2018 Draft Day Thread

[Darrell Green Fan]

I've said this before but apparently we still need to say it.  Scott M's tenure here was simply not good. They won after he got here with nearly every prominent player already on the roster, they won (well winning is relative but this is winning to the Redskins) once they put a real QB behind center. But his overall tenure had 2 bad drafts.  As mentioned earlier taking a guard at 5 was fishing in a barrel, nearly as safe as it can get.  But after that the only good picks appears to be Jamison Crowder, who is not as good as the receiver he passed on in Diggs,  and possibly Doctson. But the jury's still out on both of them, the rest of the picks stunk.  And then there were the free agent signings, most of them flat out sucked as well.

 

Just stop already with the Scott M love, it is undeserved.  

[Bonez3]

List of favorite picks in order of liking:

 

1) Guice- Initially was not excited as I thought he was fraud after combine reports. Watched clip about his childhood and got feel for the kind of person he probably is and became instant fan. Hope he rams it down Philly's throat for years to come. 

 

2) Settle- I'm sorry, his tape is great. I see him as a 1-2 down player, just what you would want in late rounds. I think he has ability to disrupt games in the NFL. Now with the depth (that's right Skins fans, DL depth) we can probably utilize him as he was made for.

 

3) Christan- This is such a necessary pick. Our current backup swing OT is up there in age and injured last year. We were decimated overall at the position last year. We are projecting to the future and filling in talent and team building.

 

4) Apke- Wild card here. I think coaches have vision for him. Gonna have the S'ua feel with athleticism (hybrid but like S/CB, not S/LB) but won't be a head case. Good pedigree and actually behaves like a football player by all accounts

 

5) Stroman- Just wow, highlights make him look like 3rd round talent. Add in return potential and I'm going on record right now and guaranteeing he makes 52 man roster

 

6) Payne- Nice pick, not a surefire instant player like Allen. So, since he was actually chosen higher than Allen it's a little concerning. I think he will translate to the NFL, so not worried. Further, his skillset is based around stuffing the run, which is an obvious area for improvement

 

7) Trey Quinn- This kid could probably plug and play in New England tomorrow. Looks like a Patriots WR clone. I will take odds that Stroman and Quinn make 52 man roster

 

8) Hamilton- Love that he's a cerebral LB, but after 2 injuries and questions if he'll even be ready for season I can't be excited about that. Add in the fact we traded up to get him, meh. Hope he gets well and definitely rooting for him. He'll have plenty of former running mates to acclimate with

[Darrell Green Fan]

Only pick I'm not sized about is Apke.  I prefer game tape to combine results but teams never seem to get that.   

13 minutes ago, Burgold said:

My disappointment with Perrine had to do with his power. I didn't expect for the huge runs, but I did think he'd be an answer in short yardage and be a good three yards and a cloud of dust runner because he was supposed to be so tough and strong.  He was not able to push the pile at all when we needed six inches.

 

 

 

Yep. Same thing with Matt Jones, two of the softest big backs I've ever seen.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Its a mantra for most draft geeks if you can get 3 good players out of a draft, its killer good.  If you can get an additional player or two for depth, it makes it a great draft.  With that yardstick, our 2015 draft was killer good.  Not just good.  But VERY good IMO.  It would have been amazingly good if we didn't get unlucky where we lost a safety to a freak injury.  Kiper regraded it after that season as the best draft in the NFL.

 

As for 2016, Ioannidis, Fuller = studs.  They are one player away for making it a good draft.  So its all on Doctson now.  Cravens might end up good but he's obviously is a flake.   Seems like the Eagles are happy with Sudfeld.  They also gave up a 4th round pick in that draft and added 3 picks to the 2017 draft.  I'd grade that draft at a minimum average with Doctson being the TBD X factor.

 

According to Jay and Scott Campbell, Scot's imprint was major on the 2017 draft.    Having said all that, it seemed like Scot needed to go (according to Russell they were good with his personnel acumen but not OK with some personality-antics stuff that surfaced too many times).   Is Kyle Smith (who touted his father and Scot as major influences on him) the guy for the future.  Maybe so.  He's the guy I've been banking on and liked the most in a FO I don't love.  Him and Schaffer. I like this draft a ton.  But tough to judge any draft in reality until it plays out.   But I've never been in love with Scott Campbell's influenced drafts.  Didn't hate them either. 

 

People talk Bruce for better or worse on the drafts but just about everyone who covers the team say Bruce isn't grading players, he just signs off.  So previously a Bruce run draft in theory at least was him signing off mostly on Shanny-Campbell.  Then it was just Campbell.  Then Scot.  Now its Kyle Smith.  Assuming people who cover the team have it right.  Yesterday in theory at least it was the Kyle Smith show.  And I like I said I dig Kyle Smith background so hopefully he's the now and future draft guru.

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Its a mantra for most draft geeks if you can get 3 good players out of a draft, its killer good.  If you can get an additional player or two for depth, it makes it a great draft.  With that yardstick, our 2015 draft was killer good.  Not just good.  But VERY good IMO.  It would have been amazingly good if we didn't get unlucky where we lost a safety to a freak injury.  Kiper regraded it after that season as the best draft in the NFL.

 

As for 2016, Ioannidis, Fuller = studs.  They are one player away for making it a good draft.  So its all on Doctson now.  Cravens might end up good but he's obviously is a flake.   Seems like the Eagles are happy with Sudfeld.  They also gave up a 4th round pick in that draft and added 3 picks to the 2017 draft.  I'd grade that draft at a minimum average with Doctson being the TBD X factor.

 

According to Jay and Scott Campbell, Scot's imprint was major on the 2017 draft.    Having said all that, it seemed like Scot needed to go (according to Russell they were good with his personnel acumen but not OK with some personality-antics stuff that surfaced too many times).   Is Kyle Smith (who touted his father and Scot as major influences on him) the guy for the future.  Maybe so.  He's the guy I've been banking on and liked the most -- at least in theory and just based on what some have said about him.  I like this draft a ton.  But tough to judge any draft in reality until it plays out.   But I've never been in love with Scott Campbell's influenced drafts.  Didn't hate them either. 

 

People talk Bruce for better or worse on the drafts but just about everyone who covers the team say Bruce isn't grading players, he just signs off.  So previously a Bruce run draft in theory at least was him signing off mostly on Shanny-Campbell.  Then it was just Campbell.  Then Scot.  Now its Kyle Smith.  Assuming people who cover the team have it right.  Yesterday in theory at least was the Kyle Smith show.  And I like I said dig Kyle Smith background so hopefully he's the now and future draft guru.

 

 

 The 2015 draft provided a guard that was taken with one of the highest picks ever used on a guard in NFL history.    He not only had to be good he needed to be great and close to HOF material to  justify using a pick that high on a guard.      I know he has made 2 Pro Bowls but is anyone confusing him with Russ Grimm? At any point in time have we seen the team hitch their wagon to Brandon Sherff and watch him clear the path to victory as the Hogs used to do?  Do they run behind him on 4th and 1 and expect a first down most times?  No as of now he is a very good player and a safe, solid pick. Nothing more.  Next we have Preston Smith who is only good half the time and still has a lot to prove, as does Crowder.  I agree in Jarrett, that was a terrible break, but it was too early to predict how he would pan out.   

 

Sorry none of this screams "killer" or "amazing".

[Warhead36]

We've had solid drafts but we just haven't drafted any real dynamic, game changing players. I think the last one we drafted was Reed and that was back in 2013. Doc might be that guy, but he's still super inconsistent. Hopefully Allen, Payne, and Guice can be those guys.

[SWFLSkins]

 

[Zazzaro703]

I really liked this draft a lot. It's all a crap shoot though until these guys actually play in games so we will see. I'm sick and tired of trying to polish up turds and plug them into the RB position so Im really high on Guise. I was expecting the Redskins to do what the Saints did and trade a ransom for whomever they had a crush on and was pleasantly surprised with how the draft went. Although when I was griping about this being the first draft in a few years without Scots input, my dad quietly reminded me that Scots drafts have turned out for the most part to suck eggs while Allens drafts have turned out ok.

 

On a related note, if Guise pans out man is there a lot of firepower at the RB position in the NFC East. Ajayi/Blount/Sproles, Barkley, Guise/Thompon, Elliot/Morris. Ridiculously stacked. Imagine if the Giants had drafted Jackson and paired him with Barkley while Eli plays out his last few seasons, I'm glad the Eagles did the division a solid and traded their pick to the Ravens so the Giants didn't even get a chance to think about it at #34.

[skinzplay]

I have really liked the last three drafts, quite a lot, in fact. Freak injuries and a tendency to under-utilize talent have been more of a problem than the picks themselves. Let's see how we make use of this year's talent infusion. I know that Tomsula is gonna develop his guys and get the most out of them.

[SWFLSkins]

 

[nonniey]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

 

Are you counting comp picks? I didn't realize we gained picks from our trades?

Yes he is which is an assumption right now (a decent one but still an assumption).

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 The 2015 draft provided a guard that was taken with one of the highest picks ever used on a guard in NFL history.    He not only had to be good he needed to be great and close to HOF material to  justify using a pick that high on a guard.      I know he has made 2 Pro Bowls but is anyone confusing him with Russ Grimm? At any point in time have we seen the team hitch their wagon to Brandon Sherff and watch him clear the path to victory as the Hogs used to do?  Do they run behind him on 4th and 1 and expect a first down most times?  No as of now he is a very good player and a safe, solid pick. Nothing more.  Next we have Preston Smith who is only good half the time and still has a lot to prove, as does Crowder.  I agree in Jarrett, that was a terrible break, but it was too early to predict how he would pan out.   

 

Sorry none of this screams "killer" or "amazing".

It’s the aggregate, not the individual players he’s talking about.  We came out of that draft with multiple starters - Scherff, Smith, Crowder and Jarrett - and depth guys - Spaight and Kouandijo, and an in between guy in Reiter.  That’s pretty awesome.  

 

Now, you can make the point that it only went that way because the team lacked talent and depth, but that’s a crazy hit rate.  

31 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We've had solid drafts but we just haven't drafted any real dynamic, game changing players. I think the last one we drafted was Reed and that was back in 2013. Doc might be that guy, but he's still super inconsistent. Hopefully Allen, Payne, and Guice can be those guys.

Yeah, it is/has been a problem for us.  With that said, it’s a little tricky to define game changing players.  Ioannidas was the second best interior pass rusher before his injury.  Is he a game changer?  Smith was one of the best at pressuring the qb... game changer?  Fuller was outstanding, Nicholson was really impressive at FS, and Allen was playing very good ball last year... game changers?

 

If Payne ranks as a top 5 run defender (at his position), will we consider him a game changer?  If our run game became top 10 (ie. a massive upgrade), but Guice isn’t top 5 in explosive plays... would we consider him a game changer?

 

I think the lack of an outstanding receiver, back (though Thompson was a game changer for us) and Reed being injured skewed the perception there.  

 

Right now, injuries aside (which is a huge factor, I know), these are the guys I see with a legitimate chance at being among the best (top 5-10) at what they do.  

 

Williams

Scherff

Moses

Reed

Thompson

Nicholson

Ioannidas

Allen

Smith

Kerrigan

Norman

Guice

Crowder

 

to an extent, Payne, Brown and Swearinger could fit there.  It also depends on how you rate them.  Brown could lead the league in tackles, but how far do you drop him based off coverage issues?  How far do you drop Reed because of blocking issues?  And so on.  

 

I think I prefer the idea of impact players vs game changers... and right now, we have a surprising number of those.  Time will tell if it comes together, and how injuries affect us, but I see a pretty strong team almost across the board.  My only real positional concerns are slot corner and guard, as well as FS depth.  

[skinsfan66]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

My disappointment with Perrine had to do with his power. I didn't expect for the huge runs, but I did think he'd be an answer in short yardage and be a good three yards and a cloud of dust runner because he was supposed to be so tough and strong.  He was not able to push the pile at all when we needed six inches.

Are you counting comp picks? I didn't realize we gained picks from our trades?

Yes I am, it started with free agency that we are going to have 4 more Draft picks next year.  Just a different way of doing things around here.  Also gave Scot no credit for this draft, just the way it is run.  Can you say things  were run this way before he got here? Just the system and the way he learned and taught before he was gone.

[skinsfan66]

15 minutes ago, nonniey said:

Yes he is which is an assumption right now (a decent one but still an assumption).

Its pretty much a fact now, any new player they sign will be a cut or low round FA pickup and we have 5 or more FA players lost with a few more on there way out.  4 picks is max you can gain.  Trades do not count either.  

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for 2016, Ioannidis, Fuller = studs.

 

I think one thing that has become apparent to me over recent FO interviews is that Ioannidis really is highly thought of. He's a key member of our DL group.

[nonniey]

Re: Guard if UFDA Welsh had been drafted anywhere from the 4th-7th rounds few would have bat an eye. You would be talking that this was the player the Redskins took for guard with a possibility to start .  Bottom-line don't think Redskins will go FA to fill the LG position until they see what they have in Welsh and if we got lucky maybe he will do as well a Roullier did last year. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I think between Welsh, Kiandjiao (who finally started playing well) and the flexibility of Nsheke, I think LG is okay. I was higher on Welsh and @nonniey is right if we picked him in the 4/5 round we’d be talking about him as a starter potentially. 

 

Trent - Kiandjiao - Roullier - Scherff - Mosss

 

Welsh, Nsheke, Christian

 

Parris, Kalis to PS

 

would be my OL projection now 

[Burgold]

Once there were the Ramskins. Then, for a confusing period of time there was the Jetskins. Now, beware the Burgundy Tide!

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

It’s the aggregate, not the individual players he’s talking about.  We came out of that draft with multiple starters - Scherff, Smith, Crowder and Jarrett - and depth guys - Spaight and Kouandijo, and an in between guy in Reiter.  That’s pretty awesome.  

 

 

I'm gonna have to go "status of the roster" here.  I mean we got one legit good/great player and again this was the easiest pick to make, find a good guard at 5. The rest have been inconsistent starters or marginal back ups with the exception of Jarret and we have too little to work with there..  OK so "stinks" may be too strong but so was "awesome"  When  you combine both drafts they came out with very little in the way of impact players that will turn a losing franchise around.  And that is what some claimed he did when we won a division with most all of the key players either picked by Shanny  or falling in his lap as late surprise cuts (D Jax, Norman).  

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 The 2015 draft provided a guard that was taken with one of the highest picks ever used on a guard in NFL history.    He not only had to be good he needed to be great and close to HOF material to  justify using a pick that high on a guard.      I know he has made 2 Pro Bowls but is anyone confusing him with Russ Grimm? At any point in time have we seen the team hitch their wagon to Brandon Sherff and watch him clear the path to victory as the Hogs used to do?  Do they run behind him on 4th and 1 and expect a first down most times?  No as of now he is a very good player and a safe, solid pick. Nothing more.  Next we have Preston Smith who is only good half the time and still has a lot to prove, as does Crowder.  I agree in Jarrett, that was a terrible break, but it was too early to predict how he would pan out.   

 

Sorry none of this screams "killer" or "amazing".

 

I didn't say 3 killer players.  I said 3 starters.  Its hard to have a conversation like this after a draft because in theory all these guys are going to make it.  The post draft afterglow, etc.  Lets go for the 2011 draft as an example, Helu, Royster initially looked decent enough in year 1. Jenkins was the stud of camp who got hurt but the narrative was wait until 2012.  Hankerson looked like he could emerge, I was at the game where he was amazing versus Miami.  But ultimately the dust settles and you see who is a true starter versus who flashed a little and ultimately faded away.  

 

Call me crazy but a D lineman who you can count on for 8 sacks (and many say is emerging into greater than that) and is good against the run -- that some beat guys say the team is fearful he will fetch over 10 million on the open market -- that's actually a pretty good pick for a 2nd rounder.   If you can sign me up now that every draft our 2nd rounder will be Preston Smith caliber -- I'll sign on the dotted line now.   A 4th rounder slot receiver who has put up good numbers = good pick.  Spaight as a 5th rounder = good value.  Jarrett at safety for a 6th rounder = good.    

 

As for Scherff, yeah O line is the safest position to draft in the first round but its not as if every guy taken is just some stud pro bowler as if its no big deal unless they are a Hall of Famer.  And heck if Scherff is a pro bowler for the next 10 years, the dude will be a Hall of Famer.  Take a look at the other O lineman taken top 10 in that same draft -- the dude is punchline level bad.  What did the Rams do with the 2nd pick in the draft a few years ago with Greg Robinson?  Bad player.  Plenty of other examples of O lineman who were busts or just OK.  IMO a pro bowl player at ANY position is a job well done.  Leonard Williams got a whopping 2 sacks last year.  We will see what he can do without stud D lineman this year all around him.  I like him as a player but its not like we lost out on Suh.

 

Whether its Scott Campbell, Scot, or Kyle Smith I am not grading them on a weird curve.   IMO we want to judge them by their ability to pick good players.  If a guy has a freak injury, its not on them.  If their 3rd round pick is a bust but their 4th round pick works out for example -- that's the reality of the NFL draft -- as Doug Williams said its a crap shoot.  If some drafts work out better than others -- hey that happens, too. John Schneider has had good drafts, mediocre ones, bad ones.  But if you trust your plan and the guy executing it -- you don't throw the baby out with the bath water out of temporary frustration..

 

These things are a given for ANY GM -- hotshot guy or not:

A. Someone in some round is going to make a much better pick than you. 

B. Some of your picks will be busts.  And you can't anticipate which round and what player.  It's the reason why even the mock draft geek types say its all about accumulating picks to increase the odds.  To that point -- its often ignored that the 2016 draft brought 3 picks to the 2017 draft.  And yeah that matters, its good. 

C. Some pure good luck or bad luck will go down in a draft.  And if you are grading the person making the picks you factor that.  If for example, some dude has a career ending injury from this crop, its not Kyle Smith's fault and if the dude plays well before that went down, its still a good pick. 

 

 

[dswerdlw]

I agree with those who say Welsh would have been welcomed as the left guard/center replacement had he been picked in the 5th or even 6th round. (It's good to remember that Roullier was a 6th rounder).  Waltersfootball had Welsh pegged as a 5th rounder, as did some other sites.  No doubt, Settle was the better pick at that moment, so we're fortunate to land Welsh as a UDFA.  Also, Parris might have more upside as a guard than Welsh.  I'm eager to see what happens once they are in the presence of Callahan.  I'm optimistic to say the least.

[Darrell Green Fan]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I didn't say 3 killer players.  I said 3 starters.  Its hard to have a conversation like this after a draft because in theory all these guys are going to make it.  The post draft afterglow, etc.  Lets go for the 2011 draft as an example, Helu, Royster initially looked decent enough in year 1. Jenkins was the stud of camp who got hurt but the narrative was wait until 2012.  Hankerson looked like he could emerge, I was at the game where he was amazing versus Miami.  But ultimately the dust settles and you see who is a true starter versus who flashed a little and ultimately faded away.  

 

 

 

 

See my response above.  I just don't see that '15 draft as "Killer", that is how you described that draft and what I was referring to.  But you point about falling in love with the players picked at the time of the draft is on the money.   I was thinking about that yesterday as I saw a draft and loved every pick, while knowing full well we don't know anything today. Let's not forget Nichols was the pick most of us trashed and he turned out to be a good pick.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We've had solid drafts but we just haven't drafted any real dynamic, game changing players. I think the last one we drafted was Reed and that was back in 2013. Doc might be that guy, but he's still super inconsistent. Hopefully Allen, Payne, and Guice can be those guys.

 

I agree with this part, we've struggled in the draft to get that killer elite stud.  I don't think though Leonard Williams who we passed over is that guy either.  Supposedly, Scot's backup plan to Scherff was Gurley -- and Gurley when healthy is a game changer.

 

Trent Williams is elite. Scherff might be emerging into that guy -- Cooley has harped on that some.  Will see.  According to some beat guys, they are still very high on Josh Doctson.

 

My problem with the Payne pick is IMO he's not a game changer albeit he fills a big need -- Derwin James who they passed on I think will be a dynamic game changer, Edmonds maybe too. 

 

My man crush on Guice is at an epic level.  I think that dude will be a game changer player.  Will see.

 

I get frustrated with their FA approach because they have opportunities to sign game changer players but they prefer not to shop in that aisle of the store because I gather they see it as risky.  I disagree with the approach, though.

[LD0506]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get frustrated with their FA approach because they have opportunities to sign game changer players but they prefer not to shop in that aisle of the store because I gather they see it as risky.  I disagree with the approach, though.

 

But wait, isn't that what they tried doing with Norman and got raked over the coals for it?

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

See my response above.  I just don't see that '15 draft as "Killer", that is how you described that draft and what I was referring to.  But you point about falling in love with the players picked at the time of the draft is on the money.   I was thinking about that yesterday as I saw a draft and loved every pick, while knowing full well we don't know anything today. Let's not forget Nichols was the pick most of us trashed and he turned out to be a good pick.

 

 

 

I agree with your 2nd point.  But I think you running with "killer" in the wrong way.  I didn't say a good draft is three pro bowlers.  3 pro bowlers isn't just a good draft its a legendary one -- GM going to the hall of fame kind of draft.    The irony though is Scherff has been a pro bowler, Crowder an alternate.  But I am not arguing that they got 3 pro bowlers. 1 for sure, though. 

 

Parcells, Kiper among many have defined what a great draft is just based on history.  And its typically this:

 

A. 3 good players

B. a player or two who are good depth guys.

 

So for the 2015 draft, I don't see how that point is even a debate.  And the 2016 draft is on the periphery of that if Doctson emerges.  But granted if Doctson ends up just a guy than its just an average draft. 

 

I don't think we grade personnel guys on curves.  Then we are just playing gotcha on the GM. I can make an argument against just about anyone that way.    It's not hard to slam anybody as a fool if we do that.  For example, I've seen people-fans-media now slam the 2014 draft because only 1 guy is left on the roster.  Yeah I can make a rationale that way.  But IMO its unfair.  There is context to it.  They made a decision for better or worse to accumulate draft picks and save cap room.  I don't know if its a good or bad approach.  Will see.  But regardless, I am judging the picks simply as to they get multiple talented picks or not?   

 

Just because some coaches did not love Breeland's outspoken style and he cut his foot this off season and might get peanuts in FA doesn't change that it was a good 4th round pick.    Neither would it if some other team got a better player in the same round. 

 

9 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

But wait, isn't that what they tried doing with Norman and got raked over the coals for it?

 

 

 

The one exception the rule?  Who raked them over the coals for it?  I recall the reaction from fans-media was somewhere between elation and giddiness when it went down.  Norman a bust?