Next Day Thread: Buffalo vs. Landover Junior Varsity

[skinny21]

Crazy that we all agree Collins has been pretty crap, but he’s not even on the list of ☹️ (Not a knock on the rankings @KDawg).  Talk about a (yet another) sign of how bad this D has played…

 

I 100% understand why people are lashing out at Del Rio.  I mean, when things are this bad, and consistently so, you have to look at coaching as well as personnel.

With that said, I can’t agree with comments like:

“He needs to blitz more” - we were leading the league in blitzing prior to this game (not to mention Allen is dangerous against the blitz).

“He needs to make adjustments” - last year we were impressed with his halftime adjustments.  This year, he’s tried switching between zone, man, press man, blitzing, rushing 4, dropping DEs, and so on.

“Their needs to be accountability” - Curl and Davis got significantly more snaps this game.

“He’s running vanilla schemes” - this is a fair point, but why is he?  I don’t think he’s been known as a guy to run vanilla schemes.

“He’s a dinosaur and the league has left him behind” - this feels a bit knee jerk as last year the D was producing and we were happy to have him.  Yes, we had issues against the better offenses, but we also didn’t have viable backers, a truly viable FS or a good slot corner… let alone an offense that gave the D much help.

 

I still maintain the root cause for the defensive drop off comes down to 3 things

Talent - Mainly the backers.  Others, like Fuller and Collins are (IMO) struggling more due to fit.

Personnel - Del Rio got caught trying to switch from zone to man and it appears he now doesn’t have the back 7 to execute (hell, even imitate) either.  Stemming from this, he has to simplify things because of the learning curve of guys trying to know/execute both.

Over confidence - This group played well against inferior offenses last year, and this offseason practiced against our 2 qbs (one learning an offense that was foreign to him - vs a variation of one he already knew - and one that was trying to play as a pocket passer - which he isn’t, not very talented tackles, and our (outside of Terry and Logan*) lackluster receiving corp.  Along with that over confidence and subsequent poor play, comes the thinking that guys just need to try harder.  They’re playing tight and aggressive instead of loose and instinctively.

 

 

* I think there’s a good reason Logan kept catching tds in practice

Frankly, I’ve written off this year already, but I will point out a minuscule glimmer of hope for this season.  Some guys are getting baptized in the fire, and the season may come down to our divisional games bunched at the end.  It’s possible that with some tweaking at safety and slot corner and St Juste and Davis turning into viable starters (particularly in a man coverage scheme), the D could get on the same page and be much improved, at least relatively speaking.  Couple that with an offense with Samuel joining the ranks, Cosmi improving, and Heinicke gaining experience (or Fitz returning) and maybe, just maybe, we could be challenging for the division again.  I’m not holding my breath though, lol.  Far better chance this thing goes off the rails and into the ravine.

[wit33]

47 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Every team in the league has talent.  And a lot of times, the teams looking for coaches have a good draft pick coming up.  

 

No other team offers the package deal of - Dan Snyder as your boss, a dump for a stadium, headquarters, and facilities, a once historically notable fanbase that doesn't care anymore.

 

Obviously, there are only but so many jobs available.  But you're asking for both a simp like Dan to identify a young, brilliant mind to coach his team & for that young, brilliant mind to have no other options at their disposal.

This logic has repeatedly been proven wrong. The better organizations are not going to hire power hungry big named coaches. It’s about money and power, Dan and other poor organizations will continue to provide both to lure candidates over. 
 

The Jags, Raiders, Washington were/are terrible all around, but lured Meyer, Gruden, and Rivera with power and money. 

[Koolblue13]

I figured we'd be 1-2 at this point. The defense will come around I think. Hopefully when Fitz and Curtis come back the offense will start putting some points up and we can get our feet back under us.

[Idaho fan]

19 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

And to me it feels like you're panicking on the defense while ignoring the elephant in the room that is the league's worst offense.

We can all agree both stink.  

However, right now I think if you lined up our Offense against our Defense I think the offense gets the better of the D.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

This logic has repeatedly been proven wrong. The better organizations are not going to hire power hungry big named coaches. It’s about money and power, Dan and other poor organizations will continue to provide both to lure candidates over. 
 

The Jags, Raiders, Washington were/are terrible all around, but lured Meyer, Gruden, and Rivera with power and money. 

I'm not exactly sure what logic you are referring to that has been proven wrong.  In my post prior to the one you quoted, I made it a point to reference that we only got Ron because of the power Dan was willing to provide him.  

 

I don't consider Meyer, Gruden or Rivera to be highly coveted, up and coming, coaching candidates.  All are retreads barring Meyer but I think his long college coaching career counts.  Sure there was some media hype behind guys like Meyer and Gruden because of their high profiles.  I don't recall Ron's firing prompting major interest in his services.

 

What I think No Nonsense was referring to, were guys like McVay, LaFleur, Kyle S.  Young up and comers, seen as brilliant football minds.  Those are the guys I think are most difficult for a guy like Dan to lure to Washington, because A. Dan would have to be able to identify up and coming talent and B. that up and coming talent would have to be attracted to what we have to offer.  I don't see A or B being likely.

[zCommander]

Some stats/points from yesterday: 

 

OFFENSE

Quarterback Taylor Heinicke completed 14-of-24 passes for 212 passing yards, two touchdowns and two interceptions. He also rushed eight times for 21 yards and a touchdown.

Heinicke is the first Washington QB to rush for a touchdown and throw a touchdown in a single-game since Case Keenum accomplished the feat in Week 16 of the 2019 NFL season.

 

Wide receiver Terry McLaurin finished the contest with four receptions for 62 yards (15.5 avg.).

 

Tight end Logan Thomas notched four receptions for 42 yards and a touchdown.

 

Running back Antonio Gibson finished the contest with 12 rushes for 31 yards, one reception for 73 yards, and a receiving touchdown.

Gibson's touchdown reception was the second-longest touchdown reception by a running back in Washington history. The longest in Washington history was a 78-yard touchdown reception by RB Matt Jones against the New Orleans Saints in 2015.

Gibson's touchdown reception was the longest touchdown reception by a Washington player since WR Terry McLaurin had a 75-yard touchdown reception vs. the Philadelphia Eagles in Week 1 of the 2019 season.

Gibson's reception was the fourth-longest reception by a running back in Washington history, trailing Matt Jones (78-yard reception vs. NO in 2015), Clinton Portis (74-yard reception vs. Houston in 2006) and Chris Thompson (74-yard reception vs. Oakland in 2017).

RB Antonio Gibson "We Gotta Go To Work This Week" | Post Game Press Conference

 

DEFENSE

Linebacker Cole Holcomb recorded a team-high and career-high 14 tackles (10 solo) and one tackle for a loss.

Cornerback Kendall Fuller registered 10 tackles (7 solo).

Cornerback Benjamin St-Juste finished with seven tackles (5 solo) and a pass defensed.

Defensive tackle Daron Payne notched two tackles (one solo) and two quarterback hits.

CB Kendall Fuller "Everybody Has To Amp It Up Even More" | Post Game Press Conference

 

SPECIAL TEAMS

Kicker Dustin Hopkins recovered his own kickoff for the first time in his career and made all three extra points he attempted.

Punter Tress Way finished the game with five punts for 235 yards (47.0 avg.) and pinned one of his punts inside the 20-yard line.

[zCommander]

 

 

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

He would have gone 5 carries for 3 yards. Patterson is better.

 

Meh.

Barber had 140+ more yards than Patterson this week.

 

I like J, but he does not provide anything that the guys above him on the depth chart don't do so much better. Even in a sans Samuel world Patterson is not currently getting touches, and if the staff does not trust him to even give Gibby or McK a blow, then he can do his job just as effectively from the practice squad. As to this point he is clearly not needed to split reps until Gibby or McK go inactive.

 

At least a big body back would provide something different and we wouldn't have to rely on TH for those clutch short yardage carries. They may even be willing to play a big body back if they had one active, like they did all of last year.

 

Lack of an alternate power back is severely limiting this team right now, and its adding up damage on the people you don't want it on. We are in dire need of a big boy. It does not really even matter who at this point.

Edited September 27, 2021 by FootballZombie

[Chris 44]

19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I figured we'd be 1-2 at this point. The defense will come around I think. Hopefully when Fitz and Curtis come back the offense will start putting some points up and we can get our feet back under us.

Here's my glass half full take; we have another 9 games for the defense and offense to figure things out before the 5 division games (already won one) and be able to make a push for the division. If its a baptism by fire then as long as the wheels haven't completely fallen off and guys haven't given up, all is not lost on  the season. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I don't consider Meyer, Gruden or Rivera to be highly coveted, up and coming, coaching candidates.  All are retreads barring Meyer but I think his long college coaching career counts.  Sure there was some media hype behind guys like Meyer and Gruden because of their high profiles.  I don't recall Ron's firing prompting major interest in his services.

 

What I think No Nonsense was referring to, were guys like McVay, LaFleur, Kyle S.  Young up and comers, seen as brilliant football minds.  Those are the guys I think are most difficult for a guy like Dan to lure to Washington, because A. Dan would have to be able to identify up and coming talent and B. that up and coming talent would have to be attracted to what we have to offer.  I don't see A or B being likely.

 

Most teams have new stadiums or relatively new stadiums.  Much nicer facilities.  And normal owners.  This place like I said is the Siberia for coaching prospects for more reasons than one. 

 

McVay going to the Rams is like staying at the Ritz.  A spanking new stadium.  Beautiful facilities.  A normal and supportive owner.

 

We are the equivalent of staying in some crazy dudes basement.  Instead of being greeted with champange, they get juice boxes.    Everything 2nd class.  And like it or not you have to interact a lot with that crazy neighbor.

 

If i am staying at that basement instead of some place nice, I'd want every frill I could think of to make up for it, if I had other options.  The Raiders at their low point, still wasn't as bad as here.  But the Raiders weren't going to get a big name coach without offering something outrageous.  We sadly are in that same boat.  And that would go double if we canned Rivera.  And you are right, its not even going for a big get but a decent rep coach.   The big gets I think are totally out of reach here no matter what's offered. 

 

If the idea is lets bring a coach that allows Dan to come out of his closest again then its likely a coach ala a Zorn where you are betting on a wildcard -- yeah you never know this time it could work but considering the history here my money wouldn't be on Dan finding that diamond in the rough coach.  I guess like Fassel who was almost hired here we can find a retread who has no interest from other teams around the league to be a HC like a Herm Edwards, etc. 

 

Personally i am far from out on Rivera but even if I were, I'd hang on with him for some time.  The fallout from firing Rivera so fast from an organization and owner who is seen as a clown show would be to revive the clown show narrartive in likely an even bigger way than what existed when Rivera arrived.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Chris 44 said:

Here's my glass half full take; we have another 9 games for the defense and offense to figure things out before the 5 division games (already won one) and be able to make a push for the division. If its a baptism by fire then as long as the wheels haven't completely fallen off and guys haven't given up, all is not lost on  the season. 

Yep, it's brutal, but if we can be at .500 before that final 5 game stretch it could come together well for us.

[wit33]

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not exactly sure what logic you are referring to that has been proven wrong.  In my post prior to the one you quoted, I made it a point to reference that we only got Ron because of the power Dan was willing to provide him.  
 

 

My apologies, I thought you were saying Washington wouldn’t be able to attract coaching talent. It appears your point was Dans ability to discover or identify young and upcoming talent. I would agree, that has yet to take place i his tenure as owner. 
 

Young and upcoming talent will take any and all opportunities, but can you lock in on the right ones and provide them stability and structure around them. Hasn’t been done here. 

 

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I don't consider Meyer, Gruden or Rivera to be highly coveted, up and coming, coaching candidates.  All are retreads barring Meyer but I think his long college coaching career counts.  Sure there was some media hype behind guys like Meyer and Gruden because of their high profiles.  I don't recall Ron's firing prompting major interest in his services.

 

We disagree that these guy’s weren’t coveted, sure, Meyer and Gruden more so than Rivera. Rivera would’ve landed elsewhere. 

 

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

What I think No Nonsense was referring to, were guys like McVay, LaFleur, Kyle S.  Young up and comers, seen as brilliant football minds.  Those are the guys I think are most difficult for a guy like Dan to lure to Washington, because A. Dan would have to be able to identify up and coming talent and B. that up and coming talent would have to be attracted to what we have to offer.  I don't see A or B being likely.

Agreed.
 

Though, I’d take Lafleur out of that mix with more to prove. McCarthy managed to win a SB with Rodgers. Mccvay and Kyle I agree are brilliant from my fan view. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

We disagree that these guy’s weren’t coveted, sure, Meyer and Gruden more so than Rivera. Rivera would’ve landed elsewhere. 

My point wasn't that Ron wouldn't get another NFL coaching gig.  Just that when he was let go, he wasn't automatically at the top of every coach needy teams wish list.  I like Ron and think he's the absolute best possible option that Dan was capable of hiring.  Both Meyer and Gruden are different in that they weren't looking for head coach work.  Both had other high profile jobs, so in order to lure them away - any team would have to offer them the world.  Ron wouldn't get what he got here at either Jacksonville or Oakland.

[757SeanTaylor21]

We're more looking like the panthers that got Ron fired than the panthers that went to the super bowl

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

PFF ratings after all three games

 

 

[Wildbunny]

Those quotes from Bullock are scary.

 

If our guys cannot understand to cover the 10 feet of grass around them, just send them packing elsewhere, they're just stealing money.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

What's scary are these secondary miscommunication and confusion issues travel from regime to regime, with entirely different players.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What's scary are these secondary miscommunication and confusion issues travel from regime to regime, with entirely different players.

 

I recall having a really good view of London Fletcher one game, in was versus the Giants in NY, it was amazing how often he was correcting the positioning of players before the snap.  A good MLB = QB of the defense.  

 

He was the last great one we've had at that spot.    I am not saying a smart-good MLB is the be all and end all but it helps.  And having jags at that spot is something that has carried from defense to defense since London Fletcher's retirement.   If you guys recall our top defense fell off the cliff the season when the let Antonio Pierce go and replaced him with Lemar Marshall.

 

Mason Foster, Will Compton, Zach Brown (known not to be the brightest dude), Jon Bostic, etc.  Not exactly murderers row.

 

If there is another spot that is assocated with QBing the defense aside from MLB that often is FS.  And we've had mostly a series of clowns at that spot, too.

 

If we had a real smart player at FS like an Ed Reed, or Eric Weddle, etc that could help.  But more so IMO MLB.  I recall Strahan among others on the Giants talking about how much Pierce meant to thier defense because he would adjust the players who weren't aligned right before the play along with helping the defense diagnose what's coming. 

 

When Rivera said this defense needs to find its Luke Kuechly I think he means it beyond his play.  The dude was known as super sharp and would help the whole defense by QBing it. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

I know some here can get salty about PFF grades. I get it.  I've challenged their grades some especially on draft prospects.  But at the same time, there are often close to on the money on much of what they do.  I doubt all the NFL teams subscribe to them for no reason, so they are often IMO on the money but far from perfect.  I think the key is to factor context when looking at their grades since they often don't factor context.

 

Considering their 30 score for Jon Bostic, PFF shares our frustration about his play.   I've heard about how he studies and is smart.  I don't though see him direct the defense ala London Fletcher as far as being vocal and he's clearly nowhere near the stud London Fletcher was.  Plus how can you direct the defense when you yourself are often out of position?

 

Be interesting to see if Rivera makes a move here.  Rivera flat out called Bostic out for poor play last season but then said after the season he thought he rebounded in the last few games.  I guess the roll of the dice was about whether Bostic turned a corner.  But apparently he hasn't.

 

It pains me that some of the insiders who cover the team said they really liked Milano in FA but Milano gave the Bills a hometown discount to stay there.  He is having a killer season so far. 

 

 

 

 

Going deeper.  Don't want to jinx Payne  but it looks like he might finally have that breakout season that hasn't happened thus far as a pass rusher. 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[PartyPosse]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

PFF ratings after all three games

 

 

Seeing Fuller's 65 is all I need to know about the credibility of PFF

[ExoDus84]

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

And to me it feels like you're panicking on the defense while ignoring the elephant in the room that is the league's worst offense.

 

Wut?

 

Our offense is currently ranked 18th in yards, and 21st in points per game. Kinda bad, but nowhere near "league's worst offense".

 

Defense is 31st in YPG allowed and 29th in PPG allowed, and absolute dead last in 3rd down % allowed.

 

I think "panicking on the defense" at this point is justified. They were supposed to carry this team, and they're currently carrying us directly towards a top 5 draft pick.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by ExoDus84

[FootballZombie]

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A good MLB = QB of the defense.  

 

No way to know, but how much of that is the expansion of Davis' role and the diminishing of Bostic's?

Even if Davis individual play is much better, its hard not to notice the increasing lack of misplays when Bostic's snaps are reduced and how our D looks worse in each successive game.

 

 

These might just be lumps we have to take as Davis learns the game a bit more.

[zCommander]

So far our D right now.

 

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

No way to know, but how much of that is the expansion of Davis' role and the diminishing of Bostic's?

Even if Davis individual play is much better, its hard not to notice the increasing lack of misplays when Bostic's snaps are reduced and how our D looks worse in each successive game.

 

 

These might just be lumps we have to take as Davis learns the game a bit more.

I just posted this in one of the defense threads, but it's actually Holcomb that is the one getting the plays, not Bostic. Surprising. I thought that was his one redeeming thing.

 

Washington turned to Holcomb as a starter during his rookie season and kept him in that role on a higher-profile 2020 defense. The recently renamed team rocketed from 27th to fourth on defense from 2019 to 2020, and Holcomb will be asked to play a lot again this season -- for a team with increased expectations. The ex-North Carolina Tar Heel may end up relinquishing green-dot responsibilities at some point in the near future, with Washington drafting inside linebacker Jamin Davis in the first round. But for now, the signal-calling responsibility is on the elder off-ball 'backer.