TPM: Orange Co. GOPer Says Obama-As-Chimp Pic Was Just A Joke Meant For Friends

[thebluefood]

How about those 19th Century caricatures of Irishmen? They were pretty much modeled after monkeys.

[Barney B]

Repeating the obvious:

For centuries, in this country, people of African descent were enslaved, brutalized, murdered and otherwise oppressed. One rationalization for this injustice was the belief that Africans were a sub-human race, more monkey than man.

This kind of abuse didn't happen to white people in this country. So white people who want to tell black people that they shouldn't be offended - even infuriated - by monkey imagery just don't have the standing to do it.

.

[No Excuses]

The historical basis behind why it's wrong to portray Africans as monkeys is just going beyond certain posters heads. Like The Chief said, a lot of racial brutality came out of the ideology depicted in these offensive pictures. If you don't understand this after 12 pages, you never will.

[Madison Redskin]

Y'know, whatever apples-to-oranges accusations you could have made in other threads, and in fairness, there have been some, we're comparing monkeys-to-monkeys here. Literally. Is ransom correct? Is the only difference the racial implications in Obama's case? Because if what he says in true, the opposite side of the argument in this thread is saying, "disrespect, dehumanization and personal offense are perfectly fine. Just don't be racially offensive."

Is that really how you want to operate in this country? Because I can tear the crap out of Obama without being racist. (Course, I'll be called a racist anyway, as PP essentially was in this thread.) But seriously. Is that where you want the political discourse to be? Or can we ALL do better?

Tear Obama apart for his policies. People do it all the time in the Tailgate and I have yet to see a an Obama supporter call one of his critics in the Tailgate a racist. As for PP, IMO he's bringing a lot of criticism on himself. I don't think he's a racist, but he's fighting to tooth and nail to hold every inch of ground for Team GOP.

[Teller]

The historical basis behind why it's wrong to portray Africans as monkeys is just going beyond certain posters heads. Like The Chief said, a lot of racial brutality came out of the ideology depicted in these offensive pictures. If you don't understand this after 12 pages, you never will.

So hearing no opinion to the contrary, degradation, dehumanization, and personal insult are cool. Racism is not.

I just want to be sure I'm clear. Election time will be here again before we know it.

[No Excuses]

So hearing no opinion to the contrary, degradation, dehumanization, and personal insult are cool. Racism is not.

I just want to be sure I'm clear. Election time will be here again before we know it.

Who is saying that it's ok to do it for other races? Of course it is degrading for any human on this planet to be depicted and mocked as a monkey.

But when it's done to an African, it takes on a whole new meaning. A lot of ugly, brutal history tied up to the ideology behind it.

[Teller]

Tear Obama apart for his policies. People do it all the time in the Tailgate and I have yet to see a an Obama supporter call one of his critics in the Tailgate a racist. As for PP, IMO he's bringing a lot of criticism on himself. I don't think he's a racist, but he's fighting to tooth and nail to hold every inch of ground for Team GOP.

The only thing he's done is be consistent. (Course, I of all people know where that gets you on matters of race.)

It's as simple as a kindergarten class. You don't want poked, Timmy? Don't poke Billy. You don't want your guy shown as a monkey. Don't show my guy as a monkey.

[PokerPacker]

How about those 19th Century caricatures of Irishmen? They were pretty much modeled after monkeys.

funny story, I'm of Irish descent and my last name is that of a monkey specie (well, technically an ape, but so is a chimp).

Also, ironic that post #131 showing old caricatures of people as monkeys, two out of the three are depicting the Irish as monkeys.

[Teller]

funny story, I'm of Irish descent and my last name is that of a monkey specie (well, technically an ape, but so is a chimp).

Also, ironic that post #131 showing old caricatures of people as monkeys, two out of the three are depicting the Irish as monkeys.

Well. Looks like you now have the right to speak! The floor is yours, sir!!

[Madison Redskin]

Obama is no ordinary man. He is a prominent man, and that opens one up to ridicule, including monkey comparisons. It is a universal insult, not restricted to just one race.

Well I certainly agree that Obama is a prominent man. However, what makes the monkey comparison relevant to Obama? You would be extremely hard-pressed to find a group of reasonable people who would argue that Obama is dumb (I believe that most of the Bush-monkey illustrations and pictures are meant to allude to Bush's perceived stupidity). Well, if you believe the author of the e-mail, the picture is supposed to be funny because of the "uncertainty surrounding Obama's background." Do you actually believe that laughably ridiculous explanation?

[DjTj]

funny story, I'm of Irish descent and my last name is that of a monkey specie (well, technically an ape, but so is a chimp).

Also, ironic that post #131 showing old caricatures of people as monkeys, two out of the three are depicting the Irish as monkeys.

Congratulations, the Irish got over it. A hundred years ago, the Irish were treated like a minority. Fifty years ago, we elected the first Irish Catholic President. There were bigoted overtones in that election, and JFK did not just "get over it," he gave this speech:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkhoustonministers.html

Today, the Irish are undeniably "white," and part of the American majority. The process of "getting over it" was long and hard, and it involved confronting some difficult issues head on. Are you willing to give black people in America some time to complete the same journey?

[Madison Redskin]

The only thing he's done is be consistent. (Course, I of all people know where that gets you on matters of race.)

It's as simple as a kindergarten class. You don't want poked, Timmy? Don't poke Billy. You don't want your guy shown as a monkey. Don't show my guy as a monkey.

As I said earlier, "generic attacks" on political opponents (e.g., politician X is a dumb ****) aren't particularly offensive, even if they don't add to the political discourse. That's not to say that all attacks on political opponents are fair game. I think most reasonable people can use their discretion to differentiate between garden variety political mud-hurling, and below-the-belt **** slinging.

[PokerPacker]

Well I certainly agree that Obama is a prominent man. However, what makes the monkey comparison relevant to Obama? You would be extremely hard-pressed to find a group of reasonable people who would argue that Obama is dumb (I believe that most of the Bush-monkey illustrations and pictures are meant to allude to Bush's perceived stupidity). Well, if you believe the author of the e-mail, the picture is supposed to be funny because of the "uncertainty surrounding Obama's background." Do you actually believe that laughably ridiculous explanation?

Honestly, I didn't find the picture funny; it didn't offend me, either. And it was very stupid of a political figure to get caught passing along something like that. As for what makes him monkey-like, I don't really see it.

As for the explanation, sounds like she's making a point to apologize about getting caught rather than having done it in the first place. And to be fair, who doesn't make inappropriate jokes in private company? Surely not all your private jokes are family-friendly.

And as for the accusation of me fighting for the Republican Party tooth and nail, I've spent quite a bit of time on here deriding both major parties and am a major proponent of ditching the 2-party system. I'm not a fan of the party system in general and I'd prefer people vote for their own beliefs rather than take an our-side versus their-side approach to politics. And as for what the Republican Party stands for, for the most party they've been quite authoritarian as of late which is the polar opposite of my political beliefs.

[Stadium-Armory]

Depicting a black person as a monkey is in bad taste, shows poor judgement and calls her character in to question. I'll stop short of calling her a racist since I don't know her, but she fails as a leader of her party.

[visionary]

Well, if you believe the author of the e-mail, the picture is supposed to be funny because of the "uncertainty surrounding Obama's background." Do you actually believe that laughably ridiculous explanation?

I do think she really did intend it to be a joke on his birth, since he is depicted as the baby in the picture.

I think it would be a lot worse and much more racist-looking if his whole family was depicted as monkeys.

Not that the picture isn't racially insensitive which it's hard to believe she didn't know.

If she really wanted to make a silly joke about his birth controversy, she might have been better off with a jungle book Mowgli photoshop.

Although I doubt a lot of people would get the connection, including her.

[Spartacus87]

Obama is no ordinary man. He is a prominent man, and that opens one up to ridicule, including monkey comparisons. It is a universal insult, not restricted to just one race.

Still swinging and missing after 13 pages.

Like someone earlier said- this is a really strange hill to choose to die on.

The only thing he's done is be consistent. (Course, I of all people know where that gets you on matters of race.)

It's as simple as a kindergarten class. You don't want poked, Timmy? Don't poke Billy. You don't want your guy shown as a monkey. Don't show my guy as a monkey.

And of course, it couldn't be a thread discussing a political/racial issue without Honorary Hog somehow finding a way to insert himself as a sort of victim somewhere in the debate.

[mel25]

Mr. Packer and Mr. Hog,

First off, let me say that I respect you both for stating those opinions and standing by them. I don't like when people make a statement, and then go back on it when they realize it isn't popular, even if I don't agree with it. Also, let me say that I only read the first page or two, so forgive me if you're covered this. I don't think you guys are racist. I'm even open minded enough to the possibility that the person that sent that email isn't racist. But people use monkey insults for at least one of 3 reasons: to say someone is ugly; to say they are dumb; and in the case of black people, to say we are all monkeys. Now I'm not saying it's ok to call Bush a monkey, but you're probably calling him ugly or dumb. If so, the insult is directed at him and him only. Now if you call Obama a monkey, it's possible you're calling him ugly or dumb, and it's reasonable to think that you're saying it because he is black. If that's the case, you've insulted an entire race.

I think if they would have chosen any other animal it would have been fine. She could've use a snake picture to call him sneaky or something, no racial connotation there. But a monkey at least raises the suspicion. I guess my question is, do you really not see the difference here? I don't think its the word or animal as much as it is the ambiguity. Once again, forgive me if you've addressed this already.

[RansomthePasserby]

Do you know why this thread is still active? Because a fair number of people appear to be defending the author of the e-mail and are denying charges that the picture in the e-mail is racially charged. Apparently, at least some people are buying her laughably ridiculous assertion that she thought it was funny to compare Obama to a monkey because of the uncertainty as to where he was born. Seriously, who is going to tell me they buy that bull **** excuse?

Maybe she thought the picture was funny, maybe she's a racist. Don't really know, don't really care. There's racist people in the world, just like there's Cowboys fans. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and think "what an idiot."

You know, I don't really see that many people defending her so much as pointing out that it was ok to call one person an ape, while it's not ok to call another person the same exact thing.

Think about the first time a black person was called a monkey. The reason why it was wrong was NOT because they were black. The reason why it was wrong is because dehumanizing ANY person or group of people is wrong in and of itself. It's JUST as wrong to call a white person a monkey as it is a black person, the only difference is the history behind it.

Think about it. Would the holocaust be ok if Asians were being persecuted? Would slavery be ok if Arabs were slaves? Would calling someone an ape be ok if we're doing it to a white man?

Y'know, whatever apples-to-oranges accusations you could have made in other threads, and in fairness, there have been some, we're comparing monkeys-to-monkeys here. Literally. Is ransom correct? Is the only difference the racial implications in Obama's case? Because if what he says in true, the opposite side of the argument in this thread is saying, "disrespect, dehumanization and personal offense are perfectly fine. Just don't be racially offensive."

Exactly. It was wrong when they called Bush a chimp, it was wrong for that woman to call Obama a monkey.

Pretty cut and dry.

[PokerPacker]

Mr. Packer and Mr. Hog,

First off, let me say that I respect you both for stating those opinions and standing by them. I don't like when people make a statement, and then go back on it when they realize it isn't popular, even if I don't agree with it. Also, let me say that I only read the first page or two, so forgive me if you're covered this. I don't think you guys are racist. I'm even open minded enough to the possibility that the person that sent that email isn't racist. But people use monkey insults for at least one of 3 reasons: to say someone is ugly; to say they are dumb; and in the case of black people, to say we are all monkeys. Now I'm not saying it's ok to call Bush a monkey, but you're probably calling him ugly or dumb. If so, the insult is directed at him and him only. Now if you call Obama a monkey, it's possible you're calling him ugly or dumb, and it's reasonable to think that you're saying it because he is black. If that's the case, you've insulted an entire race.

I think if they would have chosen any other animal it would have been fine. She could've use a snake picture to call him sneaky or something, no racial connotation there. But a monkey at least raises the suspicion. I guess my question is, do you really not see the difference here? I don't think its the word or animal as much as it is the ambiguity. Once again, forgive me if you've addressed this already.

I appreciate you post. Personally, I do think intent is what really matters. In many cases like this (I do believe this is not the first time we had a thread on here about Obama being compared to a monkey) I think people jump to conclusions of it being racially driven. I won't deny the possibility of it, but I really dislike that that is the conclusion everyone jumps to. He's not the first person in his position to be compared to a monkey, but many people take offense to it only with him because he is black. Were it something more overtly racist and had no ambiguity to it, then I'd agree with the majority of the posters in here.

I'm not going to say I can't see where a difference could be construed here. I know exactly what most people's problem is with it. I personally feel we could do better as a people if we were to be less sensitive and we could have open and honest talks about race. I think that time is approaching in the not so distant future as our generation and those that come after ours come to power.

[Burgold]

I do think she really did intend it to be a joke on his birth, since he is depicted as the baby in the picture.

I think it would be a lot worse and much more racist-looking if his whole family was depicted as monkeys.

Actually, if you are correct and the pic was a joke tying his birth to Africa, then it's without question racist humor in my mind because if depicting Obama as a monkey is a shorthand for Africa you are suggesting that all blacks are what???

As to the side argument in this thread, yes, it would be nice if we all treated people with respect and none were insulted, but not all insults are equal. Some sting more. Some are more personal. Some impact the group and not the individual. We know this. There's no one reading this thread who doesn't know that not all jokes are equal or have the same impact. There's a reason Biden got negative attention for asking a paraplegic to stand up and show his support. If he had said that to a person without a disability no one would have blinked. More, it really isn't up to you to decide what offends me. You don't get that right. Now, you do have the right to be offensive and say what you please, but don't pretend that all words are weightless, powerless, and don't contain subtext or historical power.

[visionary]

Actually, if you are correct and the pic was a joke tying his birth to Africa, then it's without question racist humor in my mind because if depicting Obama as a monkey is a shorthand for Africa you are suggesting that all blacks are what???

.

Hnm. That's possible. Was she specifically targeting his African heritage? That's a good guess to make. On the other hand, she or/and whoever made the picture (I don't recall if she made it herself) might have been playing off of the sillyness and absurdity of the whole birth situation and thought it would be funny to tie his birth in with the theory evolution.

But...I suppose the dumb racist versions are probably more likely.

[Major Harris]

Someone makes a joke about W eating fried chicken and watermelon.

Someone makes a joke about Obama eating fried chicken and watermelon. .

i've never understood this one at all. i've yet to meet any person, period, who doesn't love fried chicken and watermelon. it's like this is stereotyping black people as pretty damn normal to me. lol

[mardi gras skin]

Mr. Packer and Mr. Hog,

First off, let me say that I respect you both for stating those opinions and standing by them. I don't like when people make a statement, and then go back on it when they realize it isn't popular, even if I don't agree with it. Also, let me say that I only read the first page or two, so forgive me if you're covered this. I don't think you guys are racist. I'm even open minded enough to the possibility that the person that sent that email isn't racist. But people use monkey insults for at least one of 3 reasons: to say someone is ugly; to say they are dumb; and in the case of black people, to say we are all monkeys. Now I'm not saying it's ok to call Bush a monkey, but you're probably calling him ugly or dumb. If so, the insult is directed at him and him only. Now if you call Obama a monkey, it's possible you're calling him ugly or dumb, and it's reasonable to think that you're saying it because he is black. If that's the case, you've insulted an entire race.

I think if they would have chosen any other animal it would have been fine. She could've use a snake picture to call him sneaky or something, no racial connotation there. But a monkey at least raises the suspicion. I guess my question is, do you really not see the difference here? I don't think its the word or animal as much as it is the ambiguity. Once again, forgive me if you've addressed this already.

This is an excellent post, thanks mel. I agree completely.

The two picture below obviously aren't racist because they are direct comparisoins of expressions so its best to assume the attack is on the individual rather than race:

Both are disrespectful and both irritate me, but they are disrespectful to the individual and I guess our society is ok with that.

But in the original photo, I don't see a physical or intellectual comparison being made to President Obama so its logical to assume it is intended to insult an entire race. This isn't ok in our society.

And maybe more offensive to American sensibilities than its racist overtones, it wasn't funny either.

[Larry]

So hearing no opinion to the contrary, degradation, dehumanization, and personal insult are cool. Racism is not.

I just want to be sure I'm clear. Election time will be here again before we know it.

Not one person in this thread has said that "degradation, dehumanization, and personal insult are cool".

(Well, except for you, trying to make things up for other people to say.)

However, several people in here have tried, repeatedly, to claim that comparing a white man with a monkey and comparing a black man with a monkey are equal. And others are pointing out that they are not. And providing reasons for why they are not.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You may see me as consistently wrong, but I'm consistent. If it's wrong for one side, it's wrong for the other. If it's OK for one side, it's OK for the other.

Do you understand that one action can be wrong for different reasons?

I remember the movie "Kids" which came out in the mid 90s. In it, every white kid was calling everyone of their white friends "My "n-word"." I thought that was odd, but it seemed to be a trend and may even be a trend. I would feel uncomfortable if I heard one white kid call another white kid that. I would be horrified if I heard a white kid call a black kid that.

---------- Post added April-19th-2011 at 08:08 AM ----------

Depicting a black person as a monkey is in bad taste, shows poor judgement and calls her character in to question. I'll stop short of calling her a racist since I don't know her, but she fails as a leader of her party.

Why are people afraid to call racists for what they are? I don't understand this.

---------- Post added April-19th-2011 at 08:10 AM ----------

Question: Why does Joe Frazier still carry a grudge against Muhammad Ali over the "Gorilla" comments? Frazier is not angry that Ali nearly killed him in the ring. He is not angry that Ali used their friendship to borrow money from him and then turned around and attacked him in the press. Frazier is angry that Ali called him a gorilla.

Why?