2018 Draft Day Thread

[Burgold]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

My problem with the Payne pick is IMO he's not a game changer albeit he fills a big need -- Derwin James who they passed on I think will be a dynamic game changer, Edmonds maybe too. 

 

I'm going to disagree with you in a very old school way. Dave Butz was a game changer. He wasn't Mann or Manley who were credited as being the game changers and made the huge play, but in a very real way Dave Butz changed every game he played in. Why? Because he changed how the opponents played the run. They knew the middle of the defense was a brick wall and you weren't going to get very far attacking it. Would teams go for it on 4th and one against Dave Butz? Very, very rarely. Last year, did teams go for 4th and 1 against Hood? Hell, would they go for 4th and 2 against Hood and our D Line? Way, way, way too often.

 

Our D Line was disrespected. I bet teams went on fourth down more often against the 'skins (especially in early quarters) more than against any other team. Would that happen with Dave Butz or Darryl Grant manning the middle? No way! So, if Payne is a GREAT run stopper then he is a game changer.

[LD0506]

Seriously? There was a ton of blowback about "There they go again, throwing money at a FA"

 

No, my point was really that they care/worry far too much about what anyone says when IMO they ought to focused on managing the team.

 

"They see it as risky" to make bold moves w/ FAs? They shouldn't give one small **** about the PR, Norman was a good signing for the team, period. The problem is that it wasn't strictly about making an upgrade, they sweat and squirm about the "optics". I feel like that was an issue with Cousins, they got dug in and couldn't find a way out that didn't have them losing face.

 

Right now, this afternoon, there is no true valid test of this draft until we see the guys play, but the manner in which they conducted the draft, solidly choosing players with quality upside that fit in here and ought to add to the roster without any jr high drama gets my vote. Honestly, there have been years when by the middle of day 2 I was seriously wondering about binge drinking again, I didn't get that at all this time. I expect it's just me but this one felt different, almost (dare I say it) professional?

[Darrell Green Fan]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with your 2nd point.  But I think you running with "killer" in the wrong way.  I didn't say a good draft is three pro bowlers.  3 pro bowlers isn't just a good draft its a legendary one -- GM going to the hall of fame kind of draft.    The irony though is Scherff has been a pro bowler, Crowder an alternate.  But I am not arguing that they got 3 pro bowlers. 1 for sure, though.

 

You are making a very good argument.   I guess the rub is what was meant by "Killer" and "Awesome".  I took that to mean more than a good guard at 5 and two good at times but so far inconsistent players. 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

You are making a very good argument.   I guess the rub is what was meant by "Killer" and "Awesome".  I took that to mean more than a good guard at 5 and two good at times but so far inconsistent players. 

 

I get the angst about Scherff.   He wasn't my top pick at that position though I was cool with the pick.  I had the cool privilege of talking to Scot about it directly.  He said to me (he said it publicly, too) is he wanted to build the trenches and do it with a tone setter.

 

The Cravens pick is interesting if I had to combine his narrative to me and what some beat guys have said.  It looks like they had a different player in mind at that pick, I know it was a D lineman (I think it was J. Reed from Alabama) but he was surprisingly taken before their pick. (I got that from him)  Cooley-Sheehan seem to be in the know about the rest (they talked about it on their show), and that is they didn't do enough vetting on Cravens.  They liked the player but going after him wasn't the initial design -- so they missed on the person by not digging in enough.  Clearly, their west coast scout has to take some blame here -- they are the ones who are in best position to dig on that stuff deep.  

 

As for Doctson, we've heard multiple times they wanted Ryan Kelly -- another Alabama guy but he got taken.  And supposedly the guy who lobbied to death for Doctson was Sean McVay.  Supposedly they still really like Doctson and think he will emerge this season will see.  Heck Cravens might too for all we know -- he looks like a good player but just a weird dude.  

 

Going back to Scheff the tone setter.  I like the idea of him getting to the 2nd level and blocking for Guice.  Guice like Scherff will maul defenders.  Part of the reason why I love Guice is the dude is a tone setter, too.  He plays with fire.  IMO we got too many quiet-laid back dudes on offense

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

Let's be grateful Synder didn't do something stupid.  I wanted a different approach, I wanted them to go for another Sherff last year and this year but when it was clear they wouldn't be able to resign Cousins Snyder could have been really stupid and trade up for Mayfield or some other idiot move.  Instead he traded for Smith and I guess went BPA and tried to get help on both sides of the ball.  Not the approach I wanted but so more sensible than what might have been.  It's time to hope these choices work out.

[Playaction2Sanders]

SI gave us a C+ on our draft. Interesting..

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Let's be grateful Synder didn't do something stupid.  I wanted a different approach, I wanted them to go for another Sherff last year and this year but when it was clear they wouldn't be able to resign Cousins Snyder could have been really stupid and trade up for Mayfield or some other idiot move.  Instead he traded for Smith and I guess went BPA and tried to get help on both sides of the ball.  Not the approach I wanted but so more sensible than what might have been.  It's time to hope these choices work out.

 

I am with you on Snyder.  Like you, I liked Kirk and thought it was a big blunder to play it the way they did.    We differ on the QB thing -- I like Alex Smith but don't love that he's 34 and we gave up capital and youth to get him.

 

I think you will be though pleasantly surprised with Guice.  Kirk had a crap running game to work with.  I think Alex will have a good running game -- even with the gap at LG.   This dude IMO is at a minimum Clinton Portis.  Will see.

[skinny21]

10 minutes ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

SI gave us a C+ on our draft. Interesting..

Can’t really say I blame them too much.    Not that I would give it the same grade, but if someone had Payne as a bit of a reach, had concerns about Guice’s personality, had Settle rated as a 5th rounder, and didn’t see how Christian and Apke really fit - especially given our big need for a LG and more pressing needs like corner, especially slot corner  and speed rusher.  

 

For me, 

Payne - addresses a huge need - NT/run stuffer - and offers us rotational DT.  

 

Guice is the 2nd best back in this class.  

 

Christian is going to get a ton of reps as Williams and Moses are healing.  He ups our depth and allows Nsheke to move inside (and gives us a replacement next year for Nsheke).

 

Apke is insurance for Nicholson with a lot of upside.  Should be a good STer for us too, which we badly needed.  

 

Settle gives us another rotational NT/DT/DE where we really needed added depth

 

Hamilton is good ILB depth (a Compton type but better) and could become Brown’s replacement.  

 

Stroman - extra competition for the slot and learned under Gray... which is huge 

 

Quin - potential slot receiver, good depth and insurance for Crowder.  

 

ST, especially punt returns, is a big bonus for our 7th rounders.  

 

We didn’t get our LG, but otherwise this draft really helps the team with a couple starters, added depth/competition, STers, and potential long term replacements in several spots.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

I'm going to disagree with you in a very old school way. Dave Butz was a game changer. He wasn't Mann or Manley who were credited as being the game changers and made the huge play, but in a very real way Dave Butz changed every game he played in. Why? Because he changed how the opponents played the run. They knew the middle of the defense was a brick wall and you weren't going to get very far attacking it. Would teams go for it on 4th and one against Dave Butz? Very, very rarely. Last year, did teams go for 4th and 1 against Hood? Hell, would they go for 4th and 2 against Hood and our D Line? Way, way, way too often.

 

Our D Line was disrespected. I bet teams went on fourth down more often against the 'skins (especially in early quarters) more than against any other team. Would that happen with Dave Butz or Darryl Grant manning the middle? No way! So, if Payne is a GREAT run stopper then he is a game changer.

 

Good points but they all have zero to do with my point.  I've made similar point to yours more times than I'd like to remember on the FA thread.   

 

The draft IMO is about finding talent.  Is this player a 98 versus an 85 for example?  If the draft is about picking players based on your "need" shopping list.  Your point is dead on. 

 

But I am not going to bash Payne.  I like him as a player.  I don't think he is worthy of the 13th pick in the draft and that has zero to do about what I think of the nose tackle position in theory. 

 

I never watched the PFF take about both players until now.  They look at Payne as a 2nd rounder.  If you have a few minutes listen to what they say about Payne and then watch what they say about D. James.  I don't always agree with PFF but they nail my argument.

 

 

Then watch, the one on Derwin James

 

 

[Playaction2Sanders]

8 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Can’t really say I blame them too much.    Not that I would give it the same grade, but if someone had Payne as a bit of a reach, had concerns about Guice’s personality, had Settle rated as a 5th rounder, and didn’t see how Christian and Apke really fit - especially given our big need for a LG and more pressing needs like corner, especially slot corner  and speed rusher.  

 

For me, 

Payne - addresses a huge need - NT/run stuffer - and offers us rotational DT.  

 

Guice is the 2nd best back in this class.  

 

Christian is going to get a ton of reps as Williams and Moses are healing.  He ups our depth and allows Nsheke to move inside (and gives us a replacement next year for Nsheke).

 

Apke is insurance for Nicholson with a lot of upside.  Should be a good STer for us too, which we badly needed.  

 

Settle gives us another rotational NT/DT/DE where we really needed added depth

 

Hamilton is good ILB depth (a Compton type but better) and could become Brown’s replacement.  

 

Stroman - extra competition for the slot and learned under Gray... which is huge 

 

Quin - potential slot receiver, good depth and insurance for Crowder.  

 

ST, especially punt returns, is a big bonus for our 7th rounders.  

 

We didn’t get our LG, but otherwise this draft really helps the team with a couple starters, added depth/competition, STers, and potential long term replacements in several spots.  

 

I think the time have gotten a legit guard would have been 2nd or 3rd round, there weren't really any good ones after that when you look at all the mock drafts and you hear all the experts.. I think Guice falling probably threw a wrench in the plan, and we needed to address RB. Think of it this way, if we did go Guard 2nd round we probably don't address RB at all and everyone criticizes the fact we didn't..

 

At CB, I'm pretty sure we have high hopes on Moreau replacing Fuller, and Scandrick is a filler guy till we address corner next draft..Not to mention we have Holsey, and then you add Stroman

 

DLine has been our issue for over a decade. We rarely ever addressed it until a couple seasons ago with Ioannidis. Now we have youth and certainly depth there and probably don't have to worry about it for a bit. 

 

On paper yes, you can address every need but who knows what the FO and scouts really think about the talent thats out there..

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

I'm going to disagree with you in a very old school way. Dave Butz was a game changer. He wasn't Mann or Manley who were credited as being the game changers and made the huge play, but in a very real way Dave Butz changed every game he played in. Why? Because he changed how the opponents played the run. They knew the middle of the defense was a brick wall and you weren't going to get very far attacking it. Would teams go for it on 4th and one against Dave Butz? Very, very rarely. Last year, did teams go for 4th and 1 against Hood? Hell, would they go for 4th and 2 against Hood and our D Line? Way, way, way too often.

 

Our D Line was disrespected. I bet teams went on fourth down more often against the 'skins (especially in early quarters) more than against any other team. Would that happen with Dave Butz or Darryl Grant manning the middle? No way! So, if Payne is a GREAT run stopper then he is a game changer.

 

Yep...stopping the run changes the game. Or at least it changes how Redskins games tended to play out lol...

[Newera]

11 draft picks next year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

"They see it as risky" to make bold moves w/ FAs? They shouldn't give one small **** about the PR, Norman was a good signing for the team, period. The problem is that it wasn't strictly about making an upgrade, they sweat and squirm about the "optics".

 

I feel the exact opposite...I don't think they give a rats ass about "optics" anymore than any other team would. The only optics I think Dan cares about are ones like seeing a half-empty stadium on TV while the team ****s all over itself in a loss or signs being held up by fans during games telling him to sell the team. 

 

But worrying about how it will look if they do "this" or sign "this" player or make "this" move?...Fans and a few media members will chalk up stuff as being reactionary moves, but there's far more evidence that Snyder and Allen couldn't care less what anyone thinks in terms of moves they make if they truly believe the moves will result in wins.

[mistertim]

I think that's the big question with regards to drafting Payne so high. Who are you going to get? The guy from the championship game who was getting to the QB, shooting gaps, being disruptive in the backfield, or the guy from most of the rest of the tape who was solid against the run, unimpressive while pass rushing, and seemed to basically disappear at times? I'm assuming (and hoping) that the D coaches for the Skins saw the tape and said "he has the tools for us to work on his pass rushing" and it wasn't a pure need based pick for a run stuffer. 

 

Don't get me wrong, stopping the run is very important but generally if you take a interior DL guy in the top half of the 1st round in today's NFL that means he can stop the run and rush the passer and do both very well. If you want more of a pure big body run stuffer you can find those in the later rounds (Hill, Nnadi, Settle for example). Time will tell. If the championship game is an indication it certainly seems like Payne has the tools to be a good pass rusher, with some polishing up on his technique. I just think it can be dangerous to take a one or two game sample and base hopes on that.

 

I don't dislike Payne the player. I think he is solid and there's almost zero chance for him to be a bust (unlike Vea who I think has a pretty fair chance of crash landing into Bustville, USA). But until I see him be a disruptive presence and be able to shoot gaps and rush the passer more consistently in the NFL I'll just regard him as drafted too high for a run stopper.

[RWJ]

8 minutes ago, Newera said:

11 draft picks next year.

And that's just for now.  No telling what we end up with before/during the 2019 draft.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

So we got 3 UDFA i thought we could/should draft in 4th/5th round range. Blanding, Welsh, Cobb. 

 

Super interesting. Those 3 could make the squad. Really surprised Blanding didn’t get drafted. He seemed cemented in that 3-5 round range. Same with Cobb. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

And that's just for now.  No telling what we end up with before/during the 2019 draft.

 

Nice job by the way on Settle.  You were all over him I recall on the draft thread.

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nice job by the way on Settle.  You were all over him I recall on the draft thread.

Thank you, SIP.  Tape seemed to show me he could be a very good player.  Tomsula needs to keep the weight off of him to a degree and think he can play a big role on our D.  

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

So we got 3 UDFA i thought we could/should draft in 4th/5th round range. Blanding, Welsh, Cobb. 

 

Super interesting. Those 3 could make the squad. Really surprised Blanding didn’t get drafted. He seemed cemented in that 3-5 round range. Same with Cobb. 

 

Yeah, IMO they did great, I wouldn't sleep on T. Parris, who was graded by some as a 5th-6th rounder.   Typically, we tend to lose out on the UDFA big names.  This year we got them. 

[Burgold]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah, IMO they did great, I wouldn't sleep on T. Parris, who was graded by some as a 5th-6th rounder.   Typically, we tend to lose out on the UDFA big names.  This year we got them. 

Maybe Doug Williams was on the phone trying to recruit them instead of Allen?

[SWFLSkins]

2 hours ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

SI gave us a C+ on our draft. Interesting..

 

Most were a B, I saw one A,, I don't get it, WE got two first rounders, a third round pick back, and some real potential late in the draft, That's an A all day in my book. 

[madden lot]

3 hours ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

SI gave us a C+ on our draft. Interesting..

I bet they gave giants eagles cowboys all A's

[bh32]

11 minutes ago, madden lot said:

I bet they gave giants eagles cowboys all A's

Of course they did..I can understand the Giants,But the Eagles and Cowboys is just them showing that they are biased towards them

[Burgold]

9 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Most were a B, I saw one A,, I don't get it, WE got two first rounders, a third round pick back, and some real potential late in the draft, That's an A all day in my book. 

I'd rate our draft higher too. I'd say B+ or A-.

 

The one thing I would say is that while I liked the trade back to net the extra third our choice with that third might have been one of our more questionable picks. So, great trade and uncertain execution. So maybe that's what the national draft graders are thinking?

 

My take is

 

Payne A for need and B for value

Guice A for need A for value

Christian C for need C for value

Apke B for need C for value

Settle A for need A for value

Hamilton B for need B/A for value

Stroman B for need B for value

Quinn C for need and A for value

 

Now, I just pulled every singe value and need grade off the top of my head, but that's my first blush thinking. To me, that's a strong B/weak A draft.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

 Positing the Payne pick as a bad choice because of Derwin James being available is fools gold.  Has anyone stopped to think maybe Derwin James is totally overrated? Looks like at least 16 teams felt that way. To mention this guy in the same breath as ST is absolutely blasphemous. And to paint Payne as a not worth the 13th pick B/c James was there is IMO silly. 

 

Take a good look at James’ body of actual work and you won’t find this generational football talent. You will find a A+ body with amazing measurables, but not the instincts, gameplay, and game changer some people are claiming. This is all in addition to having a significant injury history. Just my 2cents.