Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[Paul Cumberland]

10 minutes ago, DM72 said:

Please. Like we’re the only team that has injuries. Philly has had significant injuries too. Dallas is missing their best players on defense and offense and their secondary is garbage. There’s no excuses Thursday.

 

But by far the weakest excuse is, we played a hard schedule. That’s one weak excuse. Never understood that one.

 

Neither is an excuse.  And yes, it's a matter of life in the NFL - for all teams.  But this is a Buy or Sell Gruden thread.  It is my belief that he's done an excellent job with the hand he's been dealt.  The FO gets some credit for finding depth and Gruden gets a ton of credit for having the coaches to coach them up to actually be competitive and prepared at this stage of the year.  And IMO, that's deserving of coach of the year consideration.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 minutes ago, DM72 said:

 

Please. Like we’re the only team that has injuries. Philly has had significant injuries too. Dallas is missing their best players on defense and offense and their secondary is garbage. There’s no excuses Thursday.

 

But by far the weakest excuse is, we played a hard schedule. That’s one weak excuse. Never understood that one.

 

When the guys calling the game constantly make mention of just how bad it is, every game, I think it's safe to say that it's not an excuse - it's a reason.

 

It's a fact that we've played the hardest schedule in football.  Again, there is a reason folks outside of this fan base are talking about it...

 

 

[justice98]

27 minutes ago, Paul Cumberland said:

 

Or you're doing what you should be doing with the talent at hand.  And in this year's case, an excellent job.

 

 

At full strength, I'd agree...  But we're not at full strength and haven't been since week 2...  We're out there with 3rd and 4th string guys..   Guys that were cut in training camp..  Guys signed off the street the same week they start.   To me, if Gruden can have us .500 this year, he should be considered for coach of the year.

 

It's week 12, nobody is at full strength.  Especially none of these teams coming up.  Probably 25 teams have a "if only this guy(s) were playing" sob story this time of year.  

[justice98]

21 minutes ago, DM72 said:

 

Please. Like we’re the only team that has injuries. Philly has had significant injuries too. Dallas is missing their best players on defense and offense and their secondary is garbage. There’s no excuses Thursday.

 

But by far the weakest excuse is, we played a hard schedule. That’s one weak excuse. Never understood that one.

 

Agreed.  The strength of schedule isnt why Doctson dropped the ball in KC or why the defense had a total meltdown or got an intentional grounding in New Orleans with a chance to win.

[Paul Cumberland]

8 minutes ago, justice98 said:

It's week 12, nobody is at full strength.  Especially none of these teams coming up.  Probably 25 teams have a "if only this guy(s) were playing" sob story this time of year.  

 

No disagreement here.  And I'd venture a guess all 32 teams would like to have at least 1 of their players back.  Pretty sure for this week's game, Cowboys would love to have Zeke and Sean Lee playing and their starting OL completely healthy.  All teams are dealt the hand they play.  Depth is a key component to not dropping off a cliff.  Coaching that depth is also key.  We've done, with the staff Gruden's assembled, an amazing job this year keeping this team competitive.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, justice98 said:

 

It's week 12, nobody is at full strength.  Especially none of these teams coming up.  Probably 25 teams have a "if only this guy(s) were playing" sob story this time of year.  

It's not about if only 1 guy plays though.  We have 7 opening day starters on IR.  That's just IR, look at all the games missed or guys playing that probably shouldn't be every single week.  It's the worst I've seen in all my years of being a fan.  I have never been one to rely on excuses for this teams shortcomings.  But this season has been a perfect storm of a brutal schedule and catastrophic injuries.  I'm shocked that we're even having this conversation, as if you guys don't see the lengthy injury list and guys dropping like flies every single week we play.  Seeing guys you've never even heard of lining up as starters every single week.  I'd slam the FO about depth but what can they really do?

[justice98]

21 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It's not about if only 1 guy plays though.  We have 7 opening day starters on IR.  That's just IR, look at all the games missed or guys playing that probably shouldn't be every single week.  It's the worst I've seen in all my years of being a fan.  I have never been one to rely on excuses for this teams shortcomings.  But this season has been a perfect storm of a brutal schedule and catastrophic injuries.  I'm shocked that we're even having this conversation, as if you guys don't see the lengthy injury list and guys dropping like flies every single week we play.  Seeing guys you've never even heard of lining up as starters every single week.  I'd slam the FO about depth but what can they really do?

 

The Seahawks have multiple key starters on IR, the Texans, Green Bay, Detroit, Arizona, Giants. We are not unique, just relative to what it usually is for us, it's worse than normal.

 

We're lucky we didnt have our season torpedeoed by having to trot out Brett Hundley or Tom Savage every week.  We at least have a chance. Somebody always has it worse.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, justice98 said:

 

The Seahawks have multiple key starters on IR, the Texans, Green Bay, Detroit, Arizona, Giants. We are not unique, just relative to what it usually is for us, it's worse than normal.

 

We're lucky we didnt have our season torpedeoed by having to trot out Brett Hundley or Tom Savage every week.  We at least have a chance. Somebody always has it worse.

I'm not really sure how Detroit fits into that mix.  Seattle is now starting to lose key guys and I'd imagine their record will take a hit for it down the stretch.  But every other team you listed absolutely blows this season as a result of injuries, so that's not doing much to back up the point you're trying to make. 

 

My honest assessment, you guys are just sick of losing and want blood.  I can't hate you for it as it's the Redskins way under Dan's ownership. 

 

 

[William Barbour]

9 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

What is our identity exactly?

 

Winning and progress begets consistency.  You earn consistency, you dont just get handed it hoping for the best.  

 

This team makes bad hires, that's why they turn over coaches so much.  It's not because Snyder is trigger happy.  These dudes deserved the door.  As if this franchise would be better off if they had more years of Norv, Spurrier, Zorn, and Shanahan.  I guess we parted with those guys too soon cuz success was right around the corner.  They just needed more time.

I don't remember any of those coaches you mentioned having back to back winning seasons and getting production out of players like Ryan Grant.

 

Teams that continue to be a revolving door remain a revolving door. Nothing changes that. 

 

Players love Jay, he handles the terrible media around here well, and he's proven he can win games with 2nd stringers. 

 

Not sure what else you would want. The arrow is pointing up, not down. 

 

I don't know why fans think coaches, players Front offices can't improve at their jobs over time. Consistent improvement will eventually cap out to consistent success. 

[Wildbunny]

42 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

The Seahawks have multiple key starters on IR, the Texans, Green Bay, Detroit, Arizona, Giants. We are not unique, just relative to what it usually is for us, it's worse than normal.

 

We're lucky we didnt have our season torpedeoed by having to trot out Brett Hundley or Tom Savage every week.  We at least have a chance. Somebody always has it worse.

I don't know how it's going elsewhere, and I don't really care.

 

We have 75 guys on the roster or something.

With 15 guys on IR and 17 also nursing injuries, that's half the team that is injured.

 

As I've said in the injury thread, it's not about the IR guys (except when it's A.Rod, obviously), it's about all the others and everything that goes with it.

 

Now I'd like to see what is the % of injured players (both IR and non IR ) for every teams. Then do the % with non IR guys regarding the 53. I'm pretty sure we'll be way above every one else. 

 

Would you have the same position regarding McCarthy and the Packers? That is part of the context of the season. Which have to be taken into account when evaluating your HC. If you're removing every context your evaluation will most likely be wrong. He's been dealt a tough hand this year. 

[justice98]

51 minutes ago, William Barbour said:

I don't remember any of those coaches you mentioned having back to back winning seasons and getting production out of players like Ryan Grant.

 

Teams that continue to be a revolving door remain a revolving door. Nothing changes that. 

 

Players love Jay, he handles the terrible media around here well, and he's proven he can win games with 2nd stringers. 

 

Not sure what else you would want. The arrow is pointing up, not down. 

 

I don't know why fans think coaches, players Front offices can't improve at their jobs over time. Consistent improvement will eventually cap out to consistent success. 

 

To your first point, Norv did....twice.  Five of his last 6 were +.500, if you wanna get technical.  And people were tired of him.  And he got a 1000 yard season out of Albert Connell, who was out of the league at 28.  Grant is 27.  

 

I dont know how you can say the arrow is pointing up when the record could still go down for the second straight year.  At best, they're treading water and trending sideways.  If people are fine with that, then have at it.  A couple years from now when we have 4 straight years of 7-9 to 9-7 territory, we'll revisit this convo. 

 

I question the consistent improvement part.  They had the spike from year 1 to year 2, since then, kinda going in the wrong direction, IMO.  They may seem like they're trending up, but are they really.

[William Barbour]

2 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

To your first point, Norv did....twice.  Five of his last 6 were +.500, if you wanna get technical.  And people were tired of him.  And he got a 1000 yard season out of Albert Connell, who was out of the league at 28.  Grant is 27.  

 

I dont know how you can say the arrow is pointing up when the record could still go down for the second straight year.  At best, they're treading water and trending sideways.  If people are fine with that, then have at it.  A couple years from now when we have 4 straight years of 7-9 to 9-7 territory, we'll revisit this convo. 

 

I question the consistent improvement part.  They had the spike from year 1 to year 2, since then, kinda going in the wrong direction, IMO.  They may seem like they're trending up, but are they really.

 

You're comparing Norv to Jay. Apple's and Oranges. Norv was here for 7 years and his last few were with Vinny destroying the team.

 

With saying that. Jay has improved since day 1 here. Back to Back winning seasons is progression no matter how you twist it. 

 

You keep saying "could". Like you're hoping it turns bad to support your argument. When we "could" wait for the season to end and see where we are.....

 

We "could" be 10-6. Which would be amazing considering the bulk or our schedule was toughest in league and the injuries we had. 

 

Jay is great with the lockerroom, great with Kirk(I believe his system allows many QBs to be successful), On great terms with the rest of the Front Office. Record aside, if you watch the games. You can clearly tell this team has gotten better from Year 1 Gruden to Year 3 Gruden. Needle is going up.

[lead commander]

jay has done a outstanding job with this team this season,all the injuries he had to adjust to was as good as you can do as a coach...i hope they sign kirk and continue to add parts to the team...jay gruden i tip my hat to you man,i truly believe you handle this season with all the injuries very well...now go whip some cowboys ass....

[DM72]

1 hour ago, William Barbour said:

 

You're comparing Norv to Jay. Apple's and Oranges. Norv was here for 7 years and his last few were with Vinny destroying the team.

 

With saying that. Jay has improved since day 1 here. Back to Back winning seasons is progression no matter how you twist it. 

 

You keep saying "could". Like you're hoping it turns bad to support your argument. When we "could" wait for the season to end and see where we are.....

 

We "could" be 10-6. Which would be amazing considering the bulk or our schedule was toughest in league and the injuries we had. 

 

Jay is great with the lockerroom, great with Kirk(I believe his system allows many QBs to be successful), On great terms with the rest of the Front Office. Record aside, if you watch the games. You can clearly tell this team has gotten better from Year 1 Gruden to Year 3 Gruden. Needle is going up.

 

Nobody here, except that one poster that pretends to be a Redskins fan, wants to see the Redskins fail. But results matter. Right now, it’s the same thing, different year. We still blow leads. Defense can’t get off the field in crucial times. Bad clock management. We still have Red Zone problems. How many leads have we blown in the 2nd half? Our defense is actually ranked just below what it was last year. We still struggle to beat really bad teams. 

 

Look, I would want nothing better than for this team to win the rest of its games and maybe eek out a playoff birth. I just don’t see it happening under Gruden. I can see us losing to one of these really bad teams we got coming up. And no, this is an argument I do not want to win. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

What I don't get is if this team loses a game down the stretch, that's an indictment on Gruden?

 

Sure, if the team comes out, lays a few eggs, appears disinterested, whatever... I can see that.

 

But if that happens it'd be the first time I've seen this group do that.

[DM72]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Sure, if the team comes out, lays a few eggs, appears disinterested, whatever... I can see that.

 

But if that happens it'd be the first time I've seen this group do that.

 

The two games last year against the Panthers and more noticeably the home game against the Giants ring a bell?

 

I’m not in those guys heads, but they came out as if they were expecting the Giants to mail it in.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I think that's something that we as fans think we know what's going on but really have no idea about.  Sometimes folks get beat, no matter how jacked or prepared the coaches make them.  The other guys get paid too.  Typically the team with better players wins.  We don't normally have the better players.  

[DM72]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think that's something that we as fans think we know what's going on but really have no idea about.  Sometimes folks get beat, no matter how jacked or prepared the coaches make them.  The other guys get paid too.  Typically the team with better players wins.  We don't normally have the better players.  

 

You look up and down the NFL, I really don’t think our talent is all that bad. Some teams are better coached. Are teams like Carolina and LA Rams all that much more talented than we are? If any?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Up front, particularly on defense, hell yes they are.

[DM72]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Up front, particularly on defense, hell yes they are.

 

That’s easy because they (Rams) have the best defensive lineman in the game.   What about the secondary? What about offense? Are they any better?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I firmly believe that everything starts up front and the better it is there, the better it is everywhere.  

 

We finally caught a glimpse of that early in the season with a healthy Allen and MI.  Since that time, everything around and behind them looks much worse.

 

As for the offense, Todd Gurley makes a huge difference.  I can't imagine how good Kirk would be if he had the threat of Gurley behind him.

[SkinsFTW]

57 minutes ago, DM72 said:

 

You look up and down the NFL, I really don’t think our talent is all that bad. Some teams are better coached. Are teams like Carolina and LA Rams all that much more talented than we are? If any?

 

Can you name the 5 starting OL on the Redskins for the past 3-4 games and then tell me those guys are just as good as the rest of the NFL?

 

Meanwhile Dallas loses 1 tackle and that is their excuse for nothing working 3 straight games.

[DM72]

10 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Can you name the 5 starting OL on the Redskins for the past 3-4 games and then tell me those guys are just as good as the rest of the NFL?

 

Meanwhile Dallas loses 1 tackle and that is their excuse for nothing working 3 straight games.

 

Our OL has not been a problem. Yeah, Kirk gets sacked, but he’s not back there running for his life. As for run blocking, we have the same trouble even when all of our starters are in. 

 

As for Dallas. I think most blame their lack of success on Elliott not being in the lineup.

[SkinsFTW]

So you can't name them apparently.

 

He gets sacked 3x his normal rate, but he's not back there getting chased by Negan with Lucille so he's fine. 

 

Btw Alfred Morris is averaging 5ypc and has as many 20 yard runs as Elliot this year. Sounds like more cowturd excuses to me. 

[DM72]

And Kirk is the 23rd most sacked QB in the league. So our pass blocking can’t be the problem.

 

And I’m certainly not here to defend a Cowboy, but are you seriously comparing Morris to Elliott? We’re all Redskins fans and I think close to 100% would call that ridiculous.