Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

TH beat Tom Brady this season and went toe to toe with him in the playoffs in his 1st ever NFL start. To judge him and say he's not the answer given what this team has gone through is unfair in my opinion.

And you would be wrong, unfortunately.  I understand you said “in your opinion” and by their very nature opinions can’t really be wrong, but the fact of the matter is TH is at best a backup QB in the NFL.  
 

The NFL has figured him out, and figured out what Scott Turner had to do in order to make him successful.  There is one way TH can succeed: run the snot out of the ball (successfully), get into 3rd and manageable a lot, convert on a high percentage of third downs, dominate TOP, snd get. Few stops on defense.  And most of the time if all of that works, you can eek out a 17-15 type game.

 

The problem is since teams know this, they’re going to stack the box, take away the immediate throws and force TH to attempt throws he does not have the capability to make.  Which results in incompletes and turnovers. 
 

Sure, if we had the hogs and Riggo and a few HOF receivers and TEs, maybe he could be adequate for a period of time.  But he just doesn’t have the physical tools to be able to be a long term starter in the NFL. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

TH beat Tom Brady this season and went toe to toe with him in the playoffs in his 1st ever NFL start. To judge him and say he's not the answer given what this team has gone through is unfair in my opinion. Look at his supporting cast and his defense and ask what QB in the league could win with what TH has been given? For those of you who want to move on from TH I'm with you but I don't know where you're gonna find something much better. It takes an entire roster to win...period. Look across the league at the recent1st round QB picks and it's not much better anywhere else. How would the kid from the Jets do with this WFT? How bout Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Mack Jones or any of the others? 

Fact is, injuries and COVID killed our season among some other things. We were on a roll going into the Dallas game and TH was a big part of that but COVID, injuries and the brutal short week schedule killed us. 

BTW, we got nothing out of Curtis Samuel, we had 1 proven TE on the roster and he got hurt after 2 weeks, our 1st round pick has struggled all season, our starting stud, overpaid safety was so bad he had to be moved to LB, and our stud DE, Chase Young was lost for the season. Gibson fumbled the ball in many key spots. The defense couldn't stop a high school team for long stretches of the season. 

Regardless of what you think about TH, what QB could've overcome everything this team went through this season? TH was asked to do more than anyone in his position should've been asked to do given his inexperience in the league....he may not be our future but he was dealt a crap-ass hand in a lot of ways. 

 

What I hear in my head when reading this:

 

*Sound of adults talking in Peanuts* *Sound of adults talking in Peanuts*    "Nothing is Taylor Heinicke's fault!"   *Sound of adults talking in Peanuts* *Sound of adults talking in Peanuts*

 

He still has a couple of games to go, but I'm pretty certain thus far Heinicke has shown himself to be a quality backup and/or a mid-low tier starter.

 

And of course here comes the same old dead horse being beaten within an inch of its life. Heinicke did not beat Brady. He beat the TB defense. Otherwise, by that logic, Taysom Hill beat Tom Brady and we should immediatley sign him.

Edited December 30, 2021 by mistertim

[FootballZombie]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Otherwise, by that logic, Taysom Hill beat Tom Brady and we should immediatley sign him.

 

And here I thought Hill looked incredible coming off the edge while playing the passing lane while single-handedly leading the D to a Tom Brady shutout.

 

Its a nice change of pace having all these QBs on peanut sized contracts as opposed to the Smith albatross. It makes maneuvering and even holding onto guys so much easier and feasible.

[Est.1974]

7 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

he may not be our future but he was dealt a crap-ass hand in a lot of ways

I’m not sure he’ll see it that way. We effectively dragged him off the football scrap heap not too long ago. I think he’ll be more than happy with the hand he’s been dealt.

 

Bottom line, he’s simply not good enough as a #1 QB but incredibly valuable on the roster as a back-up.

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I’m not sure he’ll see it that way. We effectively dragged him off the football scrap heap not too long ago. I think he’ll be more than happy with the hand he’s been dealt.

 

Bottom line, he’s simply not good enough as a #1 QB but incredibly valuable on the roster as a back-up.

 

Yeah if I went from sleeping on my sisters couch one day to literally being a millionaire a few weeks later I probably wouldn't walk around ****ing about my unfortunate lot in life (or football).

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Make no mistake about it, Heineke is still living the dream and I can't imagine he's having second thoughts about any of this.  I honestly think there are folks here who think more highly of his abilities than he does of himself.

[Darrell Green Fan]

12 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

TH beat Tom Brady this season and went toe to toe with him in the playoffs in his 1st ever NFL start. To judge him and say he's not the answer given what this team has gone through is unfair in my opinion. Look at his supporting cast and his defense and ask what QB in the league could win with what TH has been given? For those of you who want to move on from TH I'm with you but I don't know where you're gonna find something much better. It takes an entire roster to win...period. Look across the league at the recent1st round QB picks and it's not much better anywhere else. How would the kid from the Jets do with this WFT? How bout Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Mack Jones or any of the others? 

Fact is, injuries and COVID killed our season among some other things. We were on a roll going into the Dallas game and TH was a big part of that but COVID, injuries and the brutal short week schedule killed us. 

BTW, we got nothing out of Curtis Samuel, we had 1 proven TE on the roster and he got hurt after 2 weeks, our 1st round pick has struggled all season, our starting stud, overpaid safety was so bad he had to be moved to LB, and our stud DE, Chase Young was lost for the season. Gibson fumbled the ball in many key spots. The defense couldn't stop a high school team for long stretches of the season. 

Regardless of what you think about TH, what QB could've overcome everything this team went through this season? TH was asked to do more than anyone in his position should've been asked to do given his inexperience in the league....he may not be our future but he was dealt a crap-ass hand in a lot of ways. 

 

The last of the TH defenders speaking up. Cool.

 

Look man we were all impressed with TH in that playoff game.  The point was always that this was one game and the NFL road is littered with QB who came out of nowhere and flashed for a game or 4.  Garnew Minchew played as well or better than Heinke for the first month in Jacksonville, after Luck bailed unexpectedly Brissett actually looked good for the first 4-5 games. But the truth always comes out.

 

The evidence that Taylor is not the answer is overwhelming at this point.   I personally believe you can make up for the lack of arm strength but only with precise accuracy. Sorry Taylor just does not have the accuracy to make up for his limitations and it's not even close. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The last of the TH defenders speaking up. Cool.

Has anybody heard from Sabah who calls into all the radio shows and emails Galdi?

 

She wanted to sign him to a $10-15M a year contact a month ago and has been screaming it’s not his fault, everybody else is to blame.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Has anybody heard from Sabah who calls into all the radio shows and emails Galdi?

 

She wanted to sign him to a $10-15M a year contact a month ago and has been screaming it’s not his fault, everybody else is to blame.  

I try not to.  They give her a lot of time on 980 on a bunch of the shows.  She really tries hard to come across as knowledgeable but ummmm, she leaves a lot to be desired in that category.  They really play her up though like she's dropping wisdom on the listeners.

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Has anybody heard from Sabah who calls into all the radio shows and emails Galdi?

 

She wanted to sign him to a $10-15M a year contact a month ago and has been screaming it’s not his fault, everybody else is to blame.  

 

Those same numbers were pushed by a few people in here too. "Get him locked up now! $10-15 million per year will be a steal!"

[Mooka]

11 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

And here I thought Hill looked incredible coming off the edge while playing the passing lane while single-handedly leading the D to a Tom Brady shutout.

 

Its a nice change of pace having all these QBs on peanut sized contracts as opposed to the Smith albatross. It makes maneuvering and even holding onto guys so much easier and feasible.

 

Taysom Hill is balling out this year IMO.

 

And if he's the starter next season his hybrid contract gets him paid starting QB money. 

 

Even a guy like Hill doesn't come cheap in the NFL.

[skinny21]

12 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And you would be wrong, unfortunately.  I understand you said “in your opinion” and by their very nature opinions can’t really be wrong, but the fact of the matter is TH is at best a backup QB in the NFL.  
 

The NFL has figured him out, and figured out what Scott Turner had to do in order to make him successful.  There is one way TH can succeed: run the snot out of the ball (successfully), get into 3rd and manageable a lot, convert on a high percentage of third downs, dominate TOP, snd get. Few stops on defense.  And most of the time if all of that works, you can eek out a 17-15 type game.

 

The problem is since teams know this, they’re going to stack the box, take away the immediate throws and force TH to attempt throws he does not have the capability to make.  Which results in incompletes and turnovers. 
 

Sure, if we had the hogs and Riggo and a few HOF receivers and TEs, maybe he could be adequate for a period of time.  But he just doesn’t have the physical tools to be able to be a long term starter in the NFL. 

To be fair, 1) TH showed he can beat bad teams without that formula (NYG/ATL), and 2) the ‘teams have figured him out’ coincides with him losing the second of his top 2 weapons (McKissick, Thomas is the other) and playing behind a 4th string center (and Charles).  Made it a lot easier to stack the box to stuff the run and get pressure up the middle.  That’s not to say you’re wrong, just that those are some big caveats to that theory.  He’s obviously a very inconsistent and limited qb… but it’s not as if the 6 wins were with anything remotely close to a HOF supporting cast.

 

IMO, while I think Heinicke showed he can be a starting level qb, he’s closer to the level of rookies (who have upside Heinicke does not) and backups forced into action than legitimate (but non elite) qbs.  I think his legs and intangibles lift him to roughly to the level of Brisset/Tyrod Taylor/Nick Foles/etc.  Those guys got a chance at a bigger contract because they don’t have the same arm limitation of course.  Heinicke, understandably, won’t get that chance.

 

 

[kingdaddy]

9 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

The last of the TH defenders speaking up. Cool.

 

Look man we were all impressed with TH in that playoff game.  The point was always that this was one game and the NFL road is littered with QB who came out of nowhere and flashed for a game or 4.  Garnew Minchew played as well or better than Heinke for the first month in Jacksonville, after Luck bailed unexpectedly Brissett actually looked good for the first 4-5 games. But the truth always comes out.

 

The evidence that Taylor is not the answer is overwhelming at this point.   I personally believe you can make up for the lack of arm strength but only with precise accuracy. Sorry Taylor just does not have the accuracy to make up for his limitations and it's not even close. 

I have not said that TH is the answer at QB, that remains to be seen for when we have more of a complete roster with less injuries/COVID issues. However, there is plenty of blame to go around from top to bottom. TH helped this team stay in contention into December and then the wheels fell off of the entire franchise. 

Two weeks ago ex-Eagles coach Doug Pedersen was interviewed and he talked about how much it takes from management, coaches, trainers, players and several other facets of a team to win a Super Bowl. So much has to go right, including your schedule and opponents situations. The Eagles won that SB because of the overall team chemistry they had and he pointed out much more that what players were on the field. All I'm trying to say is that this team better get better in many more areas or it doesn't matter who the QB is. 

I'm too smart to declare TH the future QB of this team but I know he's not to blame for how the team fell apart. The defense, kicker, Gibson, injuries and COVID all went against TH in his bid to be the future QB. I'm sure the coaches realize that just as much as they realize his deficiencies and their need to keep searching while trying to coach him up.

[NoCalMike]

I remember one of the early criticisms of Montana being drafted was his lack of NFL caliber arm, and while his strength & velocity was nowhere near the likes of some of his peers such as Elway, Marino, Kelly....go back and watch some of his highlights in his prime and even his arm was above Heinicke's.  Bill Walsh did help his career out by creating the WCO, but he still did throw deep balls and they weren't floating wobblers.  He could also deliver the ball in front of the receivers so they caught it in in stride, not having to stop and make catches flat-footed or backwards across their body.

 

Should Heinicke be criticized for not being Montana? No, of course not, but I am just using the comparison as an example of what other NFL starting QBs with lesser arms are still capable of doing out there versus what we have seen from Heinicke. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

11 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I have not said that TH is the answer at QB, that remains to be seen for when we have more of a complete roster with less injuries/COVID issues. However, there is plenty of blame to go around from top to bottom. TH helped this team stay in contention into December and then the wheels fell off of the entire franchise. 

Two weeks ago ex-Eagles coach Doug Pedersen was interviewed and he talked about how much it takes from management, coaches, trainers, players and several other facets of a team to win a Super Bowl. So much has to go right, including your schedule and opponents situations. The Eagles won that SB because of the overall team chemistry they had and he pointed out much more that what players were on the field. All I'm trying to say is that this team better get better in many more areas or it doesn't matter who the QB is. 

I'm too smart to declare TH the future QB of this team but I know he's not to blame for how the team fell apart. The defense, kicker, Gibson, injuries and COVID all went against TH in his bid to be the future QB. I'm sure the coaches realize that just as much as they realize his deficiencies and their need to keep searching while trying to coach him up.

I don’t think anyone believes the season derailed solely because of Heineke.  I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.  Even if we stayed healthy and made the playoffs, I’d still be firm on drafting or acquiring a franchise QB for Heineke to play behind.

Edited December 31, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[TK]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:14 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Can't do great things with basic people, right?

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome
Double post

[skinny21]

12 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t think anyone believes the season derailed solely because of Heineke.  I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.  Even if we stayed healthy and made the playoffs, I’d still be firm on drafting or acquiring a franchise QB for Heineke to play behind.

Sure, no one has blamed Heinicke solely, but when any other factors are mentioned they’re often written off as “excuses”.  He needs HOF talent to succeed.  He needs a good run game and defense to win games.  He can only lead scoring drives if every play goes right.  And so on.  From my perspective, it’s the the other side of the coin from “we need to lock him up to a LTD” - they both come across as extreme positions.  Again, from my perspective it’s fine to feel like he’s too limited to be our starter.  It’s fine to criticize his play.  It’s fair to think a better qb gets us into the playoffs, etc.  But it’s also fair to think (up until the first Dallas game) he was roughly a top 20 qb that was put into a disadvantageous position.  To think that Dallas was a horrible matchup for our depleted roster, to think that the loss of Thomas, McKissick and constant oline changes/injuries affected his play.  To think a better back than Gibson could have helped.  To think if the defense had started the season better or if Turner didn’t lean so heavily on TH early on, we might have won a couple/few more games.  

I tend to believe that if the roster had stayed mostly healthy (or gotten healthy like Dallas’ roster), we would have had a good chance at making the playoffs and even advancing, even if I also believe TH would have been one of the weaker links had that happened.  We really need better qb play though.  Someone who makes better decisions under pressure, who can take advantage of McLaurin, who can stretch the field to help open up the run game, who can overcome injuries a bit better, someone who can win shootouts against better teams (TH did, but against NYG/ATL), etc.  At the same time, we also need to improve the roster and get some better injury luck (as well as improve our depth in some areas).

[Renegade7]

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Renegade7

[tomwvr]

23 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I remember one of the early criticisms of Montana being drafted was his lack of NFL caliber arm, and while his strength & velocity was nowhere near the likes of some of his peers such as Elway, Marino, Kelly....go back and watch some of his highlights in his prime and even his arm was above Heinicke's.  Bill Walsh did help his career out by creating the WCO, but he still did throw deep balls and they weren't floating wobblers.  He could also deliver the ball in front of the receivers so they caught it in in stride, not having to stop and make catches flat-footed or backwards across their body.

 

Should Heinicke be criticized for not being Montana? No, of course not, but I am just using the comparison as an example of what other NFL starting QBs with lesser arms are still capable of doing out there versus what we have seen from Heinicke. 

Heinicke has done better then any other backup in the nfl would have done in the same situation. 
I agree he is probably not the long term answer, but this years draft is so poor on qbs. It’s almost worth it to go one more season with him at backup and spot starter (if he plays well the last two weeks). 
 

i can’t think of any other back up that could have played the whole season like he did.

 

and the crazy thing is he can have a game where he can play at an insane level (both good and bad) his highs are really high and his lows are awful.

 

 

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

Taylor is backup that if he has to fill in the starter role; you don’t want that more than 3-4 games.

 

He can have a long backup career if he wants.

[Bacon]

Look, TH is not our future franchise QB, but we need to keep him around and get him coached up because no matter who we get to be our starter, they are going to suffer a terrible, season-ending injury. Not sure if it's the turf or what, but it's a given. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Bacon

[Silvernon]

2 hours ago, Bacon said:

Look, TH is not our future franchise QB, but we need to keep him around and get him coached up because no matter who we get to be our starter, they are going to suffer a terrible, season-ending injury. Not sure if it's the turf or what, but it's a given. 

I'm not actually sure that's the best case scenario. 

 

If I were the GM, I acquire the new prized QB and trade Heinicke and his team-friendly deal. If Heinicke can get you a day 2 pick, I'd take that to compensate for the draft picks lost. Look at an alternative to Allen as back-up. 

 

You need a mentor. A guy who studies the tape and can help the new QB whether vet or rookie. That may or may not be Heinicke. If they were 100% sold, they'd probably let Heinicke play out the season.  

 

And lastly, the health of the starting QB will dictate the season. I used to worry about quality back-ups, but not so much now. 

[KDawg]

8 hours ago, Silvernon said:

I'm not actually sure that's the best case scenario. 

 

If I were the GM, I acquire the new prized QB and trade Heinicke and his team-friendly deal. If Heinicke can get you a day 2 pick, I'd take that to compensate for the draft picks lost. Look at an alternative to Allen as back-up. 

 

You need a mentor. A guy who studies the tape and can help the new QB whether vet or rookie. That may or may not be Heinicke. If they were 100% sold, they'd probably let Heinicke play out the season.  

 

And lastly, the health of the starting QB will dictate the season. I used to worry about quality back-ups, but not so much now. 

 

You don't NEED a mentor, for what it's worth. That's what the coaches are for. It may help, sure. But it's not necessity.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

There is no trading Heineke, his value is a backup in Scott Turner’s system.