Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[ILikeBilly]

30 minutes ago, DM72 said:

.....And I’m certainly not here to defend a Cowboy, but are you seriously comparing Morris to Elliott? We’re all Redskins fans and I think close to 100% would call that ridiculous.

Compare their rookie seasons.  Compare this years stats.  Morris was running at a HoF pace his first two years.  Had over 1,000 his first 3 years.  What is your definition of "ridiculous"?

[DM72]

34 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

Compare their rookie seasons.  Compare this years stats.  Morris was running at a HoF pace his first two years.  Had over 1,000 his first 3 years.  What is your definition of "ridiculous"?

 

A lot of Morris’ early success was due to RGIII and the Read option. Elliott can turn a screen into an 80 yd TD. 

 

Not trying to downplay Morris because he was a good Back for us his first few years, but Elliott is on another level.

[ILikeBilly]

10 hours ago, DM72 said:

 

A lot of Morris’ early success was due to RGIII and the Read option. Elliott can turn a screen into an 80 yd TD. 

 

Not trying to downplay Morris because he was a good Back for us his first few years, but Elliott is on another level.

A lot of Elliot's early success is due to one of the top 3 olines in the NFL.  Not to put down Elliott, but Morris year 2 > Elliott year 2 (total yards and yards per carry.)  Yes, I think Elliott will at the close of both of their careers will be better than Morris.  However, you said it was ridiculous to compare the 2.  Call it what you will, but their first years were almost identical for yards and TDs.  Morris 2nd year better than Elliott 2nd year.  Plus RGIII was a gimp in year 2, so you can't put year 2 on the system.  No one was worried about Robert running in year 2.

[DM72]

Alfred’s numbers greatly decreased his second year when RGIII wasn’t RGIII anymore.

 

Like I said, Elliott’s a homerun hitter every time he touches the ball. He has speed and power. It’s not just his OL.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Yeah, it's def a combo of him and the O-line together.  Near impossible to stop which is what made Dak's job so much easier.  There are similarities to Griffin/Alf's first season to Dak/Zeke, which is the threat of the run making the quarterbacks job much easier than in normal circumstances.  Everyone benefitted from it.

[skinzplay]

Sell. And we'll probably end up losing a very good assistant coach while waiting out this mediocrity from Gruden. Matt Cavanaugh is gonna be a very good HC one of these days, and it won't be long; and a much better one than what we currently have in Ashburn. The NFL team that gets him will be lucky.

[Wildbunny]

23 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

Sell. And we'll probably end up losing a very good assistant coach while waiting out this mediocrity from Gruden. Matt Cavanaugh is gonna be a very good HC one of these days, and it won't be long; and a much better one than what we currently have in Ashburn. The NFL team that gets him will be lucky.

Oh seriously?

I mean Cavanaugh is the next NFL savior?

 

Caavanaugh is 61 and have already been an OC for 12 years between 1997 - 2008 for the Bears, Ravens & Steelers. 

 

Looks like the NFL has already let the Cavanaugh bandwagon go...

 

But still if I play your game and believe in the Cavanaugh's hype. Then well, after McVay that becamed this year's NFL savior... Now it's Cavanaugh... OK cool. 

You guys are drooling over Luke and Leia and are ****ing about Obi-Wan Kenobi...

[skinzplay]

Not savior, just a guy who is deserving of a shot, in my opinion........assuming, of course, that he wants one. I hope so. Mike Zimmer is 61, and only got his first HG gig 3 seasons ago. Teams could do worse by hiring a college coach with an impressive record against teams like Fondue State and Sassafras Tech, or seemingly hot DCs or OCs in the NFL whose success is really the product of very good leadership from the HC. I'd rather take my chances on a guy like Cavanaugh. Could be wrong -- wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last --  just ask my wife!!

[Alexa]

If I owned the Redskins I probably would have fired Gruden after the Saints game. I would have fired him before he got to the locker room and he would've had to find his own way back to DC...  LOL. 

 

[Leonard Washington]

I may be in the minority, but I think Jay has improved over the years. 

[skins island connection]

Gruden has to improve in future years. The 9-7 seasons will grow old quickly if the level of play from the starters pre-injuries is still at the same level.

Someone will have to fall on the blade. Mediocre coaches end up having 4 yr careers with teams, sometimes less. The 'we gotta get better' speeches post-games won't save him.

[skinfan2k]

56 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Gruden has to improve in future years. The 9-7 seasons will grow old quickly if the level of play from the starters pre-injuries is still at the same level.

Someone will have to fall on the blade. Mediocre coaches end up having 4 yr careers with teams, sometimes less. The 'we gotta get better' speeches post-games won't save him.

give him a better roster.  You guys think you can improve talent in 3 years. You're dead wrong.  To fix this organization, it will take 5+.  We finally have tremendous depth.  We just need 1-2 years of hitting on rounds 1-3. 

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, skinfan2k said:

give him a better roster.  You guys think you can improve talent in 3 years. You're dead wrong.  To fix this organization, it will take 5+.  We finally have tremendous depth.  We just need 1-2 years of hitting on rounds 1-3. 

 

 Actually, we already have a pretty good roster; not great, but pretty good. Its the injuries that has plagued this team, with the exception of the 2 removed WRs.

 Defense and o-line help with another top WR and this team could go places. That is, unless the injury bug takes up residence in Redskins Park.

[Skinsinparadise]

...Gruden is determined, a little delusional and endlessly resourceful. No one is made to handle this situation, not with all the attrition and weekly adjustments to the personnel that happens to be available. But he has done better than most. It’s not just because the offense — his creation and his passion — has managed to rank 11th in the NFL in yards despite all the issues.

 

The highest praise you can give Gruden and the entire team is that, through it all, they have fielded a product competitive enough for you to keep watching and evaluating as if they were healthy. The medical sideshow has hampered this season, but it hasn’t overwhelmed it....

 

The complications facing Washington and Dallas are a little different, but here’s the common ground: Both 5-6 teams are severely diminished products about to participate in a de facto playoff elimination game. The victor gets to hope another week. The loser can start planning for next season. But while Washington’s version of mediocrity includes consistent competitiveness and a couple of stunning and uplifting victories, Dallas has fallen apart without some of its key players.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/for-ever-positive-jay-gruden-injuries-dont-matter-as-much-as-the-mind-set/2017/11/29/f288c82c-d535-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html?utm_term=.752843185b65

[DM72]

Just in case we lose and people want to use the injury excuse. We’re actually favored in tonight’s game.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, DM72 said:

Just in case we lose and people want to use the injury excuse. We’re actually favored in tonight’s game.

 

 

I was not aware that gambling lines dictated injury "excuse" usage.

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

17 hours ago, Leonard Washington said:

I may be in the minority, but I think Jay has improved over the years. 

I'm with you - I think this is his best season. We still occasionally blow games, but a lot of teams do that. Simply put, he's the single person in the organization who I don't think we can lose. If I could protect one person, it would be him followed very closely by Cousins (if he wanted to stay). 

[MisterPinstripe]

I hope we stick with Gruden for awhile, at least unless something big changes. I firmly believe that if we didnt have so many injuries on both sides of the ball we would be at 7-4 and headed to the playoffs with the last part of the schedule. And that is with all of those injuries ravaging us through the hardest schedule in the NFL by FAR. Great job by Jay and his staff. Its got me excited for next year with everyone back healthy.

[MartinC]

19 hours ago, Leonard Washington said:

I may be in the minority, but I think Jay has improved over the years. 

 

I don't think you are in the minority. If you are I'm right there with you.

 

Jay has done a great job this year IMO. He's held this all together through a ridiculous spate of injuries and in a year the GM was canned just before the draft. The wheels have stayed on the bus and the team clearly enjoy playing for him. On the offensive side of the ball he has performed minor miracles conjuring offensive performance and points from a team that has been starting 3 or 4 guys on the O'line who are backups or backups to backups and with a receiving group which has been mediocre at best. 

 

Contrast what Jay has done with what's happening in New York with the Giants when they lost two receivers. Or the implosion of the Dallas offense when they lost Elliott and Smith. 

 

Frankly the only purpose of a thread on the Head Coach this season is to say thank you.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, MartinC said:

Frankly the only purpose of a thread on the Head Coach this season is to say thank you

I will politely disagree.  But that's for another day.

 

Today, Jay just needs to beat the Cowboys.  If the season ends tonight, tomorrow we can discuss further.

 

I hope to God that we don't have to have that discussion tomorrow.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Actually, we already have a pretty good roster; not great, but pretty good. Its the injuries that has plagued this team, with the exception of the 2 removed WRs.

 Defense and o-line help with another top WR and this team could go places. That is, unless the injury bug takes up residence in Redskins Park.

When healthy, the OL only really needs 1 new player at LG.  I said over the past off-season, if a LG is going to prevent you from winning a SB, you're doing something wrong.  But we need a new LG.  

 

Here's the big question on offense, and one that Jay needs to figure out this off-season: what type of run-game are we going to have.  And then we need to fill in players to fit that.  Are we a zone-stretch run team?  It looks like Perine is best at this type of run, and that's fine.  In that case, we need better blocking TEs, and better blocking WRs.  

 

Or are we an inside-run power team.  If that's the case, then we probably need a new back, and maybe a new LG and C, because neither are really power run-blocking types.  Then you compliment that with serious speed on the outside.  

 

Either way will work, we just need to pick a direction and commit to it.  We've had mis-matched personnel since 2013.  That needs to get fixed.  

 

Defensively, when healthy, we've got some good players in a lot of spots.  Need some help on the DL, get more push from the DEs.  Secondary is pretty solid, though there's a big question as to whether Bree comes back.  LBs are ok, though I don't think Foster comes back, so you have a position open.  

 

It's a pretty good roster when healthy.  The question is, where can you go from a "good" player to a "great" player, because in order to win the SB, you need 2-3 GREAT players on each side of the ball.  

 

I would argue that we currently have maybe 1 or 2 great players.  CT is Great on offense.  Norman is Great on defense.  (This is Kirk-less post.  I am not going there.)  Allen could be great on defense.  I suppose Doctson could be great on offense. 

 

But you need some real blue-chippers.  And we don't have a lot of them right now.  And while Kerrigan might be my favorite player on the team, I don't consider him a blue-chipper.  

 

[Warhead36]

I'd put Reed as a blue chipper on offense but he's hurt too much. Doc could be, but not sure yet. Silverback is but blue chip LTs don't impact games the way the skill players do. Cousins is borderline blue chip.

 

The D has Norman as its only blue chipper although I think Allen will be in a year or two.

[skins island connection]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

When healthy, the OL only really needs 1 new player at LG.  I said over the past off-season, if a LG is going to prevent you from winning a SB, you're doing something wrong.  But we need a new LG.  

 

Here's the big question on offense, and one that Jay needs to figure out this off-season: what type of run-game are we going to have.  And then we need to fill in players to fit that.  Are we a zone-stretch run team?  It looks like Perine is best at this type of run, and that's fine.  In that case, we need better blocking TEs, and better blocking WRs.  

 

Or are we an inside-run power team.  If that's the case, then we probably need a new back, and maybe a new LG and C, because neither are really power run-blocking types.  Then you compliment that with serious speed on the outside.  

 

Either way will work, we just need to pick a direction and commit to it.  We've had mis-matched personnel since 2013.  That needs to get fixed.  

 

 Yea, I was thinking more on the lines of a few back-up o-linemen, mainly for substitution and future replacements, eventually a couple will either retire or just give up from the weekly bashing they go through.

 

 now, the RB situation, I totally agree; the current backs sans Thompson are " in the middle " or " undecided " types of backs; decent overall but nothing jumps out and makes you say wow.

 I just hope Gruden goes in the direction of a fullback, who can help the line plow through a defense and on occasion carry/catch a few himself. But, I thought there was something said that Gruden doesn't like the fullback position; maybe I'm wrong, I just thought I read it somewhere, likely in a thread.

A guy like Sellars, solid, hard hitting, beast type of FB. He wasn't the biggest guy on the field, but he played like one of the biggest.

 

 

 

 

 

[NickyJ]

20 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

I just hope Gruden goes in the direction of a fullback, who can help the line plow through a defense and on occasion carry/catch a few himself. But, I thought there was something said that Gruden doesn't like the fullback position; maybe I'm wrong, I just thought I read it somewhere, likely in a thread.

In Gruden's 7 years of being an OC/HC, he's used an FB for 2 seasons: 2011 when he first took over the Bengals, and 2014 when he first took over the Redskins. Unless Gruden has a dramatic change of plans on offense, we will not be getting a fullback.

[campbellcooleyconnection]

Sell Sell Sell Sell Sell Sell