The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

It’s a shame we aren’t sure what we have in Howell yet. Rivera was very hot on him post draft, a home run selection I think he said. Highly unlikely to see him being the answer, but who knows I guess. I also think Wentz is done, especially at 20mil plus.

 

I would say, and this is almost nailed on for me, new ownership will make a significant investment at QB. Offseason 2023 may well be a season too soon to get that done. I would not discount it though.

That’s the #1 thing the new owner will do is get a franchise qb. Thing is the new owner likely won’t be in place in time to do for 23; hence why I look to 24.

 

23 likely a stopgap solution, as it’s a year in transition between owners.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t really have any idea how he would fare, as he only showed glimpses of comfort in Turner’s scheme.  But with the offense scaled down to a run heavy approach, I’ve got to think it would help him somewhat in regards to taking sacks.  A: less opportunity to get sacked. B: play-action becomes more viable and scary for opposing D’s when the QB can has a live arm.

 

To reiterate, I don’t think the coaching staff can afford to go away from Heinicke, no matter how bad it looks.  However, if they lose one or two with similar QB output, I don’t think his leash is very long.

Agree with all of this.  My guess is that Heinicke gets the next 2 games regardless, but I think it mostly hinges on the Giants game for him.  If he plays poorly (and the team loses), I think they turn to Wentz over the bye in the hopes he can beat the Giants in that 2nd matchup.  If TH plays his usual game against the Giants, he probably holds onto the starting gig, though maybe on a game to game basis?

 

My thing with Wentz is I just don’t know that he fits this offensive style (I’m not saying he is definitively not a fit).  

Possibly the biggest knock against him - looking for the big play (ie holding the ball), and conversely not taking the easy play (the “layup” as Ballard put it) - certainly seems to run counter to this style.  And of course his lack of mobility and the questionable pass pro don’t help obviously.  

 

When you add to this what I took to be the main issue Kurt Warner highlighted, his struggles with reads, pre-snap - not playing the numbers game correctly, and post-snap - sometimes struggling with reading key defenders…it’s a tough sell.  Now, I do believe he could get more out of the pass plays (especially early down PA passing) when the pocket is clean, assuming he hasn’t taken a beating to that point, but I’m not convinced that makes up for that potential struggle with moving the chains.

 

With all of that said, I’m leaving open the possibility (he’s a smart guy after all) that he recognizes the need to play within this style of offense.  That his time on the bench - both watching (and dissecting) how these games have unfolded, as well as getting more accustomed to the offense - helps him mentally to be able to execute this iteration of the Turner offense.

And I’ll add that when we do face a team that can stop our ground game, Wentz most likely offers a better chance if we have to turn more pass heavy within a game.  Of course Turner needs to do his part in pass pro - chipping tackles, leaving 6 or more in to block, etc.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

That’s the #1 thing the new owner will do is get a franchise qb. Thing is the new owner likely won’t be in place in time to do for 23; hence why I look to 24.

 

23 likely a stopgap solution, as it’s a year in transition between owners.

 

I seriously hope that's not the #1 thing the (possible) new owner would do...

[88Comrade2000]

Don’t you all think the teams drafting ahead of us that needs a qb will draft a qb?  We are likely drafting somewhere between 15-21. I doubt any so called franchise qbs will be around then. The best qbs if the 23 draft will be long gone and Ron isn’t the type to trade up.

 

Now if the new owner were in place by March; all bets are off.

 

Right now you just have to assume it’s status quo; that Ron and his Gm posse making the decisions.

[88Comrade2000]

4 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I seriously hope that's not the #1 thing the (possible) new owner would do...

Well, personnel wise. QB would be the #1 priority.

 

Here’s what the new owner will do upon being approved.

 

He will have a meeting with Ron and tell Ron that he will be coach only. He will tell Ron he’s bringing his own GM immediately and firing his Gm crew. If Ron doesn’t like that, he can leave. As for any long term at coaching; 23 would be an evaluation year and the new Gm will decide if Ron remains.

 

I am record of saying Ron should be gone in 24 but I also know reality says 23, Ron will be evaluated and the new Gm will decide if Ron remains.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Well, personnel wise. QB would be the #1 priority.

 

 

Slightly embarrassed to admit I took what you said literally lol...should have thought it through before I responded.

[NoCalMike]

Every time I hear "the offense rallies around him" in reference to Heinicke, I just think in response, well yes, yes they do, because they have to, in order to win.  What the hell does that even mean outside of typical rah-rah we just won talk from a teammate?  I think fans read too much into that kind of quote.  Everyone that says McLaurin loves TH and shows emotion, did you all miss McLaurin's reaction when he caught the 60 yd TD pass from Wentz in the opener?  McLaurin showed as much if not more emotion at getting a pass thrown to him when he was wide open, that he didn't have to break stride to catch and didn't have to sacrifice his body to fight for. He looked pretty hyped up to me.     

[KDawg]

I don't understand why there needs to be this much discussion on this topic (though, I kind of do. It's a discussion forum and what the hell else are we going to have back and forth convos about?)

 

Heinicke is a player who is a gritty, hardnosed player who does everything that a quarterback is supposed to do in literally every aspect except physically, which is a spot where he is lacking and at times making bad decisions (but that is also what gives him some juice because those 50/50 balls are plays our guys thrive on) which is why he can't be our long term definitive starting QB.

 

He is a backup type who can start if needed.

 

Right now... it's needed. With a better QB on the roster? It won't be. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, NoCalMike said:

Every time I hear "the offense rallies around him" in reference to Heinicke, I just think in response, well yes, yes they do, because they have to, in order to win.  What the hell does that even mean outside of typical rah-rah we just won talk from a teammate?  I think fans read too much into that kind of quote.  Everyone that says McLaurin loves TH and shows emotion, did you all miss McLaurin's reaction when he caught the 60 yd TD pass from Wentz in the opener?  McLaurin showed as much if not more emotion at getting a pass thrown to him when he was wide open, that he didn't have to break stride to catch and didn't have to sacrifice his body to fight for. He looked pretty hyped up to me.     

 

Every time I hear a fan say "that's just rah-rah talk from a teammate" in reference to players talking about Heinicke, I just think in response what they're saying is that they simply don't want to believe it.

 

As for McLaurin's reaction after the 49 yard TD pass (not 60) from Wentz in the opener, other teammates said that Terry's reaction after the 46 yard TD from Heinicke against the Packers was the most animated, emotional, and vocal they've ever seen him react in his entire career with Washington.

[JSSkinz]

I don't understand why Ron had to announce Heinicke as the starter for the rest of the year, make him earn it week to week.

[Ball Security]

23 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Don’t you all think the teams drafting ahead of us that needs a qb will draft a qb?  We are likely drafting somewhere between 15-21. I doubt any so called franchise qbs will be around then. The best qbs if the 23 draft will be long gone and Ron isn’t the type to trade up.

 

Now if the new owner were in place by March; all bets are off.

 

Right now you just have to assume it’s status quo; that Ron and his Gm posse making the decisions.

KC went into the draft with the 27th overall and ended up with mahomes.  

Now there may appear to be more teams needing a QB, but in that draft, you had teams like the jets passing on him and other teams like the Jags and Titans sticking with their rookie contract QBs.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Ball Security

[SkinsFTW]

33 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

That’s the #1 thing the new owner will do is get a franchise qb. 

They haven't had one of those in decades yet somehow the new owner is going to just get one?

 

[TMK9973]

8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Every time I hear "the offense rallies around him" in reference to Heinicke, I just think in response, well yes, yes they do, because they have to, in order to win.  What the hell does that even mean outside of typical rah-rah we just won talk from a teammate?  I think fans read too much into that kind of quote.  Everyone that says McLaurin loves TH and shows emotion, did you all miss McLaurin's reaction when he caught the 60 yd TD pass from Wentz in the opener?  McLaurin showed as much if not more emotion at getting a pass thrown to him when he was wide open, that he didn't have to break stride to catch and didn't have to sacrifice his body to fight for. He looked pretty hyped up to me.     

The players are flat out telling you that TH brings out the best in them. That they are playing better with them.

 

You can say the fans are reading to much into this but you are ignoring what the players are saying.

 

This is not nothing. You see this in every aspect of life. At work some people can be doing the same exact thing but 1 is a better leader and people around them perform better.

 

It's not just sports. It's life. Some people are leaders and makes others around them be better. 

 

TH has the best Wining % of Any Washington QB not named Alex Smith in a long time.

 

In last two years we are 12-9 when he has started and 2-6 when he doesn't.

 He makes everyone around him play better. 

 

 

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

I looked up ESPN's QBR and Heinicke would be ranked 22nd in the league right now.  That's above Baker Mayfield (last), Matt Ryan (25th), Zach Wilson (24th), and Davis Mills (nex to last).  Only Dalton is ranked higher.  

 

Peeps fell down that same rabbit hole w/ Wentz QBR last year.

 

Its silly to compare the efficiency of a guy who is asked to do so little vs other guys who are asked to carry their team to a larger extent. Its even worse when comparing someone with THs role with virtually anyone b/c his job is to hand off the ball 40 times and the most difficult passes are cut from the playbook.

 

TH is getting graded on a easier test. It's off base to be happy that TH gets a D- on a fractions test while others get an F in Calculus, it should be much more concerning that dude is only getting a D- in fractions. I've said it for Wentz and I'll say it for TH, QBR is a worthless metric to compare QBs. It only shows their performance in their roles and not what those roles actually are.

 

TH having a slightly higher efficiency when he is asked to do next to nothing at the QB spot does not mean he is performing better than someone who's score is lower, but has to lift more weight, be the focal point of opposing DCs and is forced to take more chances because their teams success depends on it.

Edited November 21, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Est.1974]

29 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't understand why Ron had to announce Heinicke as the starter for the rest of the year, make him earn it week to week.

I think THs interview post game answers that. He was fairly emotional about being nominated starter. I can imagine that has had a significant impact in the locker room, in a positive way.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

52 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't understand why Ron had to announce Heinicke as the starter for the rest of the year, make him earn it week to week.

Make no mistake about it, he’s still going to have to earn it week by week by stewarding the team to wins.  If he puts up these stats, and continues to float one to the other team, and any other aspect of the team doesn’t do enough to carry that, he will be back to the bench.

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't understand why Ron had to announce Heinicke as the starter for the rest of the year, make him earn it week to week.

I don't think he did, he said heinicke is our starter and when healthy we'll get wentz ready to back him up but I don't recall him saying anything about the rest of the year.

What was really telling is asked why heinicke, he didn't say because of his elite traits or because we can't bench a guy who's playing so well etc, etc, he said one word, winning!

That was him essentially saying we can't pull a guy when we're winning but I'd bet anything if we play a couple games like the jets did Sunday we'll see a change real fast.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 minutes ago, redskinss said:

but I'd bet anything if we play a couple games like the jets did Sunday we'll see a change real fast.

I’ll give TH credit though, he won’t answer an immediate, matter-of-fact “no” when asked if his inability to do anything on offense was a hinderance to the defense who had given up 3 points in 4 quarters.

 

I never bought into Zach Wilson and for judgmental reasons, such as his life of immense privilege and Disney Channel looks.  But in his pressers he sounds like the spoiled coach’s son after he stinks up the field, only this is the pro’s not Pop Warner.

Edited November 21, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Skinsinparadise]

As for the draft those that are pushing for it, if things keep going on this track, I gather start trying to fall in love with Will Levis.  

 

Maybe Anthony Richardson, but i am thinking he might not enter this draft based on everything I am reading but there is a shot he does.  

 

Hendon Hooker some used to think but him tearing his ACL, coupled with his age, makes that combination somewhat unattractive IMO.

 

Tanner McKee some say could be the next Davis Mills, maybe he creeps into the first round.    I am not enamored personally. 

 

I tried to love Will Levis but have a hard time doing it.  Maybe I keep watching the wrong games but his pocket presence and decision making to me come off very lacking.  Having said that I think Young and Stroud end up going #1 or #2.    So the only obvious prospect to trade up for in the first would likely be Levis.  Based on what I've seen that's cringe worthy if they do that.

 

Anthony Richardson is the only one that intrigues me after Young.  I am guessing he doesn't come out in the draft.  But if he does, his draft stock is hard to predict, I gather it would depend on the predraft process for him.

 

My point is at least for me there is almost nothing that excites me as for QBs in this draft if we end up picking late teens-early 20s.  Granted that's just my opinion but that is coloring my take about the QB position.  I can't really land on a theortically based answer on the draft versus veterans -- it has to be what guys in the draft, what veterans, etc. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

Refreshing to see the QB position treated impartially. 
 

Eliminate these middling over paid QBs. 
Imagine if Wentz had 3 years guaranteed left on  his deal; he’d be starting. Remain lean at the QB spot while hunting for value or the next Mahomes. 
 

Full disclosure, not saying you can’t win paying Kirk, Carr, and Tannehill wild amounts of money, but you often are stuck with them for years (have to bend and manipulate cap), are inconsistent (blame everything around them) and can’t hunt for the next Mahomes because of their unjustified egos.

 

The jig is just about up for this level of QB. Carr’s contract structure (which I was unaware of) cements this fact to me. Teams are done mortgaging their futures on these guys and being held hostage.
 

Flip the script on these guys and return to idea it being a privilege to be a starter for an organization. Washington should be able to get Wentz at Marcus Mariota money next year if they play hard ball. Wentz at $6-8mil is appealing while still drafting a young stud QB. 
 

Maintain competency in the QB room while adding young talent. 
 

Edited November 21, 2022 by wit33

[redskinss]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’ll give TH credit though, he won’t answer an immediate, matter-of-fact “no” when asked if his inability to do anything on offense was a hinderance to the defense who had given up 3 points in 4 quarters.

 

I never bought into Zach Wilson and for judgmental reasons, such as his life of immense privilege and Disney Channel looks.  

That wasn't intended to be a comparison of quarterbacks just situations.

The jets are playing phenomenal defense and have lost 2 out of there last 3 mainly because of dreadful quarterback play and if that happens to us I'd be very surprised if they stuck with heinicke. 

Having said that I agree with you, heinicke is a good guy and a better teammate by light years than Zach wilson.

[Zim489]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This ties into what I’ve been talking about with @Thinking Skins.  This is much more about a Scott Turner than it is TH.

They are actually running the ball worse with Taylor. @Skinsinparadiseand I were talking about that when Wentz first got hurt. Teams will stack the line and force more throws. Our YPA is down. Were just far more committed to to it because we half to be to stand any chance. Thats why the defense is so important. If they fall behind by lets say 10 then the entire plan goes to **** because now taylor HAS to throw, which hes terrible at. 

2 hours ago, max21 said:

I’m sure this has been discussed, but if we go on a run with Taylor, what do you think his hypothetical contract would be after this season? 

IMO dependent on Ron being here. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't understand why Ron had to announce Heinicke as the starter for the rest of the year, make him earn it week to week.

 

Don't worry...he didn't:

 

 

 

[Chris 44]

26 minutes ago, redskinss said:

That wasn't intended to be a comparison of quarterbacks just situations.

The jets are playing phenomenal defense and have lost 2 out of there last 3 mainly because of dreadful quarterback play and if that happens to us I'd be very surprised if they stuck with heinicke. 

Having said that I agree with you, heinicke is a good guy and a better teammate by light years than Zach wilson.

Only caught a quick snippet  yesterday...but didnt Wilson when asked after the game if the Offense needed to pick things up and he replied "no"? Or am I imagining things?

I found the quote. Just as cringe worthy.

 

Q: As an offense though, I mean, you guys are only able to score three points, the defense only lets up three points. Do you feel like you let the defense down at all?

 

 

ZW: No. No.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Chris 44

[zCommander]

4 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Only caught a quick snippet  yesterday...but didnt Wilson when asked after the game if the Offense needed to pick things up and he replied "no"? Or am I imagining things?

 

This is what he said. Yeah like it wasn't his or his offense fault at all.