Next Day Thread: Buffalo vs. Landover Junior Varsity

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I wasn't referring to you. Mostly the know-nothing social media trolls that live and die on fantasy football. My impression of a corner is like an OL. The less you hear their name the better. I think considering the scheme and the lack of any pocket collapses, the fact that he'd been pretty steady says a lot about how he's played. The Giants game, I also don't understand the harsh criticism. Outside of the Slayton TD (which was pretty much a perfect throw) it was a fairly quiet day against him. Fuller now has given up 17 receptions on 20 targets. How is that significantly better than Jackson according to PFF?  He leads the league in PD as well. 

 

I got to rewatch that game more closely but based on some observation on a rewatch, I'd assume its based on receivers getting open on him whether they got the ball or not.

[PartyPosse]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I got to rewatch that game more closely but based on some observation on a rewatch, I'd assume its based on receivers getting open on him whether they got the ball or not.

Which doesn't explain how Fuller's grade is significantly higher considering. The only good play he's made all season was the sack, and that was probably because Jones was looking for Fuller in the secondary to exploit and panicked.

 

 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I got to rewatch that game more closely but based on some observation on a rewatch, I'd assume its based on receivers getting open on him whether they got the ball or not.

 

You know I'm not a big PFF fan but there are plenty if times when their takes overlap with mine and I'm with you here.  The secondary has been getting torched and there is just no way Jackson isn't part of that and that it's all been Juice and Fuller.

 

I was a skeptical voice on Jackson when he was brought in because I do it like AV as an objective and comprehensive measurement.  He was universally touted as an upgrade and that he was one of the league's best man coverage corners but his AV scores did not reflect that at all.  At best, they were average starter/solid rotation player territory with scores of 4, 4, and 6 in his three previous seasons.  I think he might not be that good, or at least not as good as we hoped.

 

AV can be pretty volatile though, maybe especially so for defensive backs.  Look no further than Landon Collins's career stats for proof.  But clearly Jackson hasn't hit the ground running in our system and scheme yet, and we might have to recognize that maybe he's just an average starter at best.

 

I've been thinking about how Del Rio and John Fox were able to achieve such dominance in Denver.  That offense wasn't just complimentary the first two years of their run, it was actually really good and surely that helped the defense find it's legs.  But that third year with Manning when his body had broken down and the defense was just otherworldly good and carried them to a ring, what was the secret?  Basically the same minds and general philosophies in play.  Was it really just about having two Hall of Fame bound edge rushers and two All Pro corners allowing them to win vanilla four man rush match up centric football?  If so, we're not going to be able to replicate that.  Chase and Montez aren't Ware and Miller and Fuller and Jackson definitely aren't Harris and Talib. We need better corners.

 

I'm not in favor of dumping Del Rio yet though.  To me he's one of our only coaches with an actual history of excellence somewhere on his resume, and I think if we give him the talent--not just prospects with potential but honest to god great players--then I think he can get it playing at a top level.  He has done it before.

[WTFforLife]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Our LBers were terribly out of position. I don't think Ron told Thomas to fumble or Heinicke to throw a pick. They played in 25mph wind. There is no conspiracy.

Maybe still does not explain Turners off the wall Offensive play calling. Not calling anything a conspiracy but whatever Turner was smoking he should share

[Rufus T Firefly]

18 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

And the announcers even talked about this rebuild being in the early phases... over and over again. Look, I understand Ron Rivera and co. haven't been here long and quite frankly they deserve some time to get this thing going in the right direction. I'm not one of those kneejerk reaction folks who want everyone fired. Things can be fixed from within and sometimes that means you need some time to right the ship. I understand that as a coach as well.

 

Having said that, and stepping away from this current iteration of Washington football... How many rebuilds has this team endured in the last 30 years? Could it be considered one large one? Or has it been 16 multi-year rebuilds? 

So, to re-state something I've said many times on this board over the years- we have NEVER engaged in a rebuild. 

 

In a rebuild, you have to tear things down, at least a little, accept short term losses while prioritizing the long term, and trying to build something for the future. We haven't done that. Not at any point this century.

 

When you're spending big on Free Agents, spending future draft capital, investing in aging players, holding onto diminishing assets until they leave for zero return, etc, you are not rebuilding. You are trying to win now. And people often discount that because "win now" isn't for a team that's got a shot at really contending. So they think and say "we're not really trying to contend now" so they equate that with "building". It's not. It's trying to win enough in the here and now to keep fans on the hook and keep FO jobs safe. The prefect example was the Alex Smith trade. We traded a good young player and a good draft pick for the right to pay a ton of money to a middle of the pack 34 year old QB. Did the team thing that would help them contend for anything? Doubtful. But they thought it would be enough to stay in the .500 range and in position for a possible lucky playoff berth or two over five years or so. That was the priority and it's not any kind of rebuilding.

 

Last year they had a chance for a really quick, small rebuild. At 1-5 approaching the trade deadline, they had a choice- deal some veterans who won't be part of the long-term for some draft capital, free up extra cap space and take the one down year for a higher draft position, or they could chase a miracle 7-9 playoff berth, They chose the latter. And, for what it's worth, it "worked". But again, it was the opposite of rebuilding. 

 

People, can, and will, defend that approach. And that's fine. We can keep talking about those 7-9 types of seasons building the "culture of winning" that we've been hearing about for two decades. But it's not rebuilding, no matter how many times people want to complain about the "constant state of rebuilding" that we hear about all the time on this board. You can't have one of those if you never actually try to rebuild. 

[RansomthePasserby]

On the plus side we have the same record as the Kansas City Chiefs now. 

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You know I'm not a big PFF fan but there are plenty if times when their takes overlap with mine and I'm with you here.  The secondary has been getting torched and there is just no way Jackson isn't part of that and that it's all been Juice and Fuller.

 

 

The thing that is interesting to me about PFF is even they acknowledge that you got to factor context with their scores.   I am surprised they don't acknolwedge that more considering they themslves aren't a slave to their own ratings.   if you look at their rankings of players for the draft -- you don't always see a super correlation from their PFF ratings to their ranking of players.  So for example, they can have a dude with a 72 rating ranked above a dude with an 85 rating.  And when you listen to the PFF guys interviewed about it, they go well yeah its not just about their scores alone but context.  This dude was playing in this circumstance versus the other dude who had a different circumstance -- often its level of competition they factor.  

 

I like to look at their college scores often more than pros because I don't have access typically to all the college games of prospects I care about. 

 

So where I find my takes to jive with them most of the time isn't so much overall scores but factoring attributes.  I loved Tremble's blocking for example and so did they.  I saw potential with him as a receiver even though his stats didn't indicate that he was much as a receiver -- but their scores backed the same thing.  So sometimes stats can be deceiving or fail to give the whole picture and PFF sometimes can fill that gap.  

 

I've also disagreed with them plenty of times.   But its hard for me to be outright dismissive of their work.  Teams use their metrics for a reason.  I find them useful but IMO you got to have context behind what you are looking at.    And i don't doubt like any metric their scores at times could be wildly off.  But I find more of their scores aren't wildly off from what i see.  Sometimes yes.  But usually, no.

 

38 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

I'm not in favor of dumping Del Rio yet though.  To me he's one of our only coaches with an actual history of excellence somewhere on his resume, and I think if we give him the talent--not just prospects with potential but honest to god great players--then I think he can get it playing at a top level.  He has done it before.

 

Del Rio is the first defensive coach we've had since Gregg Williams who actually had a bunch of top rated defenses on his resume.  We've clamored for a dude like that and most embraced him last year.

 

We start 1-2 and that's enough and he's the problem, time to move on?  Feels like an emotional overreaction to me.    Teams can get smoked.  Heck the mighty Gregg Williams' defense was embarrassed by the Pats who if I recall put up like 50 points against them.  Heck he even had a bad season in that mix, too.   I know not everyone here liked Gregg.  But I think its hard to argue he wasn't the defensive coach we've had with the best reputation under Dan aside from maybe Marvin Lewis.  The Jets defense was bad, Gregg arrived and helped make it top 10.   He did the same here.  Helped the Saints win a SB.  Obviously he had other issues there that brought trouble.  I am not saying Gregg was the be all and end all but Del Rio is probably the biggest name we've had since Gregg.

 

Lets see how they respond from the whopping from Buffalo.  Like you I think the defense will turnaround to some extent.  Will see.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[ExoDus84]

9 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said:

On the plus side we have the same record as the Kansas City Chiefs now. 

 

We're actually much better than the Chiefs, if you think about it. We only lost to the Chargers by 4 points, and they lost by 6.

 

Suckers.

[PartyPosse]

I wonder if we tried to go after Gordon?

[Xameil]

19 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

True but a good QB disguises a lot.

 

Look at how much better the Rams look with Stafford compared to Goff/Wofford last year.

Offense needs to get the ball for the QB to actually be able to do anything.

[Commander Adama]

54 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said:

On the plus side we have the same record as the Kansas City Chiefs now. 

Comparing us to KC is like comparing me to Jason Mamoa.

[FootballZombie]

10 minutes ago, Blue Collar Skins said:

Comparing us to KC is like comparing me to Jason Mamoa.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by FootballZombie

[goskins10]

Some seem to have run with something that I do not think many have said including myself. No one is (or at least no one should) be saying there is nothing wrong with the Offense. And true the Off could bail the D out some and give them more help. 

 

But did anyone really expect the Off to be capable of doing that? The veteran QB who won the TC battle is out. Ok taylor has played decent until yesterday but in fairness in terms of playing time he is still a rookie - and yes that is true. Just being in the league without playing does not make you a 6 yr veteran in terms of playing. You have to take live fire to be prepared for it. The prized FA WR is out. There is no TE after Thomas and he has been somewhat MIA (not really his fault I don't think but still not been there much). So there should never have been an expectation that the O bail the D out very often. Add to that a D that is playing bottom 5 in the league and you have our current disaster. 

 

But there is not much you are going to change on the off. And anything you do is not likely to have nearly as much impact as fixing the Defense. So fix the damn D and then we can talk about the Off. If the D can start holding people to less than 20, and the Off continues to come up short than Ok make wholesale changes. They gave the Chargers 20 - and the off put the team in a position to win. They gave up 29 to NY and the Off did bail them out. Yesterday the Off was behind so much so fast - yes they helped but seriously, the D was like a sieve. 

 

The ceiling on this Off is pretty low where the ceiling for the D should be pretty high. Fix the D then let's see what we can do to improve the Off to compliment. 

[BleedBNG]

Watching Allen play was like watching Herbert all over again. Quick decisive passes on target.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

The giants are probably the second worst team in the nfl this season and we barely beat them and needed a lot of help from the refs to do if. But at least we ain’t the jets.

[max21]

As a defense how do you even plan for an offense that gets rid of the ball quick? The DL needs another second to get to the QB but they can’t if the LB are giving up everything underneath. I want to cry watching our linebackers 

[Leonard Washington]

1 hour ago, BleedBNG said:

Watching Allen play was like watching Herbert all over again. Quick decisive passes on target.

Herbert was making more impressive throws Into tight windows. Allen’s guys were wide open all day. 

[KDawg]

I want to add: I’m tired of seeing Chase Young in zone blitzes.

 

I’m also curious if there’s more to the D stinking than we as a fan base are privy to.

[dyst]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I want to add: I’m tired of seeing Chase Young in zone blitzes.

 

I’m also curious if there’s more to the D stinking than we as a fan base are privy to.

Del Rio is trying to back-stab Rivera so he can take the throne.

[cakmoney61]

11 hours ago, srtman04 said:

 

This is NOT the year to be tanking for a QB.   All of this upcoming draft class is awful and would be a waste of a first round pick.  

That's the consensus, but someone or two may prove to be a franchise QB.  To be clear, I'm not talking about tanking.  Their schedule is so tough that tanking won't be necessary.

[Rufus T Firefly]

58 minutes ago, dyst said:

Del Rio is trying to back-stab Rivera so he can take the throne.

Come on, you think they would fire Rivera and hire the Coordinator of an underperforming defense? Do you think our owner is some kind of irredeemable idiot or someth..... never mind. 

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, max21 said:

As a defense how do you even plan for an offense that gets rid of the ball quick? The DL needs another second to get to the QB but they can’t if the LB are giving up everything underneath. I want to cry watching our linebackers 

Play tight press man and jam the receivers to throw off the timing. Hard to throw quick when the DB is already in their face.

 

The reason we don't is because Del Rio is afraid the DBs will get roasted downfield, but we're already giving up big plays anyway so what's the risk?

[bakedtater1]

4 hours ago, RansomthePasserby said:

On the plus side we have the same record as the Kansas City Chiefs now.

1 and 0 in the division and both losses are out of conference losses..idk..haha

Edited September 28, 2021 by bakedtater1

[Warhead36]

Somehow we're still the 2nd best team in our division. Good lord the NFC East stinks outside of Dallas

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, max21 said:

As a defense how do you even plan for an offense that gets rid of the ball quick? The DL needs another second to get to the QB but they can’t if the LB are giving up everything underneath. I want to cry watching our linebackers 

 

You stop playing so much zone and press the receivers off the line to disrupt their routes. Also, you have better LBs who can react to the ball faster so those over the middle plays that everyone keeps hitting on us are not so wide ****ing open. And then hit the **** out of people if they do complete it. Our Ss, and sorry that includes Curl right now, look like they are afraid to tackle anyone. Bring the heat - do it legally, but bring it. Other teams find a way to lay the lumbar and do it legally. It can be done just needs to be coached. I am sure some of the coaches in here can give you better details and more options but those cannot hurt.