Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[Cooleyfan1993]

5 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Well at the beginning of the year there's 32 teams competing for the SB.

As of now, there's still 29 in the mix as the 49ers , the Giants and Browns are out.

3-7 teams are close to be out of the race. (Those are Broncos, Bears, Colts).

 

And every team prepares for this. They all aim at that at the beginning of the season.There's not a player, not a coach, not an owner that plays to not win it.

Actually, the browns are still mathematically alive  

 

of course every other team would have to, um, not show up, but still ??

[PapaLazarou]

As an OC? Buy. HC? Sell. Same problems, different year. 

[skins island connection]

Well, this game against the Giants showed once again in pressure situations there is mis-communication or no communication between HC and QB.

Luckily the refs didn't see Cousins call for another time out, but it was all for nothing anyway, as they had to punt after the delay of game penalty.

 

 These plays; THESE PLAYS, are what good coaches handle with ease, know what they're doing, have everything planned out and scenarios all figured out.

 But not Gruden. I don't have the patience to go back and count the times over the last couple of years that Gruden has stumbled during 2 minute warnings before the half and ends of games. It is baffling, mind-blowing how this same problem can continually occur.

 

Also, we played a very tough schedule so far this year [ week 12 ] and have been competitive in most all of them, even leading in quite a few.

Gruden may get credit for that, or at least some credit, but against weaker teams like the Giants, it should have been an easy sunday stroll through the park type of game, but they play down or up to their competition. That falls on coaching. The previous 2 games [ Vikings & Saints ] with top defenses, we put up a lot of points on them, only to lose. The Vikings game the defense simply went to sleep, being they're not considered a scoring juggernaut, and yes the majority of blame should fall on Manusky, but Gruden is the HC and that position HAS to be accountable as well. The Saints game, once again the defense went to sleep late in the game, and Gruden calling for a ball to be thrown out of bounds, essentially wasting a down for nothing late in the game to possibly get a win, then KC either not getting the message to the other players or whatever the excuse, the blame still falls on Gruden.

 

In the Giants game, he continued to try to run straight up the middle, not getting anywhere, and it took him almost 3 full qtrs. to FINALLY call outside running plays, which worked! At worst, that is a halftime adjustment, not 3 qtrs.

 

But the boggled 4th dn play where Cousins didn't get the play, that has been going on far too much, and Gruden isn't learning from his mistakes. He is too emotionally connected in the game to separate himself enough to be calling plays. The Gameday message board blew up when that happened, because everyone saw it with their own eyes instead of hearing about it second-hand.

It won't stop. That is a bad habit ha cannot shake or correct; its a mental lapse that has and will continue to cost this team wins. Imagine if he had done that in a SuperBowl or Championship game? Well, IF this team ever gets that far, it will happen, and it will cost this team.

[Warhead36]

I'm a Gruden supporter but I agree with all that you posted. With that said, I honestly think we're better off keeping Gruden and hoping he can learn to improve in that area because chances are whatever coach we hire will probably also suck in that dept. while also not having Gruden's leadership qualities or general offensive design scheming ability.

[NoCalMike]

Question: when the 'Skins called a timeout on the 4th & 1.....did the playclock completely reset or at least not start running until it was supposed to?  It seemed like coming out of a timeout, it was down to under :10 way too quickly. 

[Gibbit]

that delay of game penalty after the time out was clearly some screw-up with the play clock. Had to of been if Jay called a timeout...game didn't even go to commercial, he calls timeout...sends offense back in and all a sudden clock is down to 6 seconds when they huddle up?

Did jay call the first timeout, or was there an official **** up? 

[Warhead36]

We shouldn't even need to call a TO there. A good coach thinks ahead of time like "okay, if its 4th and X, we're going for it, and I got this play call in mind." Now maybe you line up, then call a TO because the D gives you a bad look, but you never ever line up to punt, then call a TO, THEN LET THE PLAYCLOCK EXPIRE. That's just abyssmal and that is on Gruden. And again, I've been a Gruden supporter, but that was horrific.

 

Beyond that though, I don't think he was awful or anything tonight. I mean playcalling, okay you could argue, but its tough to scheme around three backups(including one of them as a 3rd string)on the OL, a 3rd string TE, 3rd/4th string RBs, and little to no credible WR threats outside of a 5'8'' slot guy.

[Reaper Skins]

It's hard to stroll to victory when your whole team is on crutches.  Regardless of the opponent.

 

Anyone who thought this game would be anything but a sloppy divisional nailbiter was fooling themselves.

[SkinsGuy]

25 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

ruden may get credit for that, or at least some credit, but against weaker teams like the Giants, it should have been an easy sunday stroll through the park type of game, but they play down or up to their competition. That falls on coaching.

 

This one statement in your post is pretty silly.

 

Considering the massive amounts of injuries the Redskins are dealing with, no game will be a "stroll in the park" for them. Not even a game against a bad 2-9 Giants team.

 

It won't be a "stroll in the park" next week against a reeling Elliot-less Cowboy team, either.

 

I believe Gruden deserves a lot more credit that he is getting for keeping a team together that could've easily fallen apart with injuries.

[NoCalMike]

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We shouldn't even need to call a TO there. A good coach thinks ahead of time like "okay, if its 4th and X, we're going for it, and I got this play call in mind."

 

Oh for sure.  It's 4th & 1....if you are going for it. GO FOR IT......there is no reason to run the punt team on, then run them off.

[Paul Cumberland]

That 4th and 1 bugged me too.  Thought we should have gone for it at that field position anyway and the whole punt team off, TO and having the offense come back out was bizarre...  but what I don't get is, doesn't the play clock start over after a timeout?  Seems they had no time to get a play setup before Kirk trying to call another timeout, which isn't allowed..

[TheCoach22]

He needs a sidekick to call plays, or at the very least hold his hand the last four minutes of halves and games. He can't walk and chew gum from a coaching standpoint (call plays while managing the pressure moments and intangibles within a close game). He simply can't. That's fine. His scheme is good, he knows where the mismatches are and usually calls plays accordingly... the players seem to like him, and keep playing for him in the face of injuries. BUT, they simply continue to "fluster cluck" the things that separate good from great:

 

-lack of hurry up offense

-inability to play inside two/four min

-inability to put teams away

-red zone ineptitude

-short yardage situations

-special teams gaffes

-use of timeouts

 

These things emerge when Jay has to multitask. Again, if Hue Jackson gets fired in Cleveland I would hope Jay just gives him a call about becoming his OC. These are fixables that will take him to another level as a coach. If he won't relinquish play calling duties, fine... he really needs the equivalent to a bench coach in baseball... someone to help him with the chess match and think a play or two ahead.

[skins island connection]

9 hours ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

This one statement in your post is pretty silly.

 

Considering the massive amounts of injuries the Redskins are dealing with, no game will be a "stroll in the park" for them. Not even a game against a bad 2-9 Giants team.

 

It won't be a "stroll in the park" next week against a reeling Elliot-less Cowboy team, either.

 

I believe Gruden deserves a lot more credit that he is getting for keeping a team together that could've easily fallen apart with injuries.

 

 Considering this same beat up Redskins went toe-to-toe with the Seahawks, Vikings and Saints, and was competitive in those games, even leading or winning some of those games, then to come home and lay an egg like this, then no, that is coaching.

 He does deserve credit for getting back-ups into position to play and be competitive, that's not so much an issue, but his play calling at times and his hesitation and other screw-ups in 2 minute warnings in numerous games is continuing to show its negative effect on outcomes of games, mostly in losses.

 

I could live with him staying as HC, but he HAS to get another OC and let the OC do his job without his interference; Gruden cannot be HC AND OC at the same time; its too much for him to handle.

The problem is, I'm wondering if he thinks its other problems that are not by his doings that is causing these screw-ups to happen, and he thinks he is doing a great job all around? Because he's not. This team is the absolute worst in the 2 minute ends of halves and finals of games. That is all on Gruden, no one else.

[skins island connection]

9 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Oh for sure.  It's 4th & 1....if you are going for it. GO FOR IT......there is no reason to run the punt team on, then run them off.

 

 I think Gruden was on auto-pilot, as usual, and didn't realize the time left, field position and importance of this game.

 So he lags in getting the punt team out there because the LOS is too far for a FG try and he knows he will punt, so a 5 yd delay of game penalty will not hurt, it would help, BUT all of a sudden realized the down and distance, the importance of winning this game, the success of the RBs in the 2nd half, and changed his mind.

Its another direct reflection of him being 'too involved' emotionally into the game to be able to make clear and quick decisions.

[SkinsGuy]

12 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Considering this same beat up Redskins went toe-to-toe with the Seahawks, Vikings and Saints, and was competitive in those games, even leading or winning some of those games, then to come home and lay an egg like this, then no, that is coaching.

 

How is it laying an egg? They won by 10. It wasn't a high-quality win to be sure, but considering that Cousins was, at times, throwing the ball to a RB (Byron Marshall) that wasn't on the team 10 days ago, laying an egg it wasn't.

 

14 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

I could live with him staying as HC, but he HAS to get another OC and let the OC do his job without his interference; Gruden cannot be HC AND OC at the same time; its too much for him to handle.

The problem is, I'm wondering if he thinks its other problems that are not by his doings that is causing these screw-ups to happen, and he thinks he is doing a great job all around? Because he's not. This team is the absolute worst in the 2 minute ends of halves and finals of games. That is all on Gruden, no one else.

 

Well, you will have to live with him as head coach, because what is the other option? 

 

Fire Gruden, blow up the team, and start all over again on offense. Who wants to do that? 

[skins island connection]

1 minute ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

How is it laying an egg? They won by 10. It wasn't a high-quality win to be sure, but considering that Cousins was, at times, throwing the ball to a RB (Byron Marshall) that wasn't on the team 10 days ago, laying an egg it wasn't.

 

 

Well, you will have to live with him as head coach, because what is the other option? 

 

Fire Gruden, blow up the team, and start all over again on offense. Who wants to do that? 

 

 Gruden is a good coach. But it stops at coach. He needs an OC [ they had a damn good one and let him go McVay ] and hand over the play calling to him.

 The team doesn't have to be blown up, only the egos running it.

[SkinsGuy]

2 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Gruden is a good coach. But it stops at coach. He needs an OC [ they had a damn good one and let him go McVay ] and hand over the play calling to him.

 The team doesn't have to be blown up, only the egos running it.

 

I'm not arguing the idea about getting an OC for Gruden. It will take some of the responsibilities off him so he can concentrate more on being just the HC.

 

I'm just arguing against the idea of replacing Gruden. For now. As long as the team plays gutsy, inspired football in the face of injuries, and as long as they seem to want to play for Gruden, I'll stand with him.

[OVCChairman]

11 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Gruden is a good coach. But it stops at coach. He needs an OC [ they had a damn good one and let him go McVay ] and hand over the play calling to him.

 The team doesn't have to be blown up, only the egos running it.

IMHO it's the other way.  Gruden is a damn good OC, but the HC is a little over his head.  That said he can adjust for it if he can get an OC that he'll hand it over to and focus on the other things, the biggest being clock management.  The best HCs are the ones that get the right guys in the right positions and let them do their thing.  Also Gruden needs to be aware of what is going on with his team.  That debacle on 4th and 1 was apparently because one of the players in that unit was getting their ankle wrapped.  Someone needs to communicate that to him or to the team.  We called a TO with the very obvious intention of changing from Punt team to offense, at that point the personnel needs to be aware and if something is off, it needs to be adjusted.  That was inexcusable.  The only thing I can think of is that Gruden was so focused on the offensive play, and the defensive alignment that he wasn't paying attention to what was going on, and by the time they chased down the sub it was too late.  That was bad.  

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

10 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Question: when the 'Skins called a timeout on the 4th & 1.....did the playclock completely reset or at least not start running until it was supposed to?  It seemed like coming out of a timeout, it was down to under :10 way too quickly. 

You don't get the full 40 second play clock after a timeout. It starts at :25.

[Burgold]

It's crazy how after four years I still don't know what to make of Gruden.  Is he the magician who's taking no running backs, wide receivers, and a back up o line and making them not only competitive, but good? Is he the guy who can't figure out the basics of game management? Is he the guy who players will run through a brick wall for or come out super flat for, lose their focus and sleepwalk through games?

 

The tale of 2017 is going to be one of injuries and that makes it so hard to judge Gruden or the front office. I mean is the front office a bunch of bozos who blew the Cousins signing for three years straight or the guys who managed to cobble together a third string o line and make it effective? Are they a bunch of idiots who let all our best weapons at wide receiver go and replaced them with duds (Quick and Pryor) who can't even step on the field or are they the team that found unheralded gems like Harris and Grant or seem to have made a good choice with Doctson. Is our front office a bunch of morons who can't find a running back or are we just using them wrong or underusing them.

 

I think the answer is Yes. Our HC and Front Office are filled with God-awful stupid geniuses who've been cursed by one of the worst injury plagues I've ever witnessed.

[dyst]

I guess we can give him a pass this year because of injuries. Can't wait till next year when it's some other reason.

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Gruden is a good coach. But it stops at coach. He needs an OC [ they had a damn good one and let him go McVay ] and hand over the play calling to him.

 The team doesn't have to be blown up, only the egos running it.

I find it interesting to watch all the love McVay is getting around right now

. He was taking lots of flak last year for often abandoning the run way too soon in most games.

Just like Kyle, we often praises those that left and hate those that are still here and often forget how we used to hates those that left.

 

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

IMHO it's the other way.  Gruden is a damn good OC, but the HC is a little over his head.  That said he can adjust for it if he can get an OC that he'll hand it over to and focus on the other things, the biggest being clock management.  The best HCs are the ones that get the right guys in the right positions and let them do their thing.  Also Gruden needs to be aware of what is going on with his team.  That debacle on 4th and 1 was apparently because one of the players in that unit was getting their ankle wrapped.  Someone needs to communicate that to him or to the team.  We called a TO with the very obvious intention of changing from Punt team to offense, at that point the personnel needs to be aware and if something is off, it needs to be adjusted.  That was inexcusable.  The only thing I can think of is that Gruden was so focused on the offensive play, and the defensive alignment that he wasn't paying attention to what was going on, and by the time they chased down the sub it was too late.  That was bad.  

Mind you, just like the Pete Robertson's gaffe, those are two of the easiest mistakes to correct.

Sure it looks crappy in game, but a good talk in the HC's office during 5 minutes for both guys will have this sorted out so it doesn't happen again.

 

3 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Considering this same beat up Redskins went toe-to-toe with the Seahawks, Vikings and Saints, and was competitive in those games, even leading or winning some of those games, then to come home and lay an egg like this, then no, that is coaching.

I think I have another theory regarding this.

After all, our O wasn't exactly great against the Seahawks. We looked like we laid an egg and got thankful our D hold on the whole game and that the Seahawks' K missed 3 FGs.

I'd like to think that our coaching staff, and Gruden specificly identified both the Seahawks and Giants as "bad team" (and both are, Seahawk have a crappy OL and not great O). So we rested a bunch of guys for these games knowing we can win them with back ups, and not playing pretty. Do you really want to risk a tough injury to Trent on your second game in 4 days? Or some more important players?

 

If not for our D falling asleep in NO in the last 5 minutes we would be 3-1 in those four games. We're 2-2 and managed to get through it while being competitive and not get too many injuries (besides Thompson, sadly...). You even gave Trent 10 days of rest until his next game against Dallas. Which, considering the situation is huge.

 

I see that as smart personnel management here from Gruden and the coaching staff. We went through one hell of a series, while still being able to rest a few guys nursing injuries, and give some subs some important playing time.

 

Heck, I'm pretty sure that was part of the gamepla:. It won't be pretty, we'll make mistakes, we warned Kirk that he'll get sacked because of a patch OL on the left side, but we'll be able to win it because that Giants' team isn't good at all.

[NoVaSkins21]

I know Gruden has a lot to deal with in terms of injuries, but his in game clock management is ATROCIOUS.  The delay of game after the timeout on 4th down was just STUPID.  It's not on Cousins because the HC has to know the situation and what to do there.  Again another reason why he needs a OC.  He CAN'T do both

[Wildbunny]

6 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

I know Gruden has a lot to deal with in terms of injuries, but his in game clock management is ATROCIOUS.  The delay of game after the timeout on 4th down was just STUPID.  It's not on Cousins because the HC has to know the situation and what to do there.  Again another reason why he needs a OC.  He CAN'T do both

I would believe that in this case, he's not the one at fault here, but more someone that didn't told him or didn't make sure he got the info.

Still, that'll be easily corrected today so it doesn't happen again.

 

That looks stupid on tv, but really no big deal.

[c slag]

If and thats if this team makes a run and gets into the playoffs with all the injuries wouldn't he have to be considered for coach of the year award