Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[heyholetsgogrant]

6 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Things that need to be retired:

 

1- any and all comparisons to Brady/Belichick/NE

 

2- the phrase "kings ransom"

 

3- tweets that say anything followed by "Thats it.  Thats the tweet"

 

4- Colin Cowturd

 

I'm sure there are more.

 

 

5 - I'll give 2 #1's, 2 #2's, One DL (not chase), and Collins for Watson. 

[clskinsfan]

21 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

This was GOATS draft profile......

 

Negatives: Poor build. Very skinny and narrow. Ended the '99 season weighing 195 pounds and still looks like a rail at 211. Looks a little frail and lacks great physical stature and strength. Can get pushed down more easily than you'd like. Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush. Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral. System-type player who can get exposed if he must ad-lib and do things on his own.

Summary: Is not what you're looking for in terms of physical stature, strength, arm strength and mobility, but he has the intangibles and production and showed great Griese-like improvement as a senior. Could make it in the right system but will not be for everyone.

 

So maybe Mac Jones would be ok.....granted Brady was picked 199th, Mac Jones may cost a 19th. Maybe Heinicke would pan out......just never know.

 

I am seeing some mocks now with the Pats trading up to draft Jones. How ironic would that be?

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

On Facebook, I get a lot of Kurt Warner references when people try to argue how Taylor Heinicke's going to be the next stud coming from the depths of obscurity to nail down the QB position.

 

*stares wistfully into the horizon*

 

Man, I'm old enough to remember when Colt Brennan was the next Tom Brady. Those were the days, I tell you. Those were the days.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by mistertim

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

On Facebook, I get a lot of Kurt Warner references when people try to argue how Taylor Heinicke's going to be the next stud coming from the depths of obscurity to nail down the QB position.

 

I actually have made a joke that he was the next Kurt Warner several times...

[actorguy1]

 

[DefinitelyMaybe]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

What I'm disputing is your characterization that him barely being able to walk and doing zero G treadmill / pool work somehow means he'll be ready to go for this coming season. All it means is that his rehab his progressing. He hasn't done anything even close to football related with that ankle, and likely won't for another couple of months. By then we're at FA.

 

And regardless of what you say, a compound fracture and dislocation of an ankle for a guy who relies on stability in that joint in pretty much every facet of his game, IS a huge concern. And yes of course he gets checked out by a doctor. But all that will tell us is "Yes, he can take part in football". It won't give us any indication of whether or not he's the same QB or ever will be. 

 

So it all matters, yes. Because by the time FA gets here we will have no way of knowing if Dak can actually play QB effectively since he's incredibly unlikely to be ready to do true football work so teams can see what they're getting.

 

That means some team is likely going to have to pony up a whole bunch of money and just hope. 

Can you provide any circumstances where the double compound fracture rules a player out of the bulk of one season and then the entirety of the following as you clearly seem to know a lot about it? It’s highly highly likely he will be involved in the 2021 season and that’s my point and yet again you’ve replied, incapable of twisting my words

Your making up quotes and debating with yourself fella!

 

If you think a doctors report would only come out with “Yes, he can take part in football” that’s where your sorely misguided if they’re going to Chuck a load of money down him they’re absolutely gonna take the view of the medical experts and be sure that the ankle will fully heal and whether or not it will impact his physical ability to play moving forward, so let’s not pretend the doctors will give you a one sentence response then you have to make the choice to gamble or not

 

I’d suggest if they’re content with the medical advice, and the opportunity arises they’ll be likely to be in serious talks, because Dak the player is a very very good QB who suits Rivera / Turners offence to a T

Edited February 3, 2021 by DefinitelyMaybe

[carex]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

You're definitely not. To me it's the equivalent of saying "I saw a guy win the lottery at the store down the street once, so that means I'll definitely win it too if I keep playing the same game he did at the same store."

 

that's true.  But Russell Wilson was third rounder and Dak Prescott was a fourth.  Kirk was a fourth.  Nick Foles was a fourth and no matter how many times people try to replace him, he ends up starting where ever he goes.  Brees was a second.

 

A lot of people seem to think former 6th rounder Gardner Minshew will end up starting somewhere besides Jacksonville once Trevor Lawrence is officially on the team

 

 

 

[Jericho]

3 hours ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

What happened with Mariota in Tennessee?

 

I have basically 0 knowledge of the situation, seems strong, mobile, good arm

Was he just not showing that consistently there?

 

Injured a bunch and not super effective when he did play. He'd flash at times, but then stink the next week. Sometimes he was playing through injuries and operating at less than 100%. But overall you'd say a general conservatism and a lack of big plays. The Tians offense was awful when he was in there.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

JAMEIS WINSTONQB, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS

Saints coach Sean Payton said the team has “big interest” in bringing back Jameis Winston.

“We had a great exposure for one year with Jameis,” Payton said in an interview with Good Morning Football. "We had enough time to see what we had with him as a player, as a leader. I really like what we had a chance to see. He was a tremendous leader for this team, and that’s hard to do when you come in new in free agency your first year as a backup quarterback. So that’ll be an important checkmark for us. And a lot of times, you want to hold your cards closer to the vest and he is a free agent. But him, along with Taysom Hill who’s in the building, we’ve said it all along — we’re going to develop and coach those guys." It's a strong endorsement for Winston, who's set for free agency in March. Winston is the favorite to be the Saints' 2021 starter, though it's not a given after Hill made four spot starts over him last season. 

SOURCE: NFL Network

Feb 3, 2021, 10:03 AM ET

•  

Sean Payton a Believer...

[JamesMadisonSkins]

@Jericho but wasn't this the same offense that failed to give Derrick Henry the primary ballcarrier role?

 

I mean, I'm willing to write off the Titans offense from a playcalling / operational standpoint during that period for that fact alone.

[Jericho]

4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

@Jericho but wasn't this the same offense that failed to give Derrick Henry the primary ballcarrier role?

 

I mean, I'm willing to write off the Titans offense from a playcalling / operational standpoint during that period for that fact alone.

 

Yes, Henry and Mariota overlapped for all but one year. The Henry thing does not look good. But, it also seems like you're trying to talk yourself in Mariota. And I kind of get it. There are worst options. Though as Mariota is signed, it's potentially moot as I see no reason to trade for him outside of a late round flyer (6th or lower). And the Titans did have some decent coaches at times. I mean Matt LaFleur was their offensive coordinator in that time frame.

[Riggo#44]

12 minutes ago, carex said:

 

that's true.  But Russell Wilson was third rounder and Dak Prescott was a fourth.  Kirk was a fourth.  Nick Foles was a fourth and no matter how many times people try to replace him, he ends up starting where ever he goes.  Brees was a second.

 

A lot of people seem to think former 6th rounder Gardner Minshew will end up starting somewhere besides Jacksonville once Trevor Lawrence is officially on the team

 

 

 

 

And there is a difference between "possibility" and "probability." We can go by "so-and-so was a 1st rounder and a BUST!!" and "so-and-so was a <insert-later-round-here> pick, and is AWESOME!!" anecdotes all day, but the statistics show the probability of landing a long-term QB after the 1st round nose dive off a cliff.

 

So yes, it's POSSIBLE to land a QB in a later round, the PROBABILITY of that happening is significantly less.

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

Can you provide any circumstances where the double compound fracture rules a player out of the bulk of one season and then the entirety of the following as you clearly seem to know a lot about it? It’s highly highly likely he will be involved in the 2021 season and that’s my point and yet again you’ve replied, incapable of twisting my words

Your making up quotes and debating with yourself fella!

 

If you think a doctors report would only come out with “Yes, he can take part in football” that’s where your sorely misguided if they’re going to Chuck a load of money down him they’re absolutely gonna take the view of the medical experts and be sure that the ankle will fully heal and whether or not it will impact his physical ability to play moving forward, so let’s not pretend the doctors will give you a one sentence response then you have to make the choice to gamble or not

 

I’d suggest if they’re content with the medical advice, and the opportunity arises they’ll be likely to be in serious talks, because Dak the player is a very very good QB who suits Rivera / Turners offence to a T

 

So is it your view that the doctors can somehow predict, based on MRIs, whether or not Dak will be the same on the football field as he was in the past?

 

Dak the player was last season. Since then with a huge injury, there's no way of knowing whether that guy will actually be back to what he was. Again, it's a gamble. Some team will take it. 

[RWJ]

27 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

This is disgusting!  If there were an anger button I could click on I would do it to this post.  Not angry at the poster who posted this but this video!

[88Comrade2000]

If you want a QB,  whether that's Watson , Carr or a rookie ; expect to overpay. The demand this year, outpaces the supply. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Rdskns2000

[86 Snyder]

20 minutes ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

Can you provide any circumstances where the double compound fracture rules a player out of the bulk of one season and then the entirety of the following as you clearly seem to know a lot about it? It’s highly highly likely he will be involved in the 2021 season and that’s my point and yet again you’ve replied, incapable of twisting my words

Your making up quotes and debating with yourself fella!

 

If you think a doctors report would only come out with “Yes, he can take part in football” that’s where your sorely misguided if they’re going to Chuck a load of money down him they’re absolutely gonna take the view of the medical experts and be sure that the ankle will fully heal and whether or not it will impact his physical ability to play moving forward, so let’s not pretend the doctors will give you a one sentence response then you have to make the choice to gamble or not

 

I’d suggest if they’re content with the medical advice, and the opportunity arises they’ll be likely to be in serious talks, because Dak the player is a very very good QB who suits Rivera / Turners offence to a T

 

This is from David Chao, former top doc for the Chargers.  He is THE source for all things football injury on the internet.  Almost never wrong.  Reviews injuries from video in real time and nails it like 99% of the time.  

 

Dakota will be just fine.

 

 

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Hmmm..  I think I said that 🙂  My direct quote:   "Maybe Payne, or Allen are available if we don't think we can sign them. Or maybe Ioan who has troubles staying healthy (I love his play but he can't stay on the field) or Settle who despite some peoples opinion would likely start on more Dlines."

 

Again, my main concern was the talk of trading Sweat or Young - both of whom I have seen mentioned in possible trades for a QB - Sweat way more than Young to be fair. 

 

I don't think anyone WANTS to trade Montez Sweat, I know I don't, but if he gets us closer to Deshaun Watson then I'm considering it. Yes, trading Payne, Ion or Allen is preferable over dealing Sweat but if I'm Houston I'm pushing hard for Sweat, even at the expense of giving up one of the three 1sts I originally asked for. After all, Sweat is a 1st round pick and he would be one defensive starter I would insist be part of the deal. If WFT said "OK, we'll include Sweat but that takes it down to two 1sts and none of our other defensive starters. The offer is two 1sts and Sweat plus a third for Watson and a 2022 3rd. That's as much as I'd offer and I'd hate including Sweat but you gotta give up assets to get them back. 

Also, if we traded Sweat, think about it, including Dwayne , Sweat and the other two 1sts in the deal that's 4 first round picks we wouldn't be paying for in the future, actually 5 since we didn't even have one this year. Use that money on existing rostered guys and free agents.....and for paying Watson of course. 

[carex]

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

And there is a difference between "possibility" and "probability." We can go by "so-and-so was a 1st rounder and a BUST!!" and "so-and-so was a <insert-later-round-here> pick, and is AWESOME!!" anecdotes all day, but the statistics show the probability of landing a long-term QB after the 1st round nose dive off a cliff.

 

So yes, it's POSSIBLE to land a QB in a later round, the PROBABILITY of that happening is significantly less.

 

considering how old some of the current first round QBs out there are, I think it's artificially lowering the view on the number of first round busts

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

What's keeping the Raiders from contending is they don't play any defense, not the QB.  They give up 30 every week (29.9 to be exact).  I don't know what the deal is with him and Gruden, but that relationship never seemed all that warm from the beginning.

 

Am I wrong for thinking Derek Carr isn't a bad option?  He's improved since Gruden got there and the last 2 years have been the best of his career.  Frankly, I don't see a whole lot of difference between Stafford and Carr.  Stafford has more gunslinger/flair for the dramatic (even though their late game heroics in recent years are pretty comparable, if not the edge to Carr), I don't see this perceptual wide gap.  Clearly, Stafford has a better reputation for some reason, but it's not play on the field in recent years.  But if that difference in rep means a lower trade compensation price tag, I'd be in for that.  Carr's also a younger, cheaper, better version of what Ryan is right now, if folks were thinking he was on the table. 

 

Since 2019 avg: 4100 yards, 69% completion, 24 TDs/9 INTs, 7.9 ypa, 101 passer rating/68 QBR

 

For only $21m for the next two years, I'd be in on that. 

 

I won't pretend to have intimate knowledge of Carr. But I have a number of friends who are Raiders fans and I hear from many more. They all have pretty much the same conclusion.  His stats are misleading, they don't show his critical fumbles and other issues.  Gruden has not been down with his QB for 2 years, this is not news. There's a reason for that.  Trading high picks for a QB who is just not good enough sounds like a plan if your goal is 10-6 and a first round playoff loss.  I want more than that.  

[86 Snyder]

33 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

5 - I'll give 2 #1's, 2 #2's, One DL (not chase), and Collins for Watson. 

 

[Number 44]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

There is a reason David Carr may be available

Yeah, because he's retired.

[bowhunter]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

So, if we flunk out in the vet market, how about a ‘trade up in the draft’ scenario. On the basis getting Fields for example is hard to see, what can we actually achieve;
 

Getting into the top three seems off limits to me. But what about #4 with Atlanta ?

 

- Atlanta are tied to Ryan for 2021. They do have an easier out in 2022 if required.

- They are significantly over the cap, with limited options to extend contracts to create space.

- They clearly will get under the cap, but that must take them out of much of the FA market.

- That potential cap/FA restriction may make them keen to acquire more draft picks.

- They tried to a trade up with us last year from #16 to #2, as they wanted Chase, so even though we bounced them, we’ve discussed a very similar size move in the past.

 

If we want a top 4 QB, the jump from #19 to #4 seems the most aggressive way to go about it.

This. Is there a way we can get some cap relief worked in to a trade? This is where smart FO's earn their money

[KDawg]

My favorite part of this is all the people predicting things like 9-7, 8-8, 10-6. You’re all wrong before you even get a chance to be right!

 

Theres 17 games next year.

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Care improves us but the rate of improvement isn’t worth a first. Maybe a second but that’s pushing it.

 

With a first place schedule our current guys (with no other additions or subtractions to the roster) are probably around a 5-12, 6-11...

 

Adding Carr probably bumps us up a few games.

 

Not the kind of upgrade that we should be spending top draft capital on. Let alone two ones.

 

With good FA and draft periods the team as is is likely around 7-10, 8-9.

 

Add Carr and again it’s probably 9 or 10 wins.

 

Watson... 10-7, 11-6, 12-5ish

 

A rookie THIS season probably leaves us in the 9 or 10 win range but allows us to build for 2022... which I feel is the year we should be looking at as our first real competitive season realistically.

 

Now... maybe our guys take a big leap. Maybe we get some big names in FA and the draft and we get better fast. It’s all possible. But just trying to lay out my thoughts here.

 

 

I think because we won the division and played Tompa well; people think we are one player away. The Nfc East Will not be as bad in 21. We are playing the best of the Nfc and KC and Buffalo. It will take 2 more off seasons for Martin to get Ron the team he needs to be one of the contenders.

 

I think we fall back in 21; before we have our run, starting in 22.

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I don't think anyone WANTS to trade Montez Sweat, I know I don't, but if he gets us closer to Deshaun Watson then I'm considering it. Yes, trading Payne, Ion or Allen is preferable over dealing Sweat but if I'm Houston I'm pushing hard for Sweat, even at the expense of giving up one of the three 1sts I originally asked for. After all, Sweat is a 1st round pick and he would be one defensive starter I would insist be part of the deal. If WFT said "OK, we'll include Sweat but that takes it down to two 1sts and none of our other defensive starters. The offer is two 1sts and Sweat plus a third for Watson and a 2022 3rd. That's as much as I'd offer and I'd hate including Sweat but you gotta give up assets to get them back. 

Also, if we traded Sweat, think about it, including Dwayne , Sweat and the other two 1sts in the deal that's 4 first round picks we wouldn't be paying for in the future, actually 5 since we didn't even have one this year. Use that money on existing rostered guys and free agents.....and for paying Watson of course. 

 

Sorry but just not parting with Sweat no matter what. And full disclosure I said from day one Watson was the best and really only QB I would be interested in for us in terms of trading for them until I warmed to the Stafford idea. I get it. I love Watson's play. 

 

But the chemistry Sweat and Young have is too much for me to break up. I would rather give more draft picks. I think we as fans tend to overvalue draft picks. Not wanting to trade entire drafts away. But we know what we have in Sweat. His freakishly longs arms and incredible speed make him a menace. And when you add a freak of nature athlete with a passion for football in Young on the other side, I jsut do not want to break that tandem up, even for a QB like Watson.  We need them of getting a QB is not as much help to me. The other ones? Yea, OK, but not those two.