Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

How many coaches in the NFL really do the "Throw the clipboards" thing? Rex Ryan was maybe the last of that breed. And he didn't exactly reinvent football. Tom Coughlin was the last red-faced maniac to win a title, I think. I feel like the models now are the soulless automatons like Bellichick and the cool uncles like Tomlin.

Tomlin is the first one I could see throwing a clipboard... same with Belichick..  Have you seen them stare down a player when they miss an assignment?  They dont have that look of disbelief or confusion, they know who messed up, and the player generally doesnt even look at the coach after it happens because they're afraid they will burst into flames.  

 

I view the 'throwing clipboards' as more of a metaphor, but in practice or in meetings I want intensity.  (I'm speculating) I don't see that coming out of Gruden, and I wonder if that's what has contributed to these instances where players just seemingly forget how to play football... they aren't afraid of letting their coach down. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I ultimately think that Jay may be our Marvin Lewis. Hear me out.

 

Marvin is a great coordinator and a perfectly adequate head coach. And for whatever reason, he has the right temperament to survive and even almost sorta thrive in a highly dysfunctional environment.

 

I think Gruden is more than capable of going 85 and 75 and over the next ten years.

 

And for this particular organization, that may be as good as it gets. 

Marvin Lewis, Norv Turner, Jay Gruden, all same guy.  

[MartinC]

I'm stunned there are people out there who want to can Gruden. I get its after a bad loss to the Cowboys and that we have hovered just over .500 even in the best years under him so I am not saying he should be bullet proof but this season he and his staff have done a great coaching job just keep this team competitive.

 

Injuries matter.

 

We are ranked 12th in the NFL in scoring and 11th in yards. Thats miraculous when you consider -

 

1. We have done it without consistent production from any WR (Crowder perhaps excepted but even he has been up and down this year)

 

2. Jordan Reed has been injured all year and a shell of himself even when has played, which has not been often.

 

3. The O'line is a MASH unit. We have had I think 22 starting combinations along the line and are currently starting people who were on the street 3 weeks ago - those who are playing from the original line Williams, Schreff and Moses are all hurt and way less than 100%. Moses might be done for the year now anyway and its likely Trent gets shut down at some point.

 

4. One of the few bright spots is/was Chris Thompson. He's on IR. Him and an ageing TE in Davis are the only guys Cousins has really been able to consistently count on to make big plays for him.

 

Gruden has done more with less this season than any Redskins coach I can recall. In past years this level of offensive 'talent' would have resulted in a 3 or 4 win season and us being toward the bottom of the league in just about every statistical category. Gruden (along with Cousins) has done a wonderful job this season getting production from not a great deal.

 

On defense we have also been hammered by injuries as well. How many ILB's have started, 6? 7? We lost Allen our best DE and Ioannidis who was having a great year is playing injured. Zach Brown is having achilles issues and is less than 100%. Norman and Breeland missed time.We have started about 5 safeties next to Swearinger.  A defense that started the season looking good has gradually fallen away.

 

No team could survive the level of injuries we have had and been a real contender. That we have stayed even competitive is to the credit of all concerned. It might get ugly down the stretch with even more injuries and nothing for guys to really play for apart from pride. 

 

But Gruden absolutely should be back next year. He's a very good offensive coach who has grown into the HC role. He's not Joe Gibbs or Bill Belicheck - but I'd much rather have him as my head coach than say Jason Garrett.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't get the impression that Tomlin screams at anyone. I do think he creates an environment of accountability (same as Bellichick) where eventually the team is policing itself.

 

I think that's the goal of every coach, and some obviously do it far better than others.

 

I actually think Gruden does a fairly decent job of that. The locker room under Gruden has been remarkably stable and quiet by the standards of the Snyder Era. We've had done of the locker room instability stories we used to get all that time. That's with Cousins' contract situation and with a drunken GM feuding with everyone.

 

I don't watch the games and think that the team is wildly undisciplined or anything. I actually think they are pretty well coached - with extreme talent deficiencies in some key places.

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Marvin Lewis, Norv Turner, Jay Gruden, all same guy.  

 

I think Marvin and Jay are slightly above Norv. Norv's problem was that he simply could never right a situation once it started slipping away. He and Wade are the same in that regard.

 

Marvin will always steer his team right back to mediocrity.

[Dissident2]

5 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I'm stunned there are people out there who want to can Gruden. I get its after a bad loss to the Cowboys and that we have hovered just over .500 even in the best years under him so I am not saying he should be bullet proof but this season he and is staff have done a great coaching job just keep this team competitive.

 

I get what you're saying, and it all makes good sense that's detached from emotional reactions after yet another Cowboys loss, but ...

 

I'm not actively pushing for Gruden's firing. I'd be alright if he stayed here. But I am really worn down by the divisional losses, especially the losses to the Cowboys. If you haven't beaten the Cowboys at home EVER - four years running!!!! - you don't deserve to coach this team. You just don't. I am really worn down by the terrible clock management, the terrible red zone plays, the terrible performance on short yardage, the awful special teams performances year after year, the defensive collapses, the opening day losses (every year of his tenure). 

 

I definitely give him credit for keeping this team competitive this year. The injuries are just horrendous, and last night it all seemed to finally catch up to us. But most of my issues with Gruden have nothing to do with injuries, and they've gone on ever since he's been here. Last night he presided over a squad that had THIRTEEN men on the field. I've never seen that before in all my years watching this game. 

 

All that said, he's far from our biggest problem. Keep him, fire him, what difference will it really make? As long as the garbage that owns and runs this team remains, probably none at all. 

[MartinC]

13 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Ok.  I know.  The injuries.  The injuries!

 

Did I mention the injuries?

 

I get it.   

 

 

Good. Because there is maybe only one coach in the league who could have withstood the level of injuries we had this season. Ane even with him it's only a maybe.

8 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

All that said, he's far from our biggest problem. Keep him, fire him, what difference will it really make? As long as the garbage that owns and runs this team remains, probably none at all. 

 

Here we agree. Until we get a proper GM and front office structure everything else is window dressing. Ownership is whole other ball of wax and as long as he stays out of the GMs way (which is seems to have laregly done with Allen in place) it is what it is.

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I don't get the impression that Tomlin screams at anyone. I do think he creates an environment of accountability (same as Bellichick) where eventually the team is policing itself.

 

I think that's the goal of every coach, and some obviously do it far better than others.

 

I actually think Gruden does a fairly decent job of that. The locker room under Gruden has been remarkably stable and quiet by the standards of the Snyder Era. We've had done of the locker room instability stories we used to get all that time. That's with Cousins' contract situation and with a drunken GM feuding with everyone.

 

I don't watch the games and think that the team is wildly undisciplined or anything. I actually think they are pretty well coached - with extreme talent deficiencies in some key places.

I disagree... Undisciplined as far as on field?  We've been very undisciplined (on the field).  15 pts in 6 min vs NO... 21 pts in almost the same amount of time vs Minn.  Dropped balls, muffed punts, allowing THE MOST points to end the halves.  3 turnovers in darn near a single quarter during the game that is going to control your season.  TERRIBLE communication between coach and qb on IG penalty and on delay of game penalty.  13 MEN ON THE FIELD.  These are breakdowns that are not attributed directly to talent or injuries.  Had NO beat us 30 - 17 and we were never in it.. sure, I can agree that's an injury issue and we just weren't the better team.  These are not simply having backups in the game and the starters on the other team are better.

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I disagree... Undisciplined as far as on field?  We've been very undisciplined (on the field).  15 pts in 6 min vs NO... 21 pts in almost the same amount of time vs Minn.  Dropped balls, muffed punts, allowing THE MOST points to end the halves.  3 turnovers in darn near a single quarter during the game that is going to control your season.  

 

The communication and some of the game management decisions I give you. Not Gruden's real strength though he has improved.

 

The stuff you list above though - most of that is execution IMO and nothing to do with 'discipline' per se. That's on players. Players win games not coaches. Coaches put players in a position to win, players have to execute. Talent over coaching every time.

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

The communication and some of the game management decisions I give you. Not Gruden's real strength though he has improved.

 

The stuff you list above though - most of that is execution IMO and nothing to do with 'discipline' per se. That's on players. Players win games not coaches. Coaches put players in a position to win, players have to execute. Talent over coaching every time.

I dont disagree... but that leads back to discipline, as well as accountability.  Why wasn't D.Hall back to return the punt?  He filled in for Crowder when he was hurt.. he's also not starting so his legs are fresh.  Is it an upgrade?  NOPE.  But it holds Crowder accountable.  Why was Moses and Nseke left on an island on the right side?  Perine ran into Moses on one sack, but those two were getting ABUSED all game.  Why not bring a TE over to help?  

 

Attitude reflects leadership... these mistakes are not talent driven, and they're too consistent for me to say "players need to execute."  Well Jay, you're the coach, theyre not executing, what are you going to do about it?  He had no problem hiding Perine early in the season after a couple fumbles, and look where he's at now?  Why is Mo Harris good enough to be on kick return but can't take Crowder's snaps (before his concussion)?  

 

 

I purposely didnt mention the area's of the O-LIne that clearly we have no subs for, I understand that they are the only option, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do... especially when the season is on the line.

[GoDeep81]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

How many coaches in the NFL really do the "Throw the clipboards" thing? Rex Ryan was maybe the last of that breed. And he didn't exactly reinvent football. Tom Coughlin was the last red-faced maniac to win a title, I think. I feel like the models now are the soulless automatons like Bellichick and the cool uncles like Tomlin.

I get it, Im just asking for a little emotion, other than "wtf just happened" for 60 55 minutes per game.

[Jumbo]

i know most are being all they can be about the loss---sucked huge of course, but i wasn't blown away by it--on to topic

 

still a buy and it's not even much of a conversation for me really until i hear a better available option

 

i was just remembering the first year he was here and most were all in on rg3 and blaming jay for struggles in the passing game i was one of the first and few posting on how many receivers i saw running open on almost every play and then eventually more and more saw the same

 

i don't know yet if he's going to enjoy play-off caliber success here, but i still have a fairly good opinion of him as a coach and think his ceiling is yet to be reached, quite possibly by a margin, and think he still gets quite stupidity maligned most of the time here. i've written on his resume/credentials with other relevant support before, of course some of the criticism is certainly deserved--obviously clock stuff and better situational awareness, but even that still gets exaggerated or is also complicated by other factors interfering during actual game time (like bruce, for instance),

 

i've previously stated over the last two years till now, that jay's job security is a separate issue from Kirk

 

he needs to hire asst. hc if not finding an oc with which he can make things work better and get bruce and maybe one or two others more out of the loop--this i think he will do and wants to do

 

and old es tip---pay attention to what the rest of the nfl world thinks of our situations v what our own fan base thinks--i.e. when you see 90% of all nfl media/pros go solidly against what some segment of our always-conflicted fan base thinks, the larger more objective take of all those outsiders should be given due weight 

 

i like jay emo-wise, but the only interest i have is if he has a better chance to help this team win than available alternatives and i don't trust dan and bruce to just "do better than jay" as a given...i'd want to know who the actual available candidate is before considering firing him

 

he gets called all versions of moron here, and again, just a review of his resume and how he's regarded by his peers, along with my (and others of course) take on what i see of him here, leaves no doubt in my mind that he's no moron at all but sure does draw out the moron in more than a few folks in their critiques

 

btw, reading this and reacting to it as though i made a "jay is the best" or "so we can't criticize jay?" post would be...moronic...so don't let me know if you've done that...

 

 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

The other thing that blew my mind is why we didn't go man to man, stack the box and crash hard when it was clear that Dak's hand was messed up.  Force him to get over the top.  He showed later in the game that he could execute, but I don't remember seeing any real adjustment to try to force him to throw.  We kept up a 4 man rush and got blitz shy.  I would have (I know i'm not an NFL caliber coach) come at him with the house to try and make him move his feet and make a play.  He was ailing and we let him off the hook. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't think coaches are really THAT important in the overall scheme of things. It was only recently that I actually conceded that, "Ok....Bellichick makes a difference. I'll give you that one."

 

I think it begins with talent and then probably goes organization before it gets to coaches. There are obviously exceptions here.

 

Like I said, I think being Redskins coach is damn near impossible because of the organization. I think that if you replaced Jay tomorrow with Tomlin, we'd probably be worse in two years, because I imagine Tomlin openly feuding with Allen and players going over his head to Snyder and all the stuff we know and love from our history.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

I'm stunned there are people out there who want to can Gruden. I get its after a bad loss to the Cowboys and that we have hovered just over .500 even in the best years under him so I am not saying he should be bullet proof but this season he and is staff have done a great coaching job just keep this team competitive.

I think he should be fired from all personnel decisions, hire an OC and give up play-calling.  He had that with McVay, so it's not like he hasn't done it before.  He should absolutely stay involved in the offense, but we need 1 voice that runs practices, designs the offense, and holds position coaches accountable.  No more of this "Callahan installs the running game, Gruden/Cavanaugh collaborate on the passing game" bull crap.  There needs to be somebody accountable.  

 

Let Jay be the HC. That's a job in and of itself, and he needs to do 1 job.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

Injuries matter.

Sure do.  But the team was 9-7 in 2015 and 8-7-1 in 2016 without the rash of injuries.  Partly due to the fact that he hired the absolute worst defensive coordinator and coaching staff on the market.  So even without the injuries, and on teams WITH great offenses, he hasn't won more than 9 games in a season.  That's not terribly good.  And the win total has gone down from a high of 9 wins the last 2 seasons.  That's not good either.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

We are ranked 12th in the NFL in scoring and 11th in yards. Thats miraculous when you consider -

 

1. We have done it without consistent production from any WR (Crowder perhaps excepted but even he has been up and down this year)

Who's fault is it that Ryan Grant was penciled in as a starting WR in March?  Gruden.  That's a Gruden move.  Doctson and Pryor were both assigned 1 position (I think X), and Crowder the slot (I think Z), and Grant the other position (Y). I might have the letters screwed up, but Gruden said this in a presser about a month ago.  That was the plan.  Pryor/Doctson alternating time on one side, Grant on the other, Crowder in the slot.  That's a dumb plan.  It was a dumb plan in July, it was a dumb plan in September and it continues to be a dumb plan.  And it's Gruden's plan. So I'm not letting him off the hook for being creative and using CT and others to get production overcoming his own dumb plan.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

2. Jordan Reed has been injured all year and a shell of himself even when has played, which has not been often.

True, but this is also somewhat predictable.  And probably a big reason why VD is on the team. 

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

3. The O'line is a MASH unit. We have had I think 22 starting combinations along the line and are currently starting people who were on the street 3 weeks ago - those who are playing from the original line Williams, Schreff and Moses are all hurt and way less than 100%. Moses might be done for the year now anyway and its likely Trent gets shut down at some point.

This is a very valid explanation.  I grant this is hard to overcome.  Though, honestly, they still had chances in games with a fluky OL.  But they didn't win.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

4. One of the few bright spots is/was Chris Thompson. He's on IR. Him and an ageing TE in Davis are the only guys Cousins has really been able to consistently count on to make big plays for him.

Again, see dumb ass Gruden plan that led to this.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

Gruden has done more with less this season than any Redskins coach I can recall. In past years this level of offensive 'talent' would have resulted in a 3 or 4 win season and us being toward the bottom of the league in just about every statistical category. Gruden (along with Cousins) has done a wonderful job this season getting production from not a great deal.

I'm actually not sure if it's more Cousins or more Gruden that's responsible for winning 5 games.  Btw, there isn't much difference in the 3 or 4 wins that you quote an the 5 or 6 we will have this year.  A couple games.  Eh, whatever.  

 

Personally, I think Cousins is more attributable to the team being respectable, if you can call a 5-7 record respectable under any circumstance.  But I give Jay credit for keeping the team engaged through the injuries.  They played hard in Seattle and stole a game.  They almost beat the Saints in New Orleans. I give them credit for doing that.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

On defense we have also been hammered by injuries as well. How many ILB's have started, 6? 7? We lost Allen our best DE and Ioannidis who was having a great year is playing injured. Zach Brown is having achilles issues and is less than 100%. Norman and Breeland missed time.We have started about 5 safeties next to Swearinger.  A defense that started the season looking good has gradually fallen away.

The good news on defense is that there really is only 1 or 2 instances where you can point to and say, "boy that was a stupid plan."  Compton played for a game instead of Spaight (I beileve) and was completely exposed, so they went another direction the next week.  And Hall started at safety and was beaten like a drum, and the next week it was DE in there.

 

If I'm going to give either side of the ball more of a pass because of injuries, I give it to the defense.  I understand the offensive injuries hurt, but I just can't get over the fact that they had such a stupid plan to begin with.  

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

No team could survive the level of injuries we have had and been a real contender. That we have stayed even competitive is to the credit of all concerned. It might get ugly down the stretch with even more injuries and nothing for guys to really play for apart from pride. 

But, even WITH the injuries, you could argue we could have had a couple more wins.  That KC game (which was before most of the injuries) was a winnable game.  We had the Saints dead to rights, and blew it.  We have a wonderful propensity for getting leads and giving them up, or letting games get very close:

 

Rams.  Up 20-0, let them get all the way back to 20-20 before winning

Chiefs. Up 10-0 before giving up 14 un-answered points

49ers: Up 17-0 before letting a BAD team come back and tie the game, and then almost blew it at the end.

Saints. We had an 11 point lead going into the 4th quarter, scored 7, game up 18, lost in OT.  Totally blew the game.  

 

We stink at scoring and stopping people from scoring at the end of halves and games.  This has been a trend for more than a season.  That's gotta be on coaching.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

But Gruden absolutely should be back next year. He's a very good offensive coach who has grown into the HC role. He's not Joe Gibbs or Bill Belicheck - but I'd much rather have him as my head coach than say Jason Garrett.

 

I don't disagree that Gruden should be back next year. But I wouldn't just "status quo" the deal, let him continue to pick the players.

 

And here we come to the real problem.  Snyder and Allen and lack of accountability.  In fairness, the person who REALLY should go is Allen, because he's done squat over a long period of time, and mis-handled the Kirk thing to a degree that is almost un-fathomable.  He also allows Gruden to essentially pick the team and make dumb decisions with his staff.  There's no accountability anywhere.  Doug Williams has this funky job, not sure what his responsibility is...

 

The fact is that there is nobody really TO give the player selection job to, because Allen can't do it, and I'm not sure if Doug Williams is that guy.  So it's Gruden.

 

While I think Gruden does deserve to be back, he's proven nothing but an average coach who makes dumb decisions, can't manage the clock, coaches not to lose, and is in over his head.  

[Wildbunny]

3 hours ago, Capt'n Obvious said:

 

We are already in that circus. It has been ongoing for 20+ years. I don't think Gruden will lose his job, but all you have to do is look to the handling of the Scot Mccloughan departure to see the circus has never left town.

 

Injuries aside, Gruden must improve on his clock management and in game adjustments. He will get one more year I think, but those two areas have been shaky for him since he got here.

IG adjustments, clock management... Sure he could improve here. But that's the kind of stuff you might get through a long time of HC experience.

 

This said, I don't see how we've been a circus since he was here. There's no way he's responsible for the McCloughlan firing, not his job. And the team have been far from a circus during the season which is where it matters to him.

 

2 hours ago, NickyJ said:

I was one of the people that thought McVay was primary reason for abandoning the run. I have no shame in admitting that I was wrong about McVay. I'm also sure McVay feels absolutely humiliated and that one day his tears from the top of his division shall drop on us like rain each time our game against him is brought up.

Humiliated?

Gruden grew the guy and he got an HC gig. How was he humiliated in any way?

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Good. Because there is maybe only one coach in the league who could have withstood the level of injuries we had this season. Ane even with him it's only a maybe.

Given how close we were in a lot of games, I actually disagree.  I think there are several coaches that could have done a better job than Jay.  There's one for sure, and that's Bill.  But he's just good at everything.  

 

Hell, Jay's brother could do a better job, most likely.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I think Marvin and Jay are slightly above Norv. Norv's problem was that he simply could never right a situation once it started slipping away. He and Wade are the same in that regard.

 

Marvin will always steer his team right back to mediocrity.

At least Marvin has gotten his team to the playoffs 7 times, I'll give you that. He's probably the best of the 3 of them, and that's very much a knock against the other two.

 

I think Norv and Jay are completely interchangeable.  If you give them good talent, they'll win.  Both are good (if not great) offensive minds, players coaches, can't manage the game worth a damn, might prefer to be the play-caller than the HC.  Both teams make unimaginable mistakes at the worst times.  

 

Over 15 years as a HC (which, btw, I just can't imagine how he was a hC for 15 years), he was 114 - 122 - 1.  That's a .483 winning percentage.

 

Jay is 26-33-1.  That's .442.  

 

Marvin, FWIW, is 123 - 109 - 3.  .530

 

You are what your record says you are.  Jay is Norv.  Marvin is slightly better.  

 

[drtdrums]

I have never seen a team this injured. Ever. I cannot find anyone even close.

 

For coaching a civil war hospital tent, Jay has been excellent. I think there are legit criticisms of his in game handling of situational football but that is a coordinator problem, not a head coaching problem. We just lost the best OC in the league this year.

 

Firing him based on losses with this roster would be the dumbest move in a really long line of dumb moves by the FO.

 

If I am Snyder, I fire Allen and hire a real GM (since Allen simply will never relinquish control).

 

I direct the new GM to construct a new strength and conditioning program without the nephew on board.

 

I tell Jay he's got his pick of OCs. Go get em.

 

I pay Kirk whatever the hell it takes.

 

And then, if that number is too high to build the roster around him, I trade him.

 

Jay is not the problem. He's not even *a* problem.

[Skinsinparadise]

I disagree with the most of the core arguments against Jay.  But to play along if Jay is canned -- aren't these some variables to consider?:

 

A.  Makes this job less attractive for future aspiring coaches.  It's not lost on everyone that Jay has been given a bad hand this season so punishing him for it might be a factor in the decision making of future prospects looking at this job.   In the same way of what we heard in the previous off seasons about the FO position. 

 

B.  For those who like Kirk.  Kyle is gone, McVay is gone, Jay gone, too?   That likely decreases not increases the chances Kirk stays.

 

C.  We are trusting Dan-Bruce to upgrade on Jay?  They same people that brought us Zorn and Spurrier.  People are really curious and excited about what they got next up their sleeve? 

 

D.  The players seem to clearly like Jay.  This isn't like the McAdoo situation where we got player unrest.   What's the player reaction to dumping Jay?  How does it effect chemistry?

 

E.  Most importantly: stability.  We got to do a redo for systems both on offense and defense.  And go on that same rodeo which most NFL observers credit for being the lynchpin of losing franchises: "new beginnings" .  Instead of for example Kirk progressing in Jay's system and taking that next step.  He starts with a new system, again. 

 

F. For those who trust Scot's abilities -- without regurgitating the material.  There is some evidence that he doesn't think much of Doug as a personnel guy.  Conversely, we know he thinks Jay has a good eye for judging players in the draft.  Removing Jay -- likely means a bigger Doug stamp on things.  

[NickyJ]

34 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Humiliated?

Gruden grew the guy and he got an HC gig. How was he humiliated in any way?

That's my point. People "seem to also forget the Rams game this year" when talking about McVay because in the grand scheme of things, McVay is leading a team that's at the top of their division; Jay is leading a team that just got brutally kicked down to their place in ours. The Rams are the one good team we've beaten the entire season, so I think it's fair for people to envy McVay right now.

[Paul Cumberland]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

F. For those who trust Scot's abilities -- without regurgitating the material.  There is some evidence that he doesn't think much of Doug as a personnel guy.  Conversely, we know he thinks Jay has a good eye for judging players in the draft.  Removing Jay -- likely means a bigger Doug stamp on things.  

 

Everything you said in your last post is exactly on point with my view on things.  I did quote this last part to comment on and that is I really hope Scott Campbell learned a ton from SM while he was here with the hope he can be the real eye for talent and work with Jay to acquire it as SM did.  Next year's draft is going to be extremely important, IMO, to continue building around the foundation we have.  The blueprint is out there for successful franchises and that means drafting well as it's the core of your team, cheap talent and quality depth.

[Wildbunny]

9 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

That's my point. People "seem to also forget the Rams game this year" when talking about McVay because in the grand scheme of things, McVay is leading a team that's at the top of their division; Jay is leading a team that just got brutally kicked down to their place in ours. The Rams are the one good team we've beaten the entire season, so I think it's fair for people to envy McVay right now.

Point was in direct confrontations:

Jay 1

McVay 0

 

Now if you want to start a thread to compares full seasons with both, go on, we'll be able to talk injuries, SoS and a whole lot of stuff like that...

[DM72]

People love using injuries as a crutch. As if we’re the only team that have injuries. Dallas was a joke leading up to last night and they kicked our teeth down our throats.

 

It’s gonna be funny watching some literally turn into pretzels coming up with excuses when we’re 7-9 or 9-7 with a healthier squad next year.

[redskinss]

[NickyJ]

25 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Point was in direct confrontations:

Jay 1

McVay 0

 

Now if you want to start a thread to compares full seasons with both, go on, we'll be able to talk injuries, SoS and a whole lot of stuff like that...

Unfortunately, we aren't likely to get more than one direct confrontation each year. If the complete debacles that the Saints, Cowboys, and other hideous games that we played are able to be erased for you by beating McVay one time, I envy you.

 

I've waffled back and forth on Jay before, but in each game, Jay makes at least 3 inexplicable botches, capitalized by 13 men on the field, all lined up and not a single one of them aware that they shouldn't be on the field. I put that on coaching, and no amount of injuries can excuse it. If he needs help on the sideline managing all that, fine. He should have gotten himself that help by the time his fourth season as a head coach began.