up for a QB the following draft...but noooooo...nExT lAwReNcE tAyLoR!!!!

1 minute ago, Conn said:

 

I won’t be wasting another post on this because it’s ****ing stupid. It’s been re-litigated a thousand times here and you’ve been wrong every single time. Every reasonable person knows that Snyder was not giving up on his hand-picked QB who showed promise at the end of the previous season, and that Rivera doubtless promised to give him a chance to develop when he was hired. There doesn’t need to be evidence of it, we have 23 years of Snyder’s history to prove it. How many coaching hires did we make contingent on “fixing” a Snyder QB? Almost all of them. Almost every single one. 

This team was not taking a QB at #2 with a “safe” franchise pass rusher staring them in the face, with Haskins in-house. And it has nothing to do with Rivera not wanting to work with a rookie QB, immediately drafting Cam Newton was the only reason Rivera was ever relevant. You know how rare it is for a team to immediately draft a QB after taking one in the 1st in the modern era? We can name the examples because it’s that rare. It wasn’t happening. Tua had the hip. Herbert was seen by half the world as the next Jake Locker. Rivera was locked into Haskins unless Burrow fell. Period. We all wish it was different, man. 

 

Yes there needs to be evidence in a debate, otherwise what are we doing here?

[Zim489]

36 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Scott Turner

His QB cant throw the ball 

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

If we weren't something like 8-30 over the last 4 years when either Smith or Heinicke weren't playing, I'd buy that. But I'm on record as saying I can't convince myself that either of these two QBs just got insanely lucky to be behind center when the rest of the team started playing better and they just got to tag along for the ride. I think it's far more likely that their intangibles helped the team play better. Everything from 2018 onward makes it impossible for me to dismiss that.

 

That's fine. Agree to disagree.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

I guess my issue is that just sounds too ephemeral and impossible to prove or disprove. I think most of the guys on the team were already trying hard and cared, but there were other things that just weren't clicking.

 

Oh, it's definitely impossible to prove/disprove lol...that's why I just go ahead and trust when the players themselves start saying it's real. If they're saying it's a different "vibe" (so to speak) on the field when Heinicke is behind center, I don't have anything that tells me I should dismiss their words outside of maybe I just don't want to believe them. The record definitely backs Allen and McLaurin up, though.

[Conn]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Yes there needs to be evidence in a debate, otherwise what are we doing here?

Using our brains. Well, some of us. 
 

Maybe try reading and internalizing the rest of my post, but I won’t be responding on this topic again because you are, and have always been, so obviously incorrect.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

These last 3 games makes me really hope that somehow Howell ends up being noticeably better than either Heinicke or Wentz. Having him on his rookie deal for 3 more seasons would be an undeniably great thing.

[86 Snyder]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

You right, I'm not following. 

 

This jus comes across as another attempt to rip away any credit for anything Wentz does right as part of kicking him off the team and out the league.

 

Bad QBs don't have a 27/7 TD/INT ratio...Taylor for example has never come close to this yet he has to finish the season out because of the overall team record...yea, sure...

Picture a piece of paper.

 

Write all the names of QBs in the league who objectively have the ability to get to a Super Bowl.  
 

Draw a line underneath it.  

 

There’s all sorts of names under the line.  Heinicke, Wentz, Geno, Mac Jones, Mariota, Winston, Matt Ryan, Zach Wilson, Brissette, etc, etc

 

There’s all kinds of them.  Some are 1st round picks, some are old vets, some have never been real starters, it goes on and on.

 

If you’re choosing from that pool, you should choose based on your circumstances.  Maybe you’re playing for draft position, maybe you’re playing not to get a coach fired, maybe you’re on a little win streak and somehow have a shot at the playoffs.

 

Heinicke makes a world of sense for this team given their circumstances.  Wentz does not.  He already ruled himself out.

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, Conn said:

Using our brains. Well, some of us. 
 

Maybe try reading and internalizing the rest of my post, but I won’t be responding on this topic again because you are, and have always been, so obviously incorrect.

 

Mah, this notion Ron had no choice but to stay with Haskins because of Snyder but cuts him same season doest add up to me, it just doesn't.

 

What seems more likely is a defensive coach salivate at the easy out to take Young over trading down to address the larger need at QB.

 

Your claim half of folks thought Herbert was a bust doesn't address the other half.  None of this address even an average QB on a rookie contract is better then what we are dealing with right now trying to figure out what to do for 2023, year fn 4 of this regime...

Edited November 21, 2022 by Renegade7

[CapsSkins]

People were generally hopeful about Haskins (RIP) after 2019. There's no way Rivera could have known just how immature Dwayne was and just how horrendous his judgment was.