The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

Just now, 86 Snyder said:

Sigh…again, no.  There is actually a fairly huge difference between the Colts last year and this year that has nothing to do with QB if you actually watch them.  Its not a comparable situation, especially when there is a better, more relevant comparison staring you right in the face.

 

And what about this year? Wentz had better stats than Heinicke does. More yards, better TD/INT numbers, slightly better completion percentage. Was he worse than his stats but Heinicke is better than his? If so, why?

 

Let me guess..."because moxie" or something.

 

As I've said before, I don't think there's any reason to put Wentz back in at this point. He wasn't good and we're winning with our current formula. But can we not pretend like Heinicke has a whole lot to do with it? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, FLSkinz83 said:

We've played 8 games on regular or short rest this year.....The offense has scored more than 20 points once (scored 16 Today)....with 43 points in the first half.

 

We've played 3 games with extra time to prepare....The offense has scored 28, 26 and 23....with 44 points in the first half.

 

You can blame the QB's all you want, but the problem starts with one person....Scott Turner. 

It’s mind boggling to me that Scott Turner is taking bullets, when he’s camouflaged the play of our QB to where we are talking playoffs.  It is not easy to create a gameplan that will allow Taylor Heinicke to steward the offense to wins.  Most OC’s don’t have it in them to figure out a way to win in this capacity.

 

 

[CapsSkins]

34 minutes ago, dunfer said:

Wentz is paid. lets just see if we can get anything for the $

 

He can be cut for zero dead cap.

 

Not cutting him is equivalent to re-signing him.

[86 Snyder]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Please break this down, as I'm not not buying this but will listen...

First of all, Matt Ryan has been absolutely atrocious.  Like worst QB in the league atrocious.  The oline is a turnstile and is not blocking up the run game like they did last year.  Their entire identity was Jonathan Taylor and this year he’s been a total non factor until last week.  The defense isn’t right either and Shaq Leonard is now out for the year after playing injured and ineffective all season.  He’s all-world when healthy.  Total game changer on that side of the ball.

 

All the ways this team is winning now are the exact same ways the Colts did last year.  Any bad QB would be getting exposed in Indy this year.  
 

As to Washington, you can acknowledge Heinicke’s record without giving him the credit.  He’s obviously being lifted up, but when you win 4 out of 5 games and the other option on the bench isn’t a real starter, you cannot mess with the formula.  It’s not even a decision.  You roll with the guy who is winning.

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

For all the generational talent experts...Herbert beat Burrow to 10k yards passing...

Not really that surprising given Burrow tore his ACL

Edited November 20, 2022 by Conn

[FootballZombie]

12 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Can someone please explain explicitly how the team "playing harder for Heinicke" (or however you want to phrase it) translates into on field success? Does his moxie make B Robs legs move faster? Does it make receivers run better routes? Does it make our pass rushers have better moves? Does it inspire Scott Turner to new heights of offensive creativity?

 

 

The only tangible effect TH has on the O is quite literally forcing Scott Turner to run the football b/c he has no other option.

That actually plays to our strengths seeing as how we are god awful at QB and Pass Pro.

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s mind boggling to me that Scott Turner is taking bullets, when he’s camouflaged the play of our QB to where we are talking playoffs.  It is not easy to create a gameplan that will allow Taylor Heinicke to steward the offense to wins.  Most OC’s don’t have it in them to figure out a way to win in this capacity.

 

 

 

So I gather you think the stat I provided is just a coincidence?  

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, Conn said:

Not really that surprising given Burrow tore his ACL

 

Same way Young did? 🤔

[Califan007 The Constipated]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Can someone please explain explicitly how the team "playing harder for Heinicke" (or however you want to phrase it) translates into on field success? Does his moxie make B Robs legs move faster? Does it make receivers run better routes? Does it make our pass rushers have better moves? Does it inspire Scott Turner to new heights of offensive creativity?

 

So are you saying trying harder plays no role in winning?

[86 Snyder]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

And what about this year? Wentz had better stats than Heinicke does. More yards, better TD/INT numbers, slightly better completion percentage. Was he worse than his stats but Heinicke is better than his? If so, why?

 

Let me guess..."because moxie" or something.

 

As I've said before, I don't think there's any reason to put Wentz back in at this point. He wasn't good and we're winning with our current formula. But can we not pretend like Heinicke has a whole lot to do with it? 

Where did I make an argument based on stats?  And where did I attribute the credit for recent wins to Heinicke?

 

I swear to god, some of y’all just can’t have a rational conversation about Heinicke.  You hear his name and jump three levels to some bogeyman idea that anybody actually thinks he’s GOOD.

 

He’s not.  He’s not starter level material.  He does have the type of ego that will let him go back to the bench.  He’s not responsible for the 4 recent wins.  All he did was not **** it up.  Sadly, that’s the best we got.  So you stick with him for this year and try to get better in the off-season.  

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

First of all, Matt Ryan has been absolutely atrocious.  Like worst QB in the league atrocious.  The oline is a turnstile and is not blocking up the run game like they did last year.  Their entire identity was Jonathan Taylor and this year he’s been a total non factor until last week.  The defense isn’t right either and Shaq Leonard is now out for the year after playing injured and ineffective all season.  He’s all-world when healthy.  Total game changer on that side of the ball.

 

All the ways this team is winning now are the exact same ways the Colts did last year.  Any bad QB would be getting exposed in Indy this year.  
 

 

Wentz had a 27 to 7 TD to Int ratio last year, Ryan is 10 to 9 this year.  I'd love to met a Colts fan that would take Ryan over Wentz right now, please, introduce us to each other...

 

6 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

As to Washington, you can acknowledge Heinicke’s record without giving him the credit.  He’s obviously being lifted up, but when you win 4 out of 5 games and the other option on the bench isn’t a real starter, you cannot mess with the formula.  It’s not even a decision.  You roll with the guy who is winning.

 

This is playing scared versus making calculated decisions on what's best for January and beyond. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Renegade7

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s mind boggling to me that Scott Turner is taking bullets, when he’s camouflaged the play of our QB to where we are talking playoffs.  It is not easy to create a gameplan that will allow Taylor Heinicke to steward the offense to wins.  Most OC’s don’t have it in them to figure out a way to win in this capacity.

 

 

 

Why didn't he do that with Wentz, Allen, and Haskins? I would imagine it would be easier to hide their flaws than it has been to hide Heinicke's flaws.

[Conn]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Same way Young did? 🤔

not really sure of the relevance. Think Young had more than “just” an ACL that complicated things though. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

So I gather you think the stat I provided is just a coincidence?  

It’s a small sample size and there are a # of variables you aren’t taking into account.

 

Scott Turner is absolutely not the problem when Taylor Heinicke is under center.  He was an absolute abomination with Wentz and was ignorantly defiant in his pursuit to let it rip downfield.  But when he gets forced to play Heinicke, he does his best work.  That’s not really a compliment to his overall abilities as an OC, point being I’d rather have someone else if we had a legit QB.  But I have to tip my cap for his ability to draw up enough to win the way we’ve been winning. 

[mistertim]

This feels eerily similar to that 4 game win streak last season. People were saying the same stuff then about how Heinicke "just wins", with some even going so far as to talk about giving him a big multi-year extension. Then the wheels came off once we faced good defenses that were able to shut down our rushing attack and force Heinicke to win with his arm.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, mistertim said:

This feels eerily similar to that 4 game win streak last season. People were saying the same stuff then about how Heinicke "just wins", with some even going so far as to talk about giving him a big multi-year extension. Then the wheels came off once we faced good defenses that were able to shut down our rushing attack and force Heinicke to win with his arm.

 

It's been 20 games to reach these conclusions. Hopefully we won't have a bout of COVID to contend with as well this year...

[Renegade7]

Just now, Conn said:

not really sure of the relevance. Think Young had more than “just” an ACL that complicated things though. 

 

The point is there's a lot of things that go into folks being generational talents and then having generational careers.

 

That's not what we needed in context to what's missing from this team right now.  I said that then, it's pretty accurate now.

[Cooleyfan1993]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

This feels eerily similar to that 4 game win streak last season. People were saying the same stuff then about how Heinicke "just wins", with some even going so far as to talk about giving him a big multi-year extension. Then the wheels came off once we faced good defenses that were able to shut down our rushing attack and force Heinicke to win with his arm.

Yeah, I don’t see this team under heinicke winning next week against the falcons with the game plan we’ve had as of late. I hope I’m wrong 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Why didn't he do that with Wentz, Allen, and Haskins? I would imagine it would be easier to hide their flaws than it has been to hide Heinicke's flaws.

I covered that in my next post.  It’s hard for me to recall his performances with Allen and Haskins, but with Wentz he seemed hellbent on dropping back and letting it rip, when the interior OL was giving up relentless pressure.  It seems he can only draw this stuff up and commit to the run when he knows it’s the only option due to Heinicke’s limitations as a passer.

[Conn]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

The point is there's a lot of things that go into folks being generational talents and then having generational careers.

 

That's not what we needed in context to what's missing from this team right now.  I said that then, it's pretty accurate now.

 

That’s nice. We all wish we had taken the risk of Herbert over Young now. Who gives a ****, it wasn’t a realistic decision at the time because Haskins was Snyder’s guy. That pick was never happening and nobody liked Herbert (or Tua) that much. Only Burrow was breaking through that Haskins situation. So it’s stupid to keep bringing up and talking about. We all wish we had Herbert, it’s a waste of pixels on the screen. 

[dunfer]

6 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

He can be cut for zero dead cap.

 

Not cutting him is equivalent to re-signing him.

yeah at the end of the year. Weve got like 4 games we can play him in before that 70% that weve already paid for. Lets give him a shot before releasing him and paying him 28 mil

[Conn]

Just now, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Yeah, I don’t see this team under heinicke winning next week against the falcons with the game plan we’ve had as of late. I hope I’m wrong 

Falcons have had the same game plans as us really. Mariota is more mobile than Heinicke but they’ve been hiding him all season. And now they may be without Pitts. That’s a winnable game 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I covered that in my next post.  It’s hard for me to recall his performances with Allen and Haskins, but with Wentz he seemed hellbent on dropping back and letting it rip, when the interior OL was giving up relentless pressure.  It seems he can only draw this stuff up and commit to the run when he knows it’s the only option due to Heinicke’s limitations as a passer.

 

To me, anyway, that means Turner deserves the bullets he's been taking lol...so it shouldn't be TOO mind-boggling.

[86 Snyder]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Wentz had a 27 to 7 TD to Int ratio last year, Ryan is 10 to 9.  I'd love to met a Colts fan that would take Ryan over Wentz right now, please, introduce us to each other...

 

 

This is playing scared versus making calculated decisions on what's best for January and beyond. 

I know the stats Wentz put up, which is kind of my point regarding the Colts.  When you block, have a great run game, and play tough defense, a bad QB can put up 27/7.  And if you look more closely, you’ll see he sabotaged them in key moments and wasn’t near as good as the numbers appear.  
 

Of course Wentz is better than Ryan.  I just called him the worst QB in the league.  You are not following.

 

How is anything playing scared?  What are you even talking about?  I already explained how nothing we do now impacts beyond January.  Wentz is done.  Draft position is done.  Coaches and players don’t think that way anyway (I do) but there’s truly nothing else left to do except trying to win games.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Where did I make an argument based on stats?  And where did I attribute the credit for recent wins to Heinicke?

 

I swear to god, some of y’all just can’t have a rational conversation about Heinicke.  You hear his name and jump three levels to some bogeyman idea that anybody actually thinks he’s GOOD.

 

He’s not.  He’s not starter level material.  He does have the type of ego that will let him go back to the bench.  He’s not responsible for the 4 recent wins.  All he did was not **** it up.  Sadly, that’s the best we got.  So you stick with him for this year and try to get better in the off-season.  

 

You dismissed the post about Wentz's stats last season by saying that he was actually worse than his stat line showed. I'm trying to figure out if you apply that universally or if it's selective. It seems like many people are basically ignoring Heinicke's stats and saying he's better than his poor stat line because the team happens to be winning.