Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

There are some who like TH and some who hate him and nothing said, no proof will change their minds either way. 

A more accurate way to put it would be…

 

There are some who really, really, really like TH and some who just don’t think he’s anywhere near as good those who really, really, really like him.

 

Nobody hates him.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Just to play devils advocate….

 

The offensive line and offensive skill depth in general was an absolute MASH unit ****show for the last 6 weeks.

 

Old boy managed to get real production out of Cam Sims and some rando rookie TE yesterday.

 

If the D/ST puts a score up, we are kissing his ass today.

[zCommander]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ok, so we get to just throw out games at random when we feel like it? Should we throw out the Atlanta game as well because, while Heinicke had 3 TDs, he also had at least 3 dropped interceptions and was bailed out multiple times by Terry? Or do we only throw out the bad games?

 

I think most of us realize by now that last season's apparently dominant defense (or more precisely the latter half of last season's defense) was mostly smoke and mirrors and also a product of playing a far softer schedule than this season.

 

Either way, none of that changes the fact that our defense, while certainly not a top unit, did hold multiple high powered offenses to less than their average points scored all while our offense pretty consistently scored below what those teams' defenses had allowed thus far.

 

The offense stunk and while we seemed ok at dinking and dunking and puttup up yards between the 20s, we rarely hit big plays and once in the red zone settle way too often for FGs. Now, not all of that is on Heinicke obviously, but IMO his limitations as a passer along with not having great red zone weapons greatly reduced our offense's effectiveness.

 

I can't throw out games but you have no problem giving any credit to D because they played softer team or schedule. Whatever dude. 

The games I mentioned were not random. Something happened that didn't happen all of season. Covid and injury to our starters and we end up with a make shift team. Not an excuse but I also like to live in reality and not in la la land like some here. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 minutes ago, zskins said:

Not an excuse but I also like to live in reality and not in la la land like some here. 

Yet you claimed that above average defenses shutdown elite offenses and turn them over.  How is that realistic?

 

You’ve been presented with reality in that our defense gave up less points than most teams average and that our offense scored less than those teams give up on average.

 

That’s not an opinion, that’s facts.  That’s reality.

 

I get that the defense was disappointing.  No doubt.  But the expectation that they were going to shut down offenses and we were going to plod through our schedule scoring little and giving up less is not realistic at all.

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

[skins island connection]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

A more accurate way to put it would be…

 

There are some who really, really, really like TH and some who just don’t think he’s anywhere near as good those who really, really, really like him.

 

Nobody hates him.

Maybe hate was not the right word to use, so how about disapproves? 

I admit it, I think he was something different; something this team hasn't had yet; a QB who manages to escape the pocket under pressure, and it was fun to watch, especially when he ended up making a big play out of a sure loss of yds or a sack. 

 

My point is, 99.9% of all QBs go through a slump, and TH is no different. 

They lost some key weapons, Covid hurt them, and the difference in talent level regarding the back-up players was huge. 

Yes he doesn't have a strong arm, but he has other intangibles that while it doesn't make up for arm strength it does extend plays. 

 

I am in agreement that he most likely isn't the long term solution, but more importantly, I don't want to see this organization become 'desperate' and either give up major draft picks/huge payday for a QB who is near the twilight of his career, nor do I want to see them go all out in the draft on a QB when the crop doesn't look promising. 

The talk of Carr coming here sounds appealing, but IMO it is wishful thinking, especially if they make the playoffs; they will want the farm for him and this organization is dumb enough to give it to them.

If the stars align, then do it. If not, i'd rather see them fill some of the many needs this team has, because this team isn't built for a plug-n-play QB. 

[mistertim]

29 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

I can't throw out games but you have no problem giving any credit to D because they played softer team or schedule. Whatever dude. 

The games I mentioned were not random. Something happened that didn't happen all of season. Covid and injury to our starters and we end up with a make shift team. Not an excuse but I also like to live in reality and not in la la land like some here. 

 

I'm not giving credit to the D because they did or didn't play a softer schedule. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. This year they faced a far tougher schedule of offensive teams. And while they mostly didn't live up to expectations, the fact of the matter is that outside of a few games games they did limit the opponent's offense to less than they were averaging at the time. Another fact of the matter is that our offense was consistently scoring less than what opposing defenses had been giving up until that game. These aren't "opinions".

 

And sure, the Cowboys games weren't "random" (whatever that even means in a football game). It was a confluence of factors. Too much pressure on Heinicke from their DL, a banged up OL, a mostly neutralized run game, the Dallas defense game planning for TH by playing press man to try and neutralize the dink and dunk game and force Heinicke to try and make throws he couldn't make (which is exactly what he tried to do).

 

Dallas had Heinicke's (and our offense's) number in both of those games. No if and's or buts about it. But that doesn't mean you get to just "throw out" those games because you didn't like the outcome and it reflected poorly on Heinicke.

[zCommander]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Yet you claimed that above average defenses shutdown elite offenses and turn them over.  How is that realistic?

 

You’ve been presented with reality in that our defense gave up less points than most teams average and that our offense scored less than those teams give up on average.

 

That’s not an opinion, that’s facts.  That’s reality.

 

I get that the defense was disappointing.  No doubt.  But the expectation that they were going to shut down offenses and we were going to plod through our schedule scoring little and giving up less is not realistic at all.

 

 

 

The Raven D has and won 2 SBs. The Giants D did that to Brady twice and won both of those SBs. Sure those are not reality at all...lol

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

The Raven D has and won 2 SBs. The Giants D did that to Brady twice and won both of those SBs. Sure those are not reality at all...lol

 

 

Bro, Flacco was elite that year.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

The Raven D has and won 2 SBs. The Giants D did that to Brady twice and won both of those SBs. Sure those are not reality at all...lol

 

 

 

The Raven's D won 1 Super Bowl, and that was quite possibly the best NFL defense in history...at least top 3.

 

The 2012 SB was because Flacco suddenly turned into a stud and threw for 11 TDs and 0 INTs in their run.

 

But sure, keep throwing out complete outliers and pretend like they're the norm.

 

I'm honestly not positive what specific point you're trying to prove here. That we don't need a QB upgrade? That as long as we build a legendary defense we might luck into a SB with Heinicke? Do you even know what your point is outside of just reflexively defending Heinicke no matter what?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

The Raven D has and won 2 SBs. The Giants D did that to Brady twice and won both of those SBs. Sure those are not reality at all...lol

 

 

I’d feel better to know you’re trolling us vs. legitimately believing in what you are typing.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

This sort of stuff is basically par for the course when it comes to a handful of TH supporters here.

 

Things went well? It was clearly Heinicke's doing for the most part. Sure, some other stuff went ok but at the end of the day we won because of Heinicke.

 

Things went poorly? It was clearly everyone's fault but Heinicke and if the rest of the team was up to par with TH we would have won (regardless of how bad TH looked).

 

Rinse. Repeat. 

 

I think at this point Heinicke has shown himself to be a low level starter and/or high level backup who can help you win games when everything else is clicking exactly as it should. Pure game manager who will make a couple splash plays but who, due to his limitations, will never be a QB who can put a team on his back and get them a win with his arm.

 

I think the sooner we all just accept that the better and then we can move on towards an upgrade at the position while keeping Heinicke as a quality bacup

Actually, we should move on from Taylor. Time to shut this thread forever.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Pshh. This was clearly put together by someone who hates Taylor Heinicke. TH probably stole his girlfriend or something. 

[CjSuAvE22]

1 hour ago, skins island connection said:

 

I hope they can get a QB who can throw a football through a car door. 

its possible we used to have a tight end that caught a ball through a wall, and even with an ELITE D and OFFENSIVE WEAPONS I highly doubt TH could play as a good enough QB to win even a playoff game, any average defense can shut him down. Look what has happened as tape has built up on him passing wise 11 tds and 7 ints in the last ten games, is just not gonna get it done in todays NFL

Edited January 4, 2022 by CjSuAvE22

[skins island connection]

27 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

its possible we used to have a tight end that caught a ball through a wall, and even with an ELITE D and OFFENSIVE WEAPONS I highly doubt TH could play as a good enough QB to win even a playoff game, any average defense can shut him down. Look what has happened as tape has built up on him passing wise 11 tds and 7 ints in the last ten games, is just not gonna get it done in todays NFL

 

Geez, does anyone read anymore?

Ok, let me try, 1 more time. 

TAYLOR HEINICKE IS NOT THE ANSWER!!

But since you just agreed with me in a way you didn't realize, look at your statement; the last 10 games. How many of those 10 games were they missing Thomas? McKissic? o-linemen?

There's no way to tell whether he could play well enough to win a playoff game, so i'm not going there. Its purely a speculative opinion. 

With good weapons, defenses cannot afford to pressure him like they've been doing. Is he gonna go on a 12 game winning streak, throwing for 400 yds/game? I doubt it, but he's good enough to win games IF the weapons and scheme are there, but as I stated above, I agree he isn't the long term answer, but do you honestly believe that if Carr had started either of the Cowboy games that the WFT would have won? Not with that depleted team. 

This organization will do something dumb like give up the farm for a QB out of desperation and it will backfire, especially if they do not vamp up some key positions.

[NickyJ]

53 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I'm in the camp that Heinicke has been poor, but I do question the the offensive line ratings. It's made up of Covid backups, and often ends up with pressure that forces Heinicke to do his magic tricks in the backfield that we know and love. I dunno that the offensive line would look as good with a less mobile QB who can't use Madden spin moves to escape sacks.

Edited January 4, 2022 by NickyJ

[CjSuAvE22]

19 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

Geez, does anyone read anymore?

Ok, let me try, 1 more time. 

TAYLOR HEINICKE IS NOT THE ANSWER!!

But since you just agreed with me in a way you didn't realize, look at your statement; the last 10 games. How many of those 10 games were they missing Thomas? McKissic? o-linemen?

There's no way to tell whether he could play well enough to win a playoff game, so i'm not going there. Its purely a speculative opinion. 

With good weapons, defenses cannot afford to pressure him like they've been doing. Is he gonna go on a 12 game winning streak, throwing for 400 yds/game? I doubt it, but he's good enough to win games IF the weapons and scheme are there, but as I stated above, I agree he isn't the long term answer, but do you honestly believe that if Carr had started either of the Cowboy games that the WFT would have won? Not with that depleted team. 

This organization will do something dumb like give up the farm for a QB out of desperation and it will backfire, especially if they do not vamp up some key positions.

I quoted your statement for a reason, the first part of my statement is in reference to your quote, the rest is my opinion adding on to the thread, also I absolutely think we win with Derek Carr vs the cowboys in the first game...Heinicke was the reason we lost that game giving up a fumble for a TD.

Edited January 4, 2022 by CjSuAvE22

[goskins10]

First - Yes @skins island connection hate is the wrong word. Disapproves is also the wrong word. How many times do those of us with legitimate concerns about his ability say we are rooting for him and even really like him for you who support him stop accusing us of hating on the guy. It's really getting tiresome. Also, we have had a guy who could throw a ball through a wall who was ****ing useless - his name was Jeff George. So no, arm strength is not the only thing you need. But is likely the most important thing after football IQ. 

 

Now, to the stuff about Ds holding teams below thier averages making it possible for the team to win. The first 6 gms, the D only held the Chargers under thier scoring average. In that game the D held the Chargers to 20 (27.6 ave) but the off jsut scored 16. But fair enough that was a messed up game with 2 QBs since Fitz went down. The next 5 gms the D was abysmal. We still won 2 of those games - NY and Atl. D allowed way above thier season average but off still scored more. So good on them. 

 

However, the last 10 games the D has held the other team below thier season average 7 times, only allowing Carolina to score more - 21 vs thier 17.9 average, Phi the first time 27 vs thier season ave of 26.1 and dallast the 2nd time allowing 56 when thier season average is 29.9. 

 

All other games - so 70% of the last 10 gms the D held the opponent BELOW thier season average in scoring. Here are those teams and spreads for those 7 gms: 

Packers - ave: 26.3 - our D 24 our score 10

Broncos - ave: 19.4 - our D 17 - our score 10

Bucs - ave 29.4 - our D 19 - our score 29

Seahawks - ave 27.3 - our D 15 - our score 17

Raiders - ave 21.2 - our D 15 - our score 17

dallas 1st gm - ave 29.9 - our D 27 - our score 20

Phil 2nd gm - ave 26.1 - our D 20 - our score 16

 

Only once did we score 21 pts in those 7 gms. We still won 3 of them. Yes, the D helped build a deep hole. But the last 10 gms they have played well enough to win. Only the second dallas game and the first philly game was the D not great. I mean carolina scored above thier average but thier average was only 17.9 and we let them score 21 - and we won that game - good game by Taylor and the offense. The offense has been bad outside a few games. They just did enough to win the games we did win. 

 

Need to look elsewhere than piling on the D. These arguments are just not holing up. Fact is again, Taylor is a nice story, will be a very good back-up but is just not starter material. 

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

I'm in the camp that Heinicke has been poor, but I do question the the offensive line ratings. It's made up of Covid backups, and often ends up with pressure that forces Heinicke to do his magic tricks in the backfield that we know and love. I dunno that the offensive line would look as good with a less mobile QB who can't use Madden spin moves to escape sacks.

 

The tweet that @Skinsinparadiseprovided was PFF scores. PFF generally only grades how well the offensive linemen execute their assignements. They usually do whatever they can so they're only factoring in the OL prouction as opposed to the QB's role in it because we all know great QBs can make poor or mediocre OLs look really good and poor QBs can make really good OLs look like crap.

 

I think we need to just face the fact that we had a good to very good OL for most of the season. Teams also eventually began scheming specifically to take advantage of Heinicke's limitations which made it even more difficult.

 

Neither Turner's play calling nor the OL were elite, but IMO they both get way too much grief even though they've both performed pretty well given the limited resources they've had.

[method man]

This guy is obviously not a starter in this league but I think they will keep him around as a long term backup. For all of you with tunnel vision who want him off the team at the end of the season, why don't you do yourself a favor and look at other backup QBs who have been pressed into duty the past two years? Would you rather have Heinicke or DiNucci, Ryan Finley, Mike Glennon, Jake Fromm, Nick Mullens, etc?

[Redskins 2021]

13 minutes ago, method man said:

This guy is obviously not a starter in this league but I think they will keep him around as a long term backup. For all of you with tunnel vision who want him off the team at the end of the season, why don't you do yourself a favor and look at other backup QBs who have been pressed into duty the past two years? Would you rather have Heinicke or DiNucci, Ryan Finley, Mike Glennon, Jake Fromm, Nick Mullens, etc?

He definitely stays he a great back up

 If you are unprepared to play against him he could destroy the other team. Week in and week out is where it becomes a problem. Also, he plays great against week and middle of the road teams bur he really struggles with the better ones.

[mistertim]

13 minutes ago, method man said:

This guy is obviously not a starter in this league but I think they will keep him around as a long term backup. For all of you with tunnel vision who want him off the team at the end of the season, why don't you do yourself a favor and look at other backup QBs who have been pressed into duty the past two years? Would you rather have Heinicke or DiNucci, Ryan Finley, Mike Glennon, Jake Fromm, Nick Mullens, etc?

 

Yeah I think TH absolutely has earned his spot on the team and I'm glad we have him for at last another season. But that doesn't change the fact (IMO) that he's not the future and he's only a fringe starter level QB and we should definitely be looking for an upgrade.

 

And none of that is even necessarily a knock on TH. Out of all the people on the planet, only 32 are starting NFL QBs. And only another 32 are backups. So it's not shameful thing for TH to be  backup, especially considering that this time last year he was sleeping on his sister's couch and stuying for an engineering degree.

[DJHJR86]

We did actually win 4 games against teams that scored more than 17 points...which only happened once in the prior three seasons.  Heinicke is a guy you want on your roster.  He can come in and win games for you.  He's actually exactly what many people said early on he was...a younger more mobile Ryan Fitzpatrick.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:21 AM, zskins said:

 

I really hate it when someone says NEVER. Like you have a crystal ball and can see things no one can. 🙄

 

Never is a figure of speech and not to be taken literally.  Just as you can't say I will never win a slam dunk contest even though we all know that won't happen.  

Edited January 4, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan