Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[Veryoldschool]

I'd like to sell Snyder.  When I mean I'm willing to give him away and in truth I'd be willing to pay you to take him and by that I mean please take him, please!

 

Ditto for Bruce, he's not worth an entire sentence, he just needs to go.

 

I am emphatic that I want Gruden back.  I think 2018 holds promise if Gruden and Cousins return.  I am buying Jay and Kirk.

[goskins10]

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I did not know this.  Still, it seems unlikely that they would tag Kirk a 4th time.  

 

Agreed. I honestly was always under the impression there was a 3 time tag rule. But there is not. But it is very. very prohibitive. It would be even more insanity than we already have - but it is bruce........

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Ok, I think we're sortof talking about different aspects of this here.  I think the HC (whoever that is for whatever organization) has to have input on FAs and the Draft, and on who makes the final 53.  But in a lot of organizations, the final decision making authority sits with the GM.  The reason being that a coach is always going to go with guys he trusts because his job is to win now, but the GM can "force" (gently, hopefully) the coach to develop some more talented players.  It's the setup most places.

 

All I'm saying is that I think that Jay needs a counter-balance, and Bruce doesn't provide that.  Even when SM was here, I don't think that there was a counter-balance.  

 

Yes we are talking about two different things. I could not agree more that there should be a GM - a real GM not mr. wannabe GM - who makes the final here are the 63 players (including PS) you have. I do not like any odf the situations where the HC is also the GM. But that is not what is happening here which is why I thought you were talking about where Jay plays the guys he has. It's been well chronicled that Jay does not have final say - in fact it appears to me he has very little input.

 

But I think Jay and his position coaches need to have final say on where those players play.

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

And I agree with your analysis above.  I guess I just never thought they should have messed with Crowder, so I would have put JD on one side, TP on the other, and then filled in behind that.  Now JD's injury would have forced Grant into action anyway.  But for some reason I like that a little better than putting both JD and TP on the same side.  
 

My Compton thing was more last year, when he was the day 1 starter.  That made little sense then.  Though maybe we can pass that off on Barry, I dunno.  

 

If he had stayed with that when both players were healthy well into the season I would agree. But he went to Doctson and Pryor outside and Crowder in the slot as soon as possible considering the learning curve. The problem is Pryor never panned out. That is really disappointing actually. I thought it was one of the actually good moves the team made and it flopped spectacularly. I can agree with blaming Barry - he is gone..  :-)

 

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I think it's more about the plan getting the team prepared, like how they practice, how much they play in pre-season, how they split up reps, that kind of thing that needs to be tweaked, because it's been 4 years and he hasn't won an opener yet.  

 

Fair enough.

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I don't disagree, but that's kidna the edge that separates the 8-8/9-7 coaches from the great coaches.  I'm not saying Jay couldn't develop it, but he hasn't yet.

 

Cooley was saying that last year, McVay went nuts after the Dallas game where they ran on just about every first down, and said he'd never do that again.  And Cooley said that he thinks that it has changed his overall approach to game-calling.  I think there was some drive in the last Rams game where they killed off a bunch of clock at the end of the game, but they passed the ball 6 or 7 times.  

 

That's what I mean by being aggressive, and knowing your team.  Everybody knew that when we tied the game up against KC and gave them over a minute, they were going to drive that thing down and win the game.  Because the defense hadn't stopped them at all in the second half.  Knowing the game, the situation, and taking risks is part of the HC's job.  Figuring out when to take the risk is why they get paid the big money.

 

I get what you are saying - sort of But I think he takes risks when he can. As fans we are always looking for the splash paly when steady is the better path. As for McVay, I also remember people (not saying you as I do not know that to be fact) were very critical of McVay getting away from the run too quickly. There has to be balance. Also, every time you pass on first down and it's incomplete you put the offense in a hole. When the Oline was healthy and we had Garcon and Reed available, that was OK. Along with Kirk, those guys could get them out. But this group is not as sure. I have to believe some of the paly calling is driven by injuries.  

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I've never said Jay is like Zorn or Spurrier.  He's much better.  But in order to take the next step, he's got to get better in this area, in my opinion.  

 

I think both can be a problem.  And I also agree that the fact they haven't had a good running game in 4 years is a bit on him.  I'm going to admit that I don't really know a whole heck  lot about the intricate details of X's and O's, but I will just use what Cooley has been saying for over 2 years: We consistently block run-plays incorrectly.  Somebody goes and does something wrong, more than just getting blown up.  Though the latter does happen, Cooley goes a bit crazy in his film breakdowns.

 

You can chalk some of that up to injuries, but he has a point. But to me is that on Jay or Callahan? I mean isn't that why you have a position coach? All coaches have their weaknesses. Callahan seems to be good at getting guys ready from a macro standpoint. But for whatever reason, his Oline players make really bonehead mistakes, and at bad times. But can you remove him? And if you did, with who?

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I think that there are several scheme/personnel related issues

 

1. Our OL is best suited for an outside zone type of scheme.  In order to run this type of scheme, you typically need good blocking TEs and WRs who can hold up on the outside.  We have neither. 

 

2. When we try to run inside, that's sub-optimizing what the OL does well.  

 

3 The run scheme is installed by Callahan, while the passing game is installed by Cavanaugh/Gruden.  So the two don't exactly compliment each other.  They do somewhat, but not entirely.

 

In essence, I think we need to pick what we want to do from a scheme perspective (I would suggest go with the outside zone type scheme only because the OL is already built for it) and then find complimentary players at TE, RB and WR.  And then coach it up.  It seems as though we try to do a lot of different things, and do none of them well. 

 

This comes back to my point that Gruden should appoint an honest to God OC, and make that person accountable for all of this stuff.  He needs to stay involved because he's a bit of an offensive genius, but he can't be responsible for installing and coordinating all of it because there just isn't enough time to do that and everything else he needs to do.  Very few coaches have been successful in the long-term at being the OC/HC/Play Caller.  Reid and McCarthy both have done it well, but they eventually delegated play calling responsibilities as well.  Being the HC is a big and hard enough job that it's necessary to delegate to your coordinators.  

 

I agree at this point a true OC would help a lot of things. This organization seems to want ot take short cuts - no real GM, different scout team structure, no OC. There is a reason the successful organizations have identified those positions.

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I agree, there is a pile on effect. I defended him on the 3rd and 1 pass plays in whatever game that was (Eagles? Can't remember) where the world was calling for his head because he threw the ball twice on 3rd and 1 to Crowder and Reed, in some order.  This isn't "clock management" but game management. Both were fine plays, and both Reed and Crowder were legitimate targets, and both did silly things.   

 

I agree that you need to have guys on the team that are contributors.  But it's folly to try and force them into starter roles.  A glaring example of this was Reed Doughty.  Loved the guy.  Great guy to have on the team. Every year they lined him up as a starter, the secondary was at a disadvantage.  Great for spot duty, not a starter.  You know that you have good talent on the team when guys like Doughty, Grant, Kelley and Compton are backups and not starters.  Compton is now a backup, which is perfect.  Need to get there with the others.

 

Are you just using Doughty as an example? I am pretty sure Jay showed him the door? Compton played really well to end the 2015 season. So he was put in the starter role for 2016. He played like garbage and was demoted, even though they love the guy. I just do not have a problem with that. With someone like Kelley, it's Bruce's decision that they have not gotten a better RB - although until he got injured he was coming along. Unless you either draft a 1st rd stud or get lucky, you have to develop RBs and that takes a few seasons. Need to have a little more patience. This is where I think Jay excels actually. He has stayed with some guys and developed them, more than any other coach we have had outside Gibbs. He does not get enough credit for that. BTW: Joe was notorious for sticking with guys well past their usefulness. It was just not as publicized like it is today with the 24 hr news cycle. When you commit to developing guys, you will make some mistakes. But it's the cost of developing young players properly.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

And I'm willing to concede that it's not ALL on Gruden.  Bruce (who has no idea what he's doing), SM, Doug Williams, and the rest of the FO has a big hand in this also.  Gruden is part of the FO though, so he has some level of culpability. 

 

I dunno.  Jay was given Griffin and Cousins when he was hired.  He might like the idea of scouting and selecting his guy, and grooming him the way he did Dalton.  He might like Kirk, but he might honestly like somebody in the draft more.  

 

Tough to tell.  I wouldn't fault him either way.  

 

I could see both ways. And as I said to another poster - it is purely a guess on my part that he would leave with Kirk - and one that admittedly I have no data to support. It's simply a gut instinct. I could very easily be 100% wrong.

 

[Paul Cumberland]

Jay in top 10 from the rankings at https://www.headcoachranking.com/.  

 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I can't get to the site through the filters at work for whatever reason.  But imagine that, he's not as bad as a lot of folks make him out to be.  I simply can't think of a head coach outside of Belichik that doesn't have fans wanting to burn their house down from time to time. 

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Paul Cumberland said:

Jay in top 10 from the rankings at https://www.headcoachranking.com/.  

 

Edit

 

Thanks for the link!  Good read!   

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I can't get to the site through the filters at work for whatever reason.  But imagine that, he's not as bad as a lot of folks make him out to be.  I simply can't think of a head coach outside of Belichik that doesn't have fans wanting to burn their house down from time to time. 

 

Interestingly Jay Gruden's best notes are coming from Gameplan stuff. And worst from Clock Management.

 

Now regarding every categories they have Jay ranks like this:

Play Calling: Tied 5th behind McVay (1st), Payton, Belichick/Pederson.

Personnel (they rank this how coaches uses their players): 6th behind McVay/Belichick (1st), Pederson, Payton, Zimmer.

Game Plan: Tied 4th with McVay, behind Pederson (1st), Payton/Belichick.

In Game Adjustments: Tied 6th with Pederson. Behind Payton (1st), McVay, Belichick, Caldwell, Zimmer

Clock Management: Tied 14th with McVay and Shanahan. First is Belichick right above everyone else. Pederson seems to be good, but almost everyone else is average here!

[NewCliche21]

19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

 

Interestingly Jay Gruden's best notes are coming from Gameplan stuff. And worst from Clock Management.

 

Now regarding every categories they have Jay ranks like this:

Play Calling: Tied 5th behind McVay (1st), Payton, Belichick/Pederson.

Personnel (they rank this how coaches uses their players): 6th behind McVay/Belichick (1st), Pederson, Payton, Zimmer.

Game Plan: Tied 4th with McVay, behind Pederson (1st), Payton/Belichick.

In Game Adjustments: Tied 6th with Pederson. Behind Payton (1st), McVay, Belichick, Caldwell, Zimmer

Clock Management: Tied 14th with McVay and Shanahan. First is Belichick right above everyone else. Pederson seems to be good, but almost everyone else is average here!

 

Jesus.  He's only 30 friggin' years old and he's one of the best coaches in the league.  Kinda wish we would've just promoted McVay, and that's coming from a Gruden fan.

[NickyJ]

Jim Caldwell being in the top 4 of any coaching list is the last thing I'd ever expect.

[Voice_of_Reason]

So this thread has been somewhat inactive with the Gruden quitting thread.  Leaving aside the quitting aspect, anybody change their minds over the last couple weeks?

 

i haven’t, really.  I still think Gruden is average, but the talent he is working with is below average.   And except for last week, the team hasn’t quit.  

 

I wouldn’t mind a change if Bruce goes, but assuming he doesn’t, I think Jay probably is the best option.

 

Others? 

 

 

[bobandweave]

I would buy Gruden still. I want him to replace Mcvay and give up play calling duties as I think it’s too many hats for one guy to handle but I’ve been impressed with him most of the time. 

 

Profootball Focus two weeks ago said he was the 7th best coach in the game today which I’m not sure I agree with that high of a ranking but I don’t think he’s given enough credit and definitely wouldn’t make a change there

 

Snyder I would donate to a go fund me to get rid of. Allen is a joke and if not for the looming Stadium deal would have been gone long ago and still needs to go

[Burgold]

Honestly, I'm so conflicted. That probably means hold. It certainly doesn't mean accumulate or strong buy.

[Newera]

Rams 40 - 0.   Over Seattle in Seattle.  Did we get rid of wrong coach.   Starting to look like it.   

[fordranger76]

10 minutes ago, Newera said:

Rams 40 - 0.   Over Seattle in Seattle.  Did we get rid of wrong coach.   Starting to look like it.   

And our current coach beat both of them. So....

[RemoveSnyder]

I think it's imperative to improve offensive line play and general playcalling / scheme. Additionally, the operative plan needs to get better player talent for the line as well. More physically imposing types lineman than just movement / maneuverability types. 

 

 

I'd do whatever it takes to get Dan Enos in here as the Offensive Coordinator. Match him with either Butch Barry or Sam Pittman for o-line. 

 

Need someone who matches up perfectly with Cousins mentally and is on the same page task wise. Scheme-wise, Enos has that in spades. 

Also doesn't hurt to have the guy who was the first to believe in him, in a way discovered him, be the one coaching him now. 

 

Quote

From a pre-season article in August of 2010, (some 7 and-a-half years ago). 

 

If not for Enos, Cousins probably wouldn’t be at Michigan State. No one on Dantonio’s staff coming over from Cincinnati had seen Cousins in person. Enos, however, had watched him closely during MSU’s summer camp. Enos was the only holdover from John L. Smith’s fired coaching staff.

When Dantonio and the other coaches would start discussing this quarterback prospect or that quarterback prospect, Enos always brought the conversation back to Cousins.

“Most people, it probably does surprise,” Enos, a former MSU quarterback, said of Cousins’ emergence. “But if you saw him in camp and got to know him and knew how driven he is and how competitive he is …

“It has not surprised me. It won’t surprise me seeing that guy getting drafted (in the first couple rounds) of the NFL draft and playing at a high level. He’s got arm strength, toughness, speed, intellect, leadership, all those things you look for. He might be one of the best quarterbacks they’ve ever had at that school.”

 

That's the coach to help, once again, initiate 2nd stage booster rockets to reach the next strata for Cuz. 

 

[SkinsGuy]

29 minutes ago, Newera said:

Rams 40 - 0.   Over Seattle in Seattle.  Did we get rid of wrong coach.   Starting to look like it.   

 

And the Redskins beat both of those teams this season. So.... 

 

 

[skins island connection]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 4:40 PM, NewCliche21 said:

 

Jesus.  He's only 30 friggin' years old and he's one of the best coaches in the league.  Kinda wish we would've just promoted McVay, and that's coming from a Gruden fan.

 

 I'm patting myself on the back right now [ one of the few times I can do it ] because I stated at the beginning of the season that McVay would do a good job, and he will most likely be coach of the year for what he's done with that team. I'm not sure how Goff will pan out, but if he goes downhill, I'd expect MV to go after Cousins hard.

I'm just not sold on Gruden. With the half and ends of games where he drops the ball in coaching is one thing, but his creativeness has pretty much run its course IMO, and I think he's stagnant on innovation; now, he doesn't have the players to do what he wants, so that could be a factor, but the drop-off between starters and replacements is eye-opening.

[markmills67]

If Cousin's goes then we should get rid of Gruden and start afresh. 

 

HTTR 

[SkinsFTW]

5 hours ago, markmills67 said:

If Cousin's goes then we should get rid of Gruden and start afresh. 

 

HTTR 

I'm pretty sure that Gruden would agree.

[88Comrade2000]

Trade Jay to the Bengals. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Another vintage Jay game.  Extremely solid game plan given the injuries/instability and the team was well-prepared to execute and compete.

 

But...the reverse call and the play sequence trying to run out the clock were absolutely mind-numbing.  Even if you don't have a tremendous amount of confidence in your QB...and that feeling is certainly justified...he's making big bank and you out the ball in his hands to win the game.

 

Overall, pretty damn good tho.  Nice work, Jay.

[SWFLSkins]

20 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So this thread has been somewhat inactive with the Gruden quitting thread.  Leaving aside the quitting aspect, anybody change their minds over the last couple weeks?

 

i haven’t, really.  I still think Gruden is average, but the talent he is working with is below average.   And except for last week, the team hasn’t quit.  

 

I wouldn’t mind a change if Bruce goes, but assuming he doesn’t, I think Jay probably is the best option.

 

Others? 

 

 

 

It's been awhile but I am still in the HOLD mode, will add hold to the title. Even after the debacle at Dallas. I am still of the thought that He gets a pass for this year based on team play considering injuries. I still have the same redundantly addressed issue with game mgt. However I think if He gets fired now, Bruce actually would cement his own stay and grasp more than now. 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Gruden is a better coach than people give him credit for. Most coaches wouldn't be able to squeeze out 6 wins out of this injury depleted roster vs. the schedule we've had.

 

We've beaten the teams we're supposed to beat. Undefeated against teams under .500.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Trade Jay to the Bengals. 

I'd do this in a heartbeat.  I'm not sure they want him back, but IF Lewis leaves, then it would make sense, since Dalton was most successful under Jay.  Also, I thin their fan base is used to going 8-8 to 10-6 and losing playoff games, so it's an absolutely perfect fit.   

 

12 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

I'm pretty sure that Gruden would agree.

I'm not sure.  He might want the opportunity to pick his own QB and groom him.  He didn't pick Cousins.  Cousins was here when he got here, along with Griffin.  It's not like Gruden has even had effusive praise for Cousins.  He might think he's making the best of what he's got. I dunno.  

 

 

42 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Gruden is a better coach than people give him credit for. Most coaches wouldn't be able to squeeze out 6 wins out of this injury depleted roster vs. the schedule we've had.

 

We've beaten the teams we're supposed to beat. Undefeated against teams under .500.

The only game they've really quit in was the Charger game after they essentially were eliminated.  They didn't quit in Dallas, they were blown out because of stupid mistakes by Crowder that just compounded.  He also got them to win a game in Seattle against all odds, granted with the help of a really off day from the Seattle FG kicker.  

 

I don't think Gruden is great. But he's not awful like Zorn and/or Spurrier.  We've seen awful.  I don't want to see it again.  

 

 Offensively, I don't understand a lot of things we do, at least currently:

 

- We continue to try and run out of sets with WRs tight to the ball, thinking that one of these days Crowder is going to block somebody.  News flash: he can't.  Stop doing it.

 

- We have at multiple times this year put VD (and for the brief time he was healthy, Reed) 1:1 with a DE, only to have him lose quickly and Kirk get a face-full of DE.  That's only smart at 3am on a whiteboard.  But we've continued to do it.

 

- We don't target receivers with talent.  ie: Doctson.  He has talent.  He should be targeted 10-15 times a game minimum.  If he runs the wrong route, fine, coaching point. If he drops it, fine, make up for it next time.  

 

- Our run game has been bad since Gruden got here.  Cooley thinks and I agree that there is a scheme component to this, and also a coaching component.  We don't block plays correctly.  That's on coaching.  If you want to blame Callahan, great.  It's Jay's job to hold Callahan accountable to fix it.  And this is not just with the new OL. This has been a problem for 4 years.  I don't think Gruden has the ability to hold Callahan accountable for it, though.  It's just not in him.  

 

- Clock management really eludes Gruden on a fairly regular basis.  

 

 

As I keep saying, and it sounds contradictory to some, I don't think he should be fired. Mostly because I fear that Dan/Bruce will hire the next Zorn, but also because I understand that the guy had a rough deal this year. 

 

But I DO think that there should be some significant self-evaluation, and some significant adjustments to approach, coaching staff, roles and responsibilities.  If he doesn't change things up a bit, then we're just going to see the same stuff over and over. Personally, I'd start by hiring 1 OC who is 100% responsible and accountable for the game plan and calling plays.  That guy then can hold the position coaches accountable to coach the scheme.  I know Jay is an offensive guy, but if he's going to continue to try and be the OC/HC/Playcaller, I'm not sure that is going to work for him.  

[LaxBuddy21]

19 hours ago, fordranger76 said:

And our current coach beat both of them. So....

I wonder how Jay would do with that talent compared to ours. Outside of quarterback and a few OL positions, they crush us in almost every aspect talent wise. That game was a Gurley win. When was the last time we had a running game that could do that?

[JSSkinz]

10 minutes ago, LaxBuddy21 said:

I wonder how Jay would do with that talent compared to ours. Outside of quarterback and a few OL positions, they crush us in almost every aspect talent wise. That game was a Gurley win. When was the last time we had a running game that could do that?

 

They have ridiculous talent, all they needed was a decent offensive mind to run that team.