2018 Draft Day Thread

[wilco_holland]

49 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

The broadcast guys were giving the Redskins props, I really don't understand the other grades either.  Payne was not a reach, had D James been off the board as expected I don't see how many would have had a problem with the pick. As mentioned he has a very low bust potential and fills a huge need.  Then as you said we got a 1st round RB, another huge need, while still trading back.  I'm trying to figure out why Settle was graded as a 5th round pick, he looks better than that from what I've seen.

 

I think Settle had same issue as Morgan Moses when he came out. Both tested below average in combine and where part of pretty strong positional draft class. Productive college players but lack the high upside physical numbers. I think just like Moses Settle might struggle a first. But coaches will put in the work and he will develop quickly in a productive player because both players had pretty good technique. 

 

And don't forget Settle is a one-year wonder (kinda). Struggled with weight in the past, got that under controle and took off. Some teams might just question if he can keep that under controle. 

[Long n Left]

13 hours ago, Burgold said:

 

The one thing I would say is that while I liked the trade back to net the extra third our choice with that third might have been one of our more questionable picks. So, great trade and uncertain execution. So maybe that's what the national draft graders are thinking?

Don't mean to single you out as I've seen many here question the Christian pick, but I tend to look at it through this lens:

 

The Skins got the guy most everyone wanted/assumed would be the pick with their original second round pick, so getting Christian was like an extra pick for giving up nothing. If he ever sees the field as a Redskin, it's a home run. If he becomes a starter, it's a walk off grand slam, flip the bat and strut. 

[JaxJoe]

To me, a better arguement at 13 should be Edmunds vs. Payne, not James vs. Payne. Respectable websites like NFL.com had Payne graded higher. I think Edmunds would've had a stronger impact on our D than James. But there’s another angle that has to be considered and it goes along with Swearinger’s tweets during the hunt for Hankins. Swag knows we needed an interior DL. I bet it gets a little tiring to have to tackle a 225lb back who is flying untouched out of the backfield. Also, when you loose confidence in your front 7, you probably have to cheat up more than you like, and that negatively affects your pass defense. Payne was the right pick. I understand the criticisms due to the lack of stats for a #13 pick. But one has to also consider that Payne was the defensive MVP for both BCS games. That has to count for something. Payne is a bit of an enigma yet I’m comfortable Tomosula will maximize his potential. 

[Long n Left]

9 hours ago, JaxJoe said:

I see now why we didn't draft a guard this year.  We are waiting for RP3 - Richie Petitbon, OG for Alabama who will be a senior (RS) next year.  He is related to someone we know... can't quite think of the name at the moment.

 

https://rolltide.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=4665

 

 

 

I knew his dad when I lived in VA, big ole boy, and a bit of a nut case, in a fun way. Definitely a guy you'd want beside you if some **** went down. Not surprised his kid is a mauler.

[Burgold]

17 minutes ago, Long n Left said:

Don't mean to single you out as I've seen many here question the Christian pick, but I tend to look at it through this lens:

 

The Skins got the guy most everyone wanted/assumed would be the pick with their original second round pick, so getting Christian was like an extra pick for giving up nothing. If he ever sees the field as a Redskin, it's a home run. If he becomes a starter, it's a walk off grand slam, flip the bat and strut. 

I pretty much agree. I'm really happy with the draft. I was just rationalizing why the national draft grades handed out were below my (and other ESers) expectations. I will say that particular pick surprised me, mostly cause the universal criticism is that the guy lacks strength and is easily overpowered, but Payne, Settle, Guice, and then addressing inside linebacker, special teams speed, and getting a Patriots' style slot guy makes me pretty darn happy.

 

One or maybe two head scratchers in a draft offset by three Yahoos! I'll take that any day.

[bedlamVR]

I think one of the things you have to get away from is the value given to players from mock drafts - they are often done in a bubble based on people without the scouting networks or direct access to players and coaches based in many cases on second and third-hand information and rumors.- come up with. Sometimes it is accurate and other times it isn't but what it is, is a good way to pass the time between the start of February and the beginning of September (MAN THE NFL NEEDS A SUMMER DEVELOPMENT LEAGUE) . 

 

As for Payne - I think we can get swept up in the hype or we can nitpick the hell out of a player - One thing is for sure is at 20 it is most likely that his best football is still ahead of him - and the player you saw in college is only a glimpse of what they will become (good and bad). I get SIP's (aka Payne hater j/k :) criticism and that is fine - it is fair and balanced, but the risk is when the kid comes in and struggles (which most rookies do at the beginning of their careers) that the flaws seen in college are not used as an "I told you so stick"  - because to me the most important year for any draft prospect is not his rookie year but year two where you can see if he has learnt anything.

 

But talking of draft value - value IS a subjective term - Payne on any team might not be a value pick until the late teens early 20s or beyond, but for us - in desperate need of someone like him the value is much much greater. 

 

Another thing that should be considered is this - The draft no longer is a mechanism to get promising young talent into the team - it is a mechanism by which to manage the cap - (which is why i think the Eagles are going to run into HUGE problems in the coming years - they are already struggling with the CAP and Wentz is still on his rookie deal !) . So while people say we should have addressed the holes in the roster in FA and we should have gone after Hankins harder - from a financial point of view - while Hankins is proven if you can get a rookie with much higher upside with a similar impact (lets face it someone with a pulse might have been a boon for our defensive line)  for roughly half of what he might have been asking for (or much much less in the case potentially of Tim Settle for example) then why would you make that kind of commitment - ( i also have to add it kind of annoys me  when players get realeased from teams AFTER the frenzy of the opening days of free agency)    

 

A final thought on Paynes value, and especially Payne Vs James - is this - My one concern about James is that he is strictly a strong safety - he has been compared to Cam Chancellor and Sean Taylor (although Sean played free) but he is a big hitting physically imposing safety,. I hope he has a great career ahead of him and he is a good prospect but my concern is - with the greater emphasis on player safety and the ridiculous new helmet rules being proposed - the days of the Cam Chancellor enforcer are surely numbered ... 

 

Finally as for grades - I think they are always interesting - but I am always happier when pundits underrate us - so getting a C grade on this draft is no biggie for me - Just as sure will be the barrage of the last place and 4-12 predictions that will come along later in the offseason - it just goes to show people are really not paying attention.... 

 

[757SeanTaylor21]

I just don't understand why people don't think he is gonna be asked to do what he did in the bcs games where he was unstoppable? Like his sole job is to stay and anchor. I mean he will but he is gonna blow up a lot of plays as well. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Payne runs a faster 10 yard sprint than Joey Bosa.  Think about that.    All along I wanted Vea, still disappointed he was taken right before us. But as the draft approached I was fine with Payne, may have actually preferred him, because he can move so well.  

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

My excitement for Payne over James and Edmunds and even Vea was based on potential... but the best I've heard about Edmunds and James is things like playmaker.

 

If that's the best you heard about Edmunds and James, you weren't paying much attention to either player.  Both guys are arguably if anything the biggest athletic freaks in the draft. Potential is the middle name for both guys.  The question is do they fulfill it?

 

 Edmonds is a 19 year old tank who runs like a gazelle.   He's touted by many as wow wait until this dude figures it all out.  Derwin is compared to Sean Taylor by some (personally I think that's over the top) because of out of this world strength -- combined with speed.  If anything the argument for Payne over those two would be higher floor, more conservative pick because he's more polished right now.  As for Vea, you can debate that one either way. Vea is more known than Payne for being an athletic freak for his size, playing RB in the past, chasing down players on kick offs.  Benching 41 reps to Payne's 27.  But Vea has that belly -- Payne doesn't have one.  Payne you can argue is the leaner-meaner one potentially but I've heard that one argued either way.

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

Just a side observation, through much of the draft process I kept reading how both Vea and Payne would be stretches at 13. How either would be okay if we traded down into the twenties to snag one, but at 13 it'd be kind of dumb. Now, I admire people sticking to their horses, but... one went at twelve and the other at 13. I think the NFL disagrees with fandom.

 

Closer to the draft, Vea was a riser.  Payne went mostly in the other direction in some big mocks down to the 2nd round.  Vea started becoming a hot pick in mocks to the Raiders at #10.  Dolphins #11.  Even the beat guys started saying heck Vea might not be available at 13.

 

10 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

@Skinsinparadise 

 

Every player has some unforgiving tape. Reps they’d like back. Tomsula is key here for me, I’m good if he’s good.

I actually mentioned Kerrigan in another Payne take. I see him similarly as “safe” with nothing overtly special but really good players.  I do, however, believe Payne has more upside athletically and if he matches Kerrigans work habits which his time at Alabama suggests he will, could be great. ??

 

With the 13th pick I know we are all looking for a hall of famer, show stopper, franchise changer but sometimes what you need is a guy who can just stop the damn run! Lol. Maybe he can be more too, we’ll find out soon enough.

 

With Payne, its more than just occasional lapses.  There is a reason why its almost a mantra about Payne from the draft geeks (including even some who dig him a lot) as to which version do we get the in season version or the Championship games version.  I am not saying he was bad during the season but in some of the games I watched and then re-watched, he at times comes off high off the snap, the guard gets under him and opened a hole by shoving him laterally often to the left and creating a crease for the RB.  Fortunately in Alabama he had MLBs who could close the gap behind him.  But in plenty of games he had enough plays where you think this dude is no Damon Harrison.  But hopefully, I am wrong or as I said and you did Tomsula can coach him up.

 

As for the walls of text people putting up from draft geeks praising Payne.  I could do the same for any prospect projected in the first two rounds.  Part of the fun with the draft is selling hope.  I like reading good things about players we can take.

 

Among the draft geeks, I respect Dane Brugler probably the most.  Next to him, Jeremiah.  In Jeremiah's last mock, Payne dropped to the 2nd round.  In Brugler's 7 round mock, Payne was in the 2nd round.  They both like the player but perceived he could go later.  That was my thing before the draft, I am ok with Payne but trade down and get a pick.   Having said that, I guess you never know.  So that part is a guessing game.  A big part of it for me was even if you miss out on Payne, there were others noses I like especially Hill who could have been taken later.

 

Brugler ranked Derwin James as the 8th best player in the draft, Edmonds as the 15th best.  Payne as #33.  That sounds about right to me.

 

But again I like Payne.  He won't be a bust.  He will be a significant upgrade to the defense.  And if FA isn't much in play for this team anymore.  And we have to use the draft now to draft based on need -- its brilliant from that perspective.   If my thing is let the Vikings sign the Sheldon Richardson types.  Let the Jets or whomever go get Hankins -- FA isn't a big tool to fill holes, we will start using the draft for that, Payne is a great pick from that perspective.   

 

But I'll stop after this, I don't want to be perceived as someone who doesn't like the player.  Like him.   But I think the defense would have been better drafting James or Edmonds and signing a D line FA like Hankins.

[Thinking Skins]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If that's the best you heard about Edmunds and James, you weren't paying much attention to either player.  Both guys are arguably if anything the biggest athletic freaks in the draft.  Edmonds is a 19 year old tank who runs like a gazelle.   He's touted by many as wow wait until this dude figures it all out.  Derwin is compared to Sean Taylor by some (personally I think that's over the top) because of out of this world strength -- combined with speed.

 

See, I can't really debate the details of the players because I haven't been studying them back and forth. But I heard the word "raw" a lot with Edmunds. He was a guy I liked early in the offseason, especially after the combine, having bad instincts and just being an athletic freak and / or a potential playmaker. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and if (as you argued for) we had gone for Hankins in the offseason and had a DL more sured up, maybe I'd be more in favor of that. But I don't really see the sure thing others are talking about.

 

Cooley was talking about it with Doc Walker on the draft show and then Portis on Saturday. I've seen James has been projected more as a SS than a FS and SS is a lot easier to find than FS. That's like the Leron Landry situation all over again. I'm not saying he'll flame out as flat but just because people compared him to Taylor and some of the beasts of the position doesn't make it so. And then it gets back to my original point (and that of Doc Walker and Fred Smoot), the big guys make other guys better. Sure a good S will help his corners and his LBs in coverage and occasionally step up in the run game. But You don't want your S stopping the run because by that point he's already got 5-8 yards. But a good DL, especially one that can get pressure without blitzing can be so helpful all over. They keep the LBs clean, they push the pocket back, they make the QB get rid of the ball faster, which means he's more likely to throw a pick or make a mistake.

 

The question is is Payne that guy? I think Allen is more likely to be that guy, but at the same time you don't see too many 310 pound guys who put up 4.95 40s. That's faster than Allen and faster than any other 300+ DT in this years draft. There's a reason guys like Davenport get drafted early. Its not just because of his production in college, but with the combination of his frame and his speed teams start to imagine what this guy can do. I'm not saying I'd draft Davenport at 14, but its easy to imagine a team putting him above James because EDGE is a more important position than SS.

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Cooley was talking about it with Doc Walker on the draft show and then Portis on Saturday. I've seen James has been projected more as a SS than a FS and SS is a lot easier to find than FS. That's like the Leron Landry situation all over again. I'm not saying he'll flame out as flat but just because people compared him to Taylor and some of the beasts of the position doesn't make it so. And then it gets back to my original point (and that of Doc Walker and Fred Smoot), the big guys make other guys better. Sure a good S will help his corners and his LBs in coverage and occasionally step up in the run game. But You don't want your S stopping the run because by that point he's already got 5-8 yards. But a good DL, especially one that can get pressure without blitzing can be so helpful all over. They keep the LBs clean, they push the pocket back, they make the QB get rid of the ball faster, which means he's more likely to throw a pick or make a mistake.

 

The question is is Payne that guy? I think Allen is more likely to be that guy, but at the same time you don't see too many 310 pound guys who put up 4.95 40s. That's faster than Allen and faster than any other 300+ DT in this years draft. There's a reason guys like Davenport get drafted early. Its not just because of his production in college, but with the combination of his frame and his speed teams start to imagine what this guy can do. I'm not saying I'd draft Davenport at 14, but its easy to imagine a team putting him above James because EDGE is a more important position than SS.

 

I don't want to get too much into the weeds about James.  But in short, he's a mega leader. Can play dime LB, nickel at times, he's even good at rushing the passer -- swiss army knife.  Edmonds I am not as high on as James but its close - can play MLB, edge rusher, he is a bit raw that's true but mega talented.

 

I'd sum it up this way. I've heard enough from people that cover the team -- that I have a strong impression that James was likely the higher guy on their board, too.  And I think you go for the All Pro versus the good player at need position.

 

A. I do agree DL > safety

B.  I do agree if they are going to ignore D line in FA -- that amps up the need for D line in the draft.

C.  Edmonds though can help with pass rush -- to me pass rush = D line.  At least equally important and if anything I'd give the nod to pass rush.

 

But I don't look at the draft as a need based position comparison unless the payers are apples to apples.  To go back to what one person posted here, actually Cooley said the same (and I agree with the point) we got enough B level players, we need some elite guys.  Personally, I think James and to a lesser extend Edmunds are more likely to be elite than Payne.  That's all.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Doug Williams on the radio just now, said there was disagreement in the draft room about who to pick in the first round. Some wanted to go in another direction.

 

Jay sounded a bit wishy washy talking about whether Payne was tops on their board.  Some comments allude yes, some no.  He said they all agreed at the end.  Unless I am misunderstanding Doug (I'll listen to the interview again) he contradicts that. 

[skinny21]

Aside from the need angle, what excites me most about Payne is how he was used.  In the playoffs, Saban unleashed him - changed his responsibilities - and he produced in a massive way.  I think that’s more how we’re likely to use him... a 1 gap wrecker, and I think he’s gonna excel at it with some coaching/experience.  

 

My one concern is how the 1 gapping (particularly from your 0/1 tech) affects our backers.  Tougher to keep them clean that way, IMO.    

 

@SkinsinparadiseUnless I learn otherwise, I would take that as there was disagreement, but one side conceded in the end.  So in the end, they all “agreed”.  

[Burgold]

4 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Aside from the need angle, what excites me most about Payne is how he was used.  In the playoffs, Saban unleashed him - changed his responsibilities - and he produced in a massive way.  I think that’s more how we’re likely to use him... a 1 gap wrecker, and I think he’s gonna excel at it with some coaching/experience.  

 

My one concern is how the 1 gapping (particularly from your 0/1 tech) affects our backers.  Tougher to keep them clean that way, IMO.    

That's an interesting idea. What if some of what people are complaining (endlessly and tediously complaining) about when it comes to Payne was just him doing his responsibilities and fulfilling exactly the role that Saban wanted? It's hard for me to imagine that this guy would be a three year starter on Alabama if he were subpar considering the level of talent and prospect that team gets. Not to mention the ridiculous depth.

 

Saban doesn't seem like one to settle. If he kept Payne starting for three years, he liked what Payne was giving him.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

@SkinsinparadiseUnless I learn otherwise, I would take that as there was disagreement, but one side conceded in the end.  So in the end, they all “agreed”.  

 

Yeah exactly.  One side has to concede of course.  But if I understood him multiple guys in that room wanted to go in another direction.  Doug was on the Payne side.  They also had 4-5 teams who were willing to trade with them at 13.

 

There was also serious debate at 44 about taking Guice right there versus trading down.

 

They had Settle graded as a 2nd rounder. They think Settle can play nose or 3 but not 5. 

[skinny21]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah exactly.  One side has to concede of course.  But if I understood him multiple guys in that room wanted to go in another direction.  Doug was on the Payne side.  They also had 4-5 teams who were willing to trade with them at 13.

 

There was also serious debate at 44 about taking Guice right there versus trading down.

 

They had Settle graded as a 2nd rounder. They think Settle can play nose or 3 but not 5. 

I must be missing something then, ‘cause I’m not seeing the contradiction.

 

Kinda thinking we should have leveraged those teams looking to trade up.  Oh well.  We improved our team in a big way, so I’m not complaining.  One angle there though was the idea I had that gaining a 1st next year gives us ammo to move up for a qb.  Don’t see us ending up worse than around .500 unless the wheels really fall off.  

[Anselmheifer]

Isn't there normally a draft thread about missed opportunities/who we should have drafted, but didn't?

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[wilco_holland]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah exactly.  One side has to concede of course.  But if I understood him multiple guys in that room wanted to go in another direction.  Doug was on the Payne side.  They also had 4-5 teams who were willing to trade with them at 13.

 

There was also serious debate at 44 about taking Guice right there versus trading down.

 

They had Settle graded as a 2nd rounder. They think Settle can play nose or 3 but not 5. 

 

You could make the point that, with current knowledge, going Edmunds in the first would have been better. Settle (who they are high on) would then take the NT spot. Now we took Settle as value pick. 

 

If Settle was graded as a second round pick you could even say that taking Edmunds with first, you could have used the third round pick on Settle. 

 

I'm not saying that we made a mistake but it's just fun looking back. 

 

I think at the end we did well. Payne will have a bigger impact on our team then James or Edmunds because I think both players need a certain 'package', they are not plug and play in our current systeme. The guys who said ''no we trade down now instead of taking Guice'' had it right (this time). Taking Settle in 5th is no brainer. It was value. 

 

Just one thing.... We graded Payne and Guice in the first round, Settle and Christian in the second round...Apke probally was rated second or third round. So if you ask our FO we drafted 2 first round players and three 2 round players. They must feel pretty damm gooooood. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I must be missing something then, ‘cause I’m not seeing the contradiction.

 

 

Don't care much about the contradiction, its a side point at best for me.  Jay said the room was unanimous on Payne.  If I understood Doug (and I'll re-listen to it), that isn't true about the room being unanimous.  Unless, Jay was playing with semantics that at the end everyone was on board -- well, yeah I'd presume you'd have to be.  Doug's interview to me wasn't the first rodeo to make me wonder if he was tops on their board. 

 

Doug is fun because I sense he spills more than they'd like him too.  If you recall in his pressers weeks ago he basically said heck yeah we are drafting D line and RB early.  Then this last week he toned it down some, I'd presume because they asked him to. 

 

I don't really have a point though where I am trying to convince anybody of anything.  I am just making an observation that maybe some find interesting, some don't.  

 

[Peregrine]

On 4/28/2018 at 11:27 PM, RandyHolt said:

 

Between Alex and Guise,  maybe we need a LG less than ever before.  That, or one of our tackles moves inside. Maybe the days of short guards are slowly going away. Our new NT is under 310 yet traditionally are 330. Plus. Trent did fine inside. We can only say, oh well its Trent for so long, before admitting other tall guards may also do just fine.  Possibly, many / most 330+ pound NTs are only on the field for 25% of the plays anyways. If that, factoring injuries and fatigue.

I think at this point its most likely we are moving someone inside, Ty seems the obvious choice.  I just dont think that a RB changes the need for LG, because the problem we had last year was we pretty much lead the league in how far behind the line our RBs were getting hit.  All we are going to do is make Guice's talent useless.  Theres a lot a RB can do once he is presented with a hole, or the ability to make a cut.  Theres almost nothing even the best can do when they dont even get a chance to read the line and make that first cut.  

 

I do think Trent may move inside at some point, though I think it might be in the next couple of seasons while we have Nsekhe move inside this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

To me, this would be up there with them drafting Guice.

 

 

ProFootballTalk‏Verified account @ProFootballTalk 9m9 minutes ago

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If changes are coming to Raiders front office, they haven't happened yet (but some think Bruce Allen is looming)

 

[spjunkies]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To me, this would be up there with them drafting Guice.

 

 

ProFootballTalk‏Verified account @ProFootballTalk 9m9 minutes ago

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If changes are coming to Raiders front office, they haven't happened yet (but some think Bruce Allen is looming)

 

 

Man, this would ruin the best thing that could possibly happen. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Burgundy Blog‏Verified account @BurgundyBlog 4m4 minutes ago

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Burgundy Blog Retweeted ProFootballTalk

"There's a belief in league circles that Bruce Allen hopes to eventually return to the Raiders… The thinking is that he would serve in an executive-type role, with no direct input over personnel but a significant role in managing the business—including the team's new stadium."

[Thinking Skins]

Doug Williams: "The big boys make the little boys look better. The little boys don't make big boys look better."

— John Keim (@john_keim) April 30, 2018