FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, megared said:

 

Agree...his work ethic may be the limitation in him ever overcoming it.  Sad fact of the matter is, these guys' biggest opportunity is at the time they're the most immature.   

 

But I don't think it was ever achievable to expect him to figure it ALL (or even much) out by week 5.

 

Expecting DH to sling the ball around like Kurt Warner is the equivalent of lining up on offense and running the swinging gate.  Over and over.  

 

Joe Burrow among others figured it out quick.  The stories of a Qb not working hard is really uncommon at least in terms of the intensity and layers of it that we got here.  Between the Peterson story.  The logging of film hours.  Checking out quickly out of the building.  the player telling him to model Alex Smith and he didn't.  The red flags about it before the draft.  The Ohio State reporter who sat through a Qb meeting for an article he was writing saying he witnessed Joe Burrow ironically of all people making fun of Haskins for how little he knew/studied the playbook.

 

These aren't run of the mill stories about a young QB.    And IMO he doesn't have the talent to overcome a "meh" work ethic.  And I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze to patiently wait it out. If you go back to Rivera's statement about QBs when he took the job, ditto Scott Turner, ditto Doug Williams -- they basically put him on notice on this count.  And it appears like he failed that test. 

 

And its a big test to fail IMO.  Why the heck have patience with a dude when you think it likely takes mega committment for him to develop when you actually seriously also question that he has that committment.

 

Between that and supposedly other things that rubbed them the wrong way, if you want to change a culture you don't reward that stuff and let it ride IMO.  

 

 

[SoCalSkins]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Joe Burrow among others figured it out quick.  The stories of a Qb not working hard is really uncommon at least in terms of the intensity and layers of it that we got here.  Between the Peterson story.  The logging of film hours.  Checking out quickly out of the building.  the player telling him to model Alex Smith and he didn't.  The red flags about it before the draft.  The Ohio State reporter who sat through a Qb meeting for an article he was writing saying he witnessed Joe Burrow ironically of all people making fun of Haskins for how little he knew/studied the playbook.

 

These aren't run of the mill stories about a young QB.    And IMO he doesn't have the talent to overcome a "meh" work ethic.  And I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze to patiently wait it out. If you go back to Rivera's statement about QBs when he took the job, ditto Scott Turner, ditto Doug Williams -- they basically put him on notice on this count.  And it appears like he failed that test. 

 

And its a big test to fail IMO.  Why the heck have a paitence with a dude when you think it likely takes mega committment for him to develop when you actually seriously also question that he has that committment.

 

Between that and supposedly other things that rubbed them the wrong way, if you want to change a culture you don't reward that stuff and let it ride IMO.  

 

 

Everyone also likes to say Washington can’t develop a QB. Based on past history that might be true. However, look at the glowing praise Mahommes constantly gives to Alex Smith to this day for helping him become a pro. Haskins had the same benefit. He could have mirrored Alex Smith learned how to watch film in the NFL, show up early, be a leader etc. He didn’t take advantage of any of it. It’s not going to work here or anywhere else. He thinks he’s good enough. There is no desire to grow and put in the work. It’s over for him.

[megared]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Between that and supposedly other things that rubbed them the wrong way, if you want to change a culture you don't reward that stuff and let it ride IMO.  

 

I don't care about 'rubbing the wrong way.'  I want to know our coach is making decisions that follow a logical path of thought, balancing short term & long term interests. 

 

If he even thought for a second he wasn't going to have the patience to deal with young QB growing pains/immaturity, he could've taken steps to sidestep this whole situation.  If the whispers about work ethic had legs, he should've.  A coaches job isn't just to respond...it's also to plan.   

 

There was never a reason to GIVE him the starting job in the first place. 

 

If this is the offense, there was no reason to believe DH would ever be the guy to run it.  Especially not initially.

[KDawg]

I don’t think he knew about Haskins... style. Or at least to the extent that he could lose the locker room due to it.

 

By the way, the offense is literally tailored to Haskins. If he’s not the one to run it... what CAN he run?

[Darrell Green Fan]

The Haskins defenders are going to look pretty foolish in a few years when he is out of the league.  

[Warhead36]

I was fine with playing Haskins for the entire year since its a rebuilding year, but if the reports of his work ethic/maturity/attitude are this bad then yeah sit him. No use crying over spilled milk. I'm going to think of McLaurin as our 1st rounder that year and Haskins as just a missed 3rd rounder. Move on.

[SoCalSkins]

11 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The Haskins defenders are going to look pretty foolish in a few years when he is out of the league.  

We are past the foolishness point now. The coming years will only confirm it further. There will be people still defending the 4th and goal from the 12 pass  to the 9 instead of throwing into the end zone years from now when we are comparing our new bust to Haskins. 100% guaranteed.

[max21]

It’s going to be real fun when Allen stinks up the joint, after a good start last year down the stretch he was absolutely terrible and then we will be back to more QB drama. It really don’t see how he gives us a better chance to win but hey we will see 

[redskins59]

30 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The Haskins defenders are going to look pretty foolish in a few years when he is out of the league.  

 

I think everybody expects him to be out of the league in a couple of years.  His career has been destroyed.

[justice98]

32 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The Haskins defenders are going to look pretty foolish in a few years when he is out of the league.  

 

They'll just blame the franchise for "ruining" him.  They're already starting in with that. 

 

It's the same mentality that blames the team for ruining RG3 nd him never developing into a better QB, rather than RG3 himself.

[megared]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think he knew about Haskins... style. Or at least to the extent that he could lose the locker room due to it.

 

By the way, the offense is literally tailored to Haskins. If he’s not the one to run it... what CAN he run?

 

Do you mean tailored as in dumbed down so that he has a chance of success, or play design to his potential strengths in throwing the ball?

 

I'd argue those sideline shots should be occurring often-er and earlier.  Those are the throws that get a guy like Haskins room to operate (and would stress zones).  

 

Asking DH (with mechanics issues) to throw into crowds is asking for INTs, horrible passes, and indecisiveness. 

 

IMO there needs to be predetermined reads, with designed spacing created through route concepts.  I'm not seeing a lot of that.  

 

He doesn't have the touch, or reliability in footwork to consistently execute short/intermediate timing stuff.  Featuring that in our offense (or it being the only thing reliably there) was always gonna be square peg/round hole situation.  

 

You have to know he probably can't diagnose plays before the snap, and he probably isn't good reading them as they unfold.  Since he can't do these things, you have to at least give him one thing he CAN do.  

 

[MisterPinstripe]

2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

You have to know he probably can't diagnose plays before the snap, and he probably isn't good reading them as they unfold.  Since he can't do these things, you have to at least give him one thing he CAN do.  

 

Sounds like a bad QB if they can't do that. There are a chunk of plays, especially with Terry, where he is wide open in the middle of the field and Haskins either doesn't see him or just doesn't throw it. The throws are there, easy ones, he just isn't taking them. 

[profusion]

51 minutes ago, megared said:

There was never a reason to GIVE him the starting job in the first place. 

 

Rivera was quite clear on this, as I recall. Haskins got the starting job by default because there wasn't time in the limited off-season to have a proper QB competition. He wanted to see what Haskins could do, and it appears he's seen all he needs to see.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

23 minutes ago, max21 said:

It’s going to be real fun when Allen stinks up the joint, after a good start last year down the stretch he was absolutely terrible and then we will be back to more QB drama. It really don’t see how he gives us a better chance to win but hey we will see 

It's not about Allen.  Doubt anyone thinks he is the guy.  It's about Haskins not being the guy. It's clear and there is no point in entertaining it any longer.

[Number 44]

7 hours ago, CowboyKillerz said:

https://www.hogshaven.com/platform/amp/2020/10/9/21510192/what-haskinsd-viewing-gold-by-j-t-osullivan

 

 

Pretty good breakdown if you are up for it. Very valid points...

Thanks for posting this.  Shows a lot.  Oline is failing badly, but I can't believe how often Haskins didn't throw the ball  to wide open receivers, even when that receiver was clearly the first read.  Incredible.

[ggarriso]

57 minutes ago, megared said:

 

There was never a reason to GIVE him the starting job in the first place. 

 

 

I agree w/ this part of your post, I theorize that he assured lord Danny he would give DH a shot when he accepted the position.  "Simba" is literally a running joke both on and off the field, and (if it happened) Coach should have never ever made any assurance to our owner - who has supervised over 20 years of complete incompetence (on and off the field).   There was an article from Ben Standig that concerned me a bit in which Rivera detailed his exchange with DannyBoy where (in response to benching Simba) Dan said (paraphrase) "its your football team" - "and you will have to live w/ your decisions".  In my opinion, that little zing at the end was unnecessary and could be slightly telling that Danny still find ways to meddle - Danny is talking to a man who has had more success in football than Danny has ever sniffed, his answer should be simply "your team coach".  

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Do you mean tailored as in dumbed down so that he has a chance of success, or play design to his potential strengths in throwing the ball?

 

I'd argue those sideline shots should be occurring often-er and earlier.  Those are the throws that get a guy like Haskins room to operate (and would stress zones).  

 

Asking DH (with mechanics issues) to throw into crowds is asking for INTs, horrible passes, and indecisiveness. 

 

IMO there needs to be predetermined reads, with designed spacing created through route concepts.  I'm not seeing a lot of that.  

 

He doesn't have the touch, or reliability in footwork to consistently execute short/intermediate timing stuff.  Featuring that in our offense (or it being the only thing reliably there) was always gonna be square peg/round hole situation.  

 

You have to know he probably can't diagnose plays before the snap, and he probably isn't good reading them as they unfold.  Since he can't do these things, you have to at least give him one thing he CAN do.  

 

Haskins strengths are short passes that allow for YAC. It’s what he lived on at Ohio State. He has a low accuracy deep ball and anything short outside the numbers is rarely completed despite his arm strength. His best throw is slants. Anything that takes more than a three step drop is giving him too much time to think and process.

 

Even when he has time he doesn’t know where to go with the football. The quick stuff is perfect for Haskins because of the quick release and letting him use his arm. 
 

He doesn’t throw with anticipation and he throws to a receiver rather than a spot the receiver should be based on coverage.

 

Thats why he HAS to live on the short stuff. 
 

The deep ball to McLaurin was a quick fade. He decided he was throwing it from the moment the ball was snapped. No thinking. Just drop back and lob it up. If he has to diagnose anything that ball is landing way out of McLaurin’s reach. 
 

The offense was tailored to him. That doesn’t mean every play call was perfect. It doesn’t mean every play design was perfect. But the offense itself was exactly what he needs to be successful.

[megared]

11 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Sounds like a bad QB if they can't do that. There are a chunk of plays, especially with Terry, where he is wide open in the middle of the field and Haskins either doesn't see him or just doesn't throw it. The throws are there, easy ones, he just isn't taking them. 

 

Most young QBs can't.  And the ones that have initial success (outside generational talents) have creative OCs that simplify the game while still giving defenses fits.     

 

Last season after several games it looked like the game was beginning to slow down (to the point to where it was no longer too fast for him).  It looks like he regressed, and has no idea where to go with the ball.  That isn't a game time thing.  

 

They saw it in practice, and moved ahead anyways.  

[megared]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Haskins strengths are short passes that allow for YAC. It’s what he lived on at Ohio State. He has a low accuracy deep ball and anything short outside the numbers is rarely completed despite his arm strength. His best throw is slants. Anything that takes more than a three step drop is giving him too much time to think and process.

 

Just curious here, and surely most of it comes down to lack of anticipation, but why does there never appear to be spacing?  I just don't see concepts forcing decision making or stressing of defenses.    At least lob a few, and get the D on their heels.

 

I can't imagine had he thrown the ball ~1/2 sec, or 1 sec earlier in some cases, that it'd change the fact that Baltimore's entire D was often waiting in tow.  Is that from a coaching lack of trust in him making reads?  I've heard of closing half the field off, but this seems like it's putting all of the action in one place.  

 

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Even when he has time he doesn’t know where to go with the football. The quick stuff is perfect for Haskins because of the quick release and letting him use his arm. 
 

He doesn’t throw with anticipation and he throws to a receiver rather than a spot the receiver should be based on coverage.

 

Thats why he HAS to live on the short stuff. 
 

The deep ball to McLaurin was a quick fade. He decided he was throwing it from the moment the ball was snapped. No thinking. Just drop back and lob it up. If he has to diagnose anything that ball is landing way out of McLaurin’s reach. 
 

The offense was tailored to him. That doesn’t mean every play call was perfect. It doesn’t mean every play design was perfect. But the offense itself was exactly what he needs to be successful.

 

Kind of agree.  I'm at the point, where I think the only way this could've worked out, was with a revamped line and a vet or two on the WR corps.  Oh and a vet QB that would've made DH work.  But there was no way, anticipation throws were going to be pretty, unless it's moon shots like the one to Terry.  And we know those are few & far between.     

 

Kind of resigned to it not working out, because 1)  it's us & 2)  we have 3 NFL starters on offense, on a good day, right formation, etc.    

 

[GOATFrerotte]

1 hour ago, max21 said:

It’s going to be real fun when Allen stinks up the joint, after a good start last year down the stretch he was absolutely terrible and then we will be back to more QB drama. It really don’t see how he gives us a better chance to win but hey we will see 

 

I love how the entire argument of Haskins defenders is other qbs have played terrible in their first year but grew in to better quarterbacks. But for some reason Allen is who he is because his last 7 games in his first year starting. 🙄

[KDawg]

25 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Just curious here, and surely most of it comes down to lack of anticipation, but why does there never appear to be spacing?  I just don't see concepts forcing decision making or stressing of defenses.    At least lob a few, and get the D on their heels.

 

I can't imagine had he thrown the ball ~1/2 sec, or 1 sec earlier in some cases, that it'd change the fact that Baltimore's entire D was often waiting in tow.  Is that from a coaching lack of trust in him making reads?  I've heard of closing half the field off, but this seems like it's putting all of the action in one place.  

 

 

Kind of agree.  I'm at the point, where I think the only way this could've worked out, was with a revamped line and a vet or two on the WR corps.  Oh and a vet QB that would've made DH work.  But there was no way, anticipation throws were going to be pretty, unless it's moon shots like the one to Terry.  And we know those are few & far between.     

 

Kind of resigned to it not working out, because 1)  it's us & 2)  we have 3 NFL starters on offense, on a good day, right formation, etc.    

 

I think the spacing stuff is threefold: 1) when the screenshots are shown, 2) some shoddy play design that needs work, 3) I think there may be receivers running the wrong routes at times. 
 

And then add the lack of anticipation to it as well... didn’t mean to leave that out of the post. Hence... the edit.
 

I think the coaching staff has distrust in his decision making and setting protections. You can see when you watch it back how many open guys he missed to throw the check down. He even looked right at the guy wide open but decided to throw the check down. Your quarterback can’t do that.

 

Now, to the 23 year old point. He doesn’t understand, no matter how many times he’s told, that if you’re going to make mistakes to make them aggressively. He throws to check downs because I think he was afraid of picks... and that’s what he did at Ohio State. It’s where his comfort level is. And his thought is completions aren’t going to bench him, but turnovers will. 
 

If that was the thought process, it’s the wrong one for him as I’m sure he is now aware. And maybe this helps him if he lands somewhere else. It’s a big time learning experience for many reasons... on and off the field. 
 

I truly do wish the best for the guy. It just didn’t work in DC.

[GOATFrerotte]

I honestly think what we're seeing with the screen shots is Haskins not letting plays develop. Crossing routes, receivers not making their breaks or getting in windows. Haskins made his decisions to throw the check down before anything could even materialize downfield. I'm sure Turner understands how to space receivers and get them in different zones. 

[Nerm]

14 hours ago, BraveWarrior said:

 Is it fair to use that 4th down play as a litmus test? I think so. Yes, the coverage was going to be tough to throw against, and the chances for success were not good. But he did have time, and he did have room to move to create something. Going to the check down who was never going to score showed he doesn't have the confidence to make a play, or the balls to take a chance. I keep thinking of what a young Brett Favre would have done there. My guess is he would have taken some kind of chance, any chance, on getting the ball to someone in the endzone, or at least at the goal line. And Favre might have thrown an INT, but he had the mentality that he was going to try. It's like the lottery - you probably won't win, but you definitely won't win if you don't buy a ticket.  

 

He got a vote of no confidence by his new coach, and he didn't react to it well, as we see more and more with young, entitled pro athletes. No reason to think RIvera wants to get him back out there to try again any time soon.         

 

         

 

The whole debate about the 4th down play reminds me of the debate Cowboys fans had for months following Tony Romo's 2nd season.  At the end of their playoff game against the Giants, the Cowboys had a 4th and 11 on the 23 with around 10 seconds left in the game.  Romo dropped back and couldn't find anyone open, so he lofted the ball into the endzone to give a WR a chance to get the jump ball or draw a flag.  People spent months arguing about if that was a choke.  My position was that he made the right call. Just about any throw that was not a TD ended the Cowboys season, so you either accept a probable INT to give the team a chance, or you throw a safer pass that you know will end in a loss.  I always argued that he got too much heat for the turnover.  

 

Fast forward to 2013, the Cowboys had a similar situation against the Redskins in week 16 where the Cowboys had a 4th and goal from the 10, down by 6 with one minute left.  Any play that is not a TD eliminates Dallas from playoff contention (barring a bailout call from the refs).  Romo dropped back, couldn't find anyone in the endzone, so he extends the play by running to his right, pump faking, and waiting for his RB to get to the end zone before throwing to his RB for the go ahead score.  

 

I guess my point is that if people would have criticized Haskins for lobbing a jump ball to someone double covered on 4th down, I would have argued that he did the right thing, especially at this point in his development.  The most important thing that Haskins can be doing at this point is asking himself what he can do differently when the situation comes up again.  Whether he was put in a "fair" situation should not be his focus.  His focus needs to be on what he would do differently going forward when facing 4th down plays where his WRs are not open.  A lob to the endzone into heavy coverage would have been a reasonable option IMO, even though the odds of it working out are very low.  I would also want to see him actually having these discussions with his RBs and WRs.  What does he want them to be doing if they cant get open on their routs?

 

[celticsalmon]

After Haskins dropped to the 15th spot in the NFL Draft he wrote: 

“To be honest, I'm more motivated than ever before. I’ve got a chip on my shoulder… the league done messed up.”  Thne he takes Joe Thiesman's Number 7.  Attitude!

 

[Taylor 36]

1 hour ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

I love how the entire argument of Haskins defenders is other qbs have played terrible in their first year but grew in to better quarterbacks. But for some reason Allen is who he is because his last 7 games in his first year starting. 🙄

Not that I expect much out of Allen (though, I expect he will look better than Haskins, but that's a low bar), but this is a very fair and valid point.