2018 Draft Day Thread

[Tay]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Hoffman also said in another segment was that he was assuming the same grade part of it.  He said he knew the debate was between James and Payne.  Doug who was in the actual room said there was flat out disagreement on it.  He would know.   Why would he make up that there was dissension? 

Debate, Disagreement, etc.

 

That happened. They had a discussion, and ultimately went with Payne because of need.

 

I'm a little surprised that there was debate on their first pick. You would expect every scenario to be sorted prior to draft day.

 

I'm just saying I get the sense that they had similar grades on the players, and they leaned need.

 

At the moment I preferred James, but I'm okay with Payne.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Tay said:

Debate, Disagreement, etc.

 

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with it.  But the way Doug described it there were people in that room who wanted them to take James.  I think that was part of the reason why Cooley was floored by the pick (based on a private conversation with Jay he said he had that day) and some beat guys said they went with need at 13 not BPA. 

[mistertim]

Yeah that's why I was wondering if maybe there were more people on board with James but who might have flipped to Payne out of need once the Giants went with Barkley. That could be a cause of dissent/argument/debate/whatever. If you had most people on board with James over Payne as pure BPA but then a few people sort of "panic changed" their opinion to Payne for need after the Barkley pick and it ended up more 50/50 between those who wanted James and those who wanted Payne.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

Payne probably helps this team more next season than James, although James probably has a better chance at being a HOF when its all said and done. 

 

I think Jay and Bruce both need winning seasons to stay on so im not surprised they went with the more sure, help you win tomorrow prospect. 

 

But I am disappointed they dont go pure BPA and allow team need for upcoming year to dictate their "BPA to the redskins" board. 

 

Is what it is.

 

Payne should be a very solid player, ceiling seems to be a fringe pro bowl player. 

 

James ceiling seems to be potential HOF player. Ill check back in 10 years along w Scherff vs Leonard Williams.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

As someone who is very hard on Bruce, I feel obligated to chime in here and say that I walk away from this draft feeling pretty good.  The only real head scratcher for me was the swing tackle in the 3rd.  My only real complaint is not walking out of the draft with a new guard.  I think the Payne/James ordeal will live on like Scherff/Williams for some time among the fanbase.  I personally like Payne as a player and trust his Alabama pedigree, but I had my heart set on Vea of whom the Bucs shocked the hell out of me by taking him right before we had the opportunity.

 

All that said, on my list of problems with Bruce running the show, the draft is near the bottom of the list.  It's one of the very few things I give him any credit for and that's not treating draft picks like baseball cards and walking into drafts with few selections.

[WelshSkinsFan]

I would just add to all of the talk about James high ceiling and his potential to be a more generational player than Payne it also cannot be ignored that his floor is pretty low too whereas Payne is a lot less likely to be a bust.  The issue with taking a guy like James at this point is you have to be ok with the prospect that he does not help you this year and potentially turns into a bust and it would need a GM who is on much surer ground than BA to make that call. 

[Est.1974]

I would have thought the whole Payne/James thing would have been clearly defined pre draft, the board is set and that's what you go with. I suspect there would have been some pro James people leading up to the draft who kind of brought the debate back to the table when he fell to our pick.

 

Healthy debate, but there would be no reason to flip our board when on the clock. For me, Payne will have been higher on our board than James. The debate goes around the table again, fair enough one last time, then the pick is made per the pre draft defined ranking.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

Just some food for thought...doesn't really mean anything but I thought it was interesting.

 

Below are player comps for two players from the same "scouting" website.  I took out the names of the players (****).  One is James and the other is Mark Barron:

 

Player Comparison: Adrian Wilson. **** could be an NFL player who turns out to be similar to Wilson. Wilson has been one of the best strong safeties in the NFL over the past decade. He was a third-round pick in 2001 out of North Carolina State, but Wilson obviously should have been drafted in the first round. 

 

Both Wilson and **** are physical football players that are always around the ball. Wilson (6-3, 230) is heavier than ****, but when he entered the NFL, he was 213 pounds. Over his impressive career, Wilson has been a five-time Pro Bowler and three-time All-Pro selection. **** has a similar game to Wilson, and he has the potential to be a special strong safety. 

 

Player Comparison: Adrian Wilson. I think that **** could be similar to Wilson at the next level. For a decade, Wilson was one of the best strong safeties in the NFL. He was a third-round pick in 2001 out of N.C. State, but obviously he should have been drafted higher. **** will be a first-rounder like Wilson should have been. 

 

Both Wilson and **** are physical football players who are always around the ball. Wilson (6-3, 230) is slightly bigger than ****, but they are similar in size and Wilson entered the NFL he was 213 pounds. Over his impressive career, Wilson was a five-time Pro Bowler and three-time All-Pro selection. **** has a similar game to Wilson and could be a potential special strong safety. 

 

 

[Est.1974]

Just now, WelshSkinsFan said:

I would just add to all of the talk about James high ceiling and his potential to be a more generational player than Payne it also cannot be ignored that his floor is pretty low too whereas Payne is a lot less likely to be a bust.  The issue with taking a guy like James at this point is you have to be ok with the prospect that he does not help you this year and potentially turns into a bust and it would need a GM who is on much surer ground than BA to make that call. 

 

Agreed on Payne, he appears almost bust proof. He also looks like a grounded guy, not sure James fell into that category but I cant say that for sure.

 

Plus, when you are in the process of lining up Guice on day 2, maybe a fool proof pick in the first is a good shout.

 

Im generally pretty surprised at the reaction to the Payne selection. Guy nailed it on the biggest stage of his career and was dominant. He's a perfect fit on this DL.

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Yeah that's why I was wondering if maybe there were more people on board with James but who might have flipped to Payne out of need once the Giants went with Barkley. That could be a cause of dissent/argument/debate/whatever. If you had most people on board with James over Payne as pure BPA but then a few people sort of "panic changed" their opinion to Payne for need after the Barkley pick and it ended up more 50/50 between those who wanted James and those who wanted Payne.

 

They way Doug described it, it didn't sound like everyone flipped.  It was that some voted for James, some voted for Payne.  Either Payne had more votes or the key decision maker/makers picked Payne.

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

I would have thought the whole Payne/James thing would have been clearly defined pre draft, the board is set and that's what you go with. I suspect there would have been some pro James people leading up to the draft who kind of brought the debate back to the table when he fell to our pick.

 

Healthy debate, but there would be no reason to flip our board when on the clock. For me, Payne will have been higher on our board than James. The debate goes around the table again, fair enough one last time, then the pick is made per the pre draft defined ranking.

 

It seems like part of the surprise that they took Payne -- as for Cooley and some of the beat guys, it came off like they indeed flipped their draft board on draft day.  I forgot which guy had which narrative but one of them thought the Giants taking Barkley was the catalyst for it.  But who knows.  

 

No biggie.  Only reason why I find it interesting relates to the debate here.  Some of the people here (me included) saying James should have been the pick -- seems like we had some company within that draft room.  To me that seems pretty clear,

 

And again its not James in a vacuum but as Rouhier put it today -- James + Hankins >>>>> Just Payne.

38 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

Im generally pretty surprised at the reaction to the Payne selection. Guy nailed it on the biggest stage of his career and was dominant. He's a perfect fit on this DL.

 

those games were so remarkable because they were so different than his typical game.   Having watched some of those typical games, I like him but not blown away by him as a nose the way I am with some others I watch in the NFL like Damon Harrison who to me is a monster.

 

As for James maybe more likely to be a bust.  If you digest his story -- the dude is a workaholic-mega locker room leader-good guy on a Rocky level -- so doubt he will flame out in the NFL.  But you never know will see. 

[Tay]

James is an elite player.

 

The fact that he went to the Chargers and did not drop to the Cowboys made me feel much better about day 1.

 

IMO the only thing that could stop James from being elite is injury. That kid is special.

[Warhead36]

I'm never going to be upset about taking a lineman over a backend player.

 

Football is won up front. We had Sean Taylor too and didn't win squat.

[Est.1974]

@Skinsinparadise that's a fair enough take. 

 

I'd add it does seem Cooley isn't quite as informed he thinks, maybe he and a few others get fed the occasional bum note. Also, Hankins+James over Payne is true, although we have nothing to suggest, yet, that Hankins even wants or wanted to be here. So that is a somewhat moot point at present.

 

That said, I'd still offer more money for Hankins now after our DL cuts. Shift Payne to end and start Payne/Hankins/Allen. With Ion Man, Settle, plus the best of the rest as backups is one hell of a DL group.

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

57 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They way Doug described it, it didn't sound like everyone flipped.  It was that some voted for James, some voted for Payne.  Either Payne had more votes or the key decision maker/makers picked Payne.

 

And I'm still back to wondering just who in that room made the final decision. Why do we not have that answer?

 

But I have to agree witj @BatteredFanSyndrome.  I have shown hate for Bruce as well but I'm happy with this draft. As I said I get nervous at passing on the next Sean Taylor, and safeties help in the run game as well, but I went in wanting either Vea or Payne so I'm OK with the pick if they really did have them rated even.  

 

If they had come out of the draft with a NT, RB, OG, WR, and CB I would have been convinced they passed better players to fill needs. But they didn't do that and force the pick of a guard just to get a guard so that makes me happy.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

@Skinsinparadise that's a fair enough take. 

 

I'd add it does seem Cooley isn't quite as informed he thinks, maybe he Andy other get fed the occasional bum note. Also, Hankins+James over Payne is true, although we have nothing to suggest, yet, that Hankins even wants or wanted to be here. So that is a somewhat moot point at present.

 

That said, I'd still offer more money for Hankins now after our DL cuts. Shift Payne to end and start Payne/Hankins/Allen. With Ion Man, Settle, plus the best of the rest as backups is one hell of a DL group.

 

 

 

 

Cooley isn't the only one on hearing James was higher on the board though, just about every beat guy echoed James and Fitzpatrick were higher on their board than Payne.  But whatever, tired of making the point on my end.  It is what it is.  I think Michael Phillips on 106.7 summed it up just now very well for me -- James will likely be a star, Edmonds too but they needed Payne more.  I agree with the need based argument -- and acceding the other guys are better but they were in a bind and had to go to DT for that reason-- but that's me. 

 

As for Hankins, I think he's redundant now with the signing of Settle and Payne.  For me I'd chase now Cromartie and a LG.  As for which LG, I got to think about that, not a lot out there.

[skinfan2k]

Cooley's sources are pretty much gone from the park.  He had McVay thats about it.  

[SWFLSkins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They way Doug described it, it didn't sound like everyone flipped.  It was that some voted for James, some voted for Payne.  Either Payne had more votes or the key decision maker/makers picked Payne.

 

Or they tossed a coin in the air,,,,,hahhaa, or they said hey, WE love both these guys, but can WE agree on one thing? THE RUN KILLED US LAST YR. Everybody building lines, WE must also. 

 

And PFF doesn't love Payne, but who cares. 

[Going Commando]

Why is it so hard to accept the probability that the team had Payne graded equal to or better than James?

 

All I heard pre-draft was that the team was going to pick James if he was available and all of that talk was wrong, plain and simple.  The people reporting that passed the information off with far more surety than they should have.  The only thing this little episode demonstrates is that the talking heads who pretend they know the team's draft board don't.

[Long n Left]

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Why is it so hard to accept the probability that the team had Payne graded equal to or better than James?

 

All I heard pre-draft was that the team was going to pick James if he was available and all of that talk was wrong, plain and simple.  The people reporting that passed the information off with far more surety than they should have.  The only thing this little episode demonstrates is that the talking heads who pretend they know the team's draft board don't.

I'll take it a step further. The talking heads that pretend they know ANYTHING, don't.

[Skinsinparadise]

Beat guys actually were eerily on the money.  They said team preference was to go DT in round 1 Vea or Payne.  In the 2nd round, best available RB and they had a man crush on Guice.  That's exactly what happened.  Cooley actually said (it made the NFL Network) and ditto TK on the board their ideal scenario was to come out of the draft with both Payne and Guice.  That's exactly what went down.   

 

The twist was every beat guy pretty much said (ditto TK on the board, resident insider) they will take D. James or Fitzpatrick if they happened to fall (but they didn't expect they would) over Payne. 

 

According to Doug there were people in the draft room who indeed wanted to take James.  But they were overridden by others and Payne it was.

 

Not the end of the world, it is what it is., will see how it plays out.  I think Payne is a good player. James I think is a great player.  That's part of what makes the draft fun, see how it pans out in reality, will see.  I said after they took Payne that I won't be mad about it if they took Guice in the 2nd.  And they did take Guice.  Serenity now and all is right in Redskins land for me.  

 

 

[bh32]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Beat guys actually were eerily on the money.  They said team preference was to go DT in round 1 Vea or Payne.  In the 2nd round, best available RB and they had a man crush on Guice.  That's exactly what happened.  Cooley actually said (it made the NFL Network) and ditto TK on the board their ideal scenario was to come out of the draft with both Payne and Guice.  That's exactly what went down.   

 

The twist was every beat guy pretty much said (ditto TK on the board, resident insider) they will take D. James or Fitzpatrick if they happened to fall (but they didn't expect they would) over Payne. 

 

According to Doug there were people in the draft room who indeed wanted to take James.  But they were overridden by others and Payne it was.

 

Not the end of the world, it is what it is., will see how it plays out.  I think Payne is a good player. James I think is a great player.  That's part of what makes the draft fun, see how it pans out in reality, will see.  I said after they took Payne that I won't be mad about it if they took Guice in the 2nd.  And they did take Guice.  Serenity now and all is right in Redskins land for me.  

 

Maybe next year if a top rated DB comes out than they draft him,But since they didn't fill the void of a DT in FA  they had to go with Payne

 

[skinfan2k]

Teams try to float false information thru their beat guys.  Maybe hyping up James was a ploy to ensure that payne is there at 13

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, bh32 said:

 

 

Your post got nestled in my post.  To respond to it.  I just don't believe in drafting for need.  But I understand the logic behind your point.    No biggie.  If you told me in advance that they'd come out of the draft with both Payne and Guice and got a third rounder.  I'd sign up for that in 2 secs.  So I am over the Derwin James drill.  It's all good.   I am just not pretending in my mind that Payne is this NT beast.  I hope he ends up that guy, though.  It's possible.  He has potential.  Will see.  Big upgrade over Ziggy though so I dig that.

3 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

Teams try to float false information thru their beat guys.  Maybe hyping up James was a ploy to ensure that payne is there at 13

 

Or they changed their mind or as Doug flat out more or less said some people in that room indeed wanted to take Derwin James.  So maybe those were the people the reporters were talking to.   My thing personally has nothing to do with what the reporters thought.  I have my own apples to apples thoughts.  Will see how it all pans out.

[bh32]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Your post got nestled in my post.  To respond to it.  I just don't believe in drafting for need.  But I understand the logic behind your point.    No biggie.  If you told me in advance that they'd come out of the draft with both Payne and Guice and got a third rounder.  I'd sign up for that in 2 secs.  So I am over the Derwin James drill.  It's all good.   I am just not pretending Payne is this NT beast.  I hope he ends up that guy, though.  It's possible.  He has potential.  Will see. 

 

Or they changed their mind or as Doug flat out more or less said some people in that room indeed wanted to take Derwin James.  So maybe those were the people the reporters were talking to.  

I just don't see a saftey having more of an effect on this defense as Payne does..Lets get real Sean Taylor was a once in a lifetime player probably played with better players on Defense and it still didn't put them over the top...None of these safety's in this draft are even close to him in talent or even on Laron Landry's level when he came out..