TPM: Orange Co. GOPer Says Obama-As-Chimp Pic Was Just A Joke Meant For Friends

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Certain insults are more insulting to certain groups. I don't need to defend that behavior because it is reality.

What is more insulting?

"Look at that cheap ****?" or

"Look at that cheap Jew ****?"

I've added one three letter word to the second insult, but it just explodes off the page, doesn't it?

The Howard Cosell "monkey" comment is a good example. Howard himself in an unguarded moment would almost certainly have said that one should probably be careful when calling a black person a monkey. It carries a historical baggage that even the most skilled of orators would have trouble lifting.

[aREDSKIN]

I thought we weren't supposed to see color.

And I don't believe any of you if you say you didn't at least chuckle at the picture. You don't have to be racist to think it's funny.

Man just get over the self-righteousness. I believe that a majority here didn't think it was funny one bit. Your conjecture is just that absolute conjecture.

[Mooka]

However, no more wrong then these.

,,,

It's not different and I can say as I remember many on the left being upset about it. No more right then the President Obama image IMO. What say you?

Bush = stupid as a chimp

Obama = .... monkey? black? stupid as a chimp? :whoknows:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Question for the room: Is Amos n Andy funny?

Why or why not?

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's clearly insane.

You can make jokes about black people. You can make jokes about white people. Saying that Obama looks like Dumbo with those ears is fine. Saying that Obama golfs a lot is fine. Saying that he looks like a nerd when he plays basketball in sweat pants is fine.

Calling him a monkey is entering into a really sketchy territory.

I don't think the Dan Snyder-City Paper case has any merits. And' date=' frankly, I had forgotten that Dan Snyder was Jewish. But there is a history behind his argument that drawing horns on Jewish people is a traditional anti-Semitic thing to do. I don't think the artist was thinking of him as a Jew when he drew that picture, so I don't think the claim is worth arguing behind that. But - in retrospect - it was probably something that someone should have thought of.[/quote']

OK, so then lets examine this a bit more. Is it OK to post pictures like the first one with Bush and Cheney suggesting that they are gay? Is it OK to suggest that they are Nazi's? You see, it's not the specific imagery that is the problem here. It's the willingness to accept it in one case and denounce it in another, all the while, the insinuation is the same. If it's OK to subject one to this kind of behavior then it's OK to subject all and color has nothing at all to do with this. It is wrong to allow it for either. It's Hate Speech using these various depictions. I have my problems with President Obama and none of them revolve around the color of his skin. I just as well call him white as black because he is equal parts of each. I had my issues with President Bush as well but again, it had nothing to do with the color of his skin. I can not defend this kind of attitude. It's not right for either side to use race as a political tool and that's really whats going on here. It's a means to and end and the way to correct it is to refuse to accept it. At least, that is my opinion on the subject.

[aREDSKIN]

Question for the room: Is Amos and Andy funny?

Why or why not?

IMO most will not know who A&A are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_%27n%27_Andy

[ABQCOWBOY]

Question for the room: Is Amos n Andy funny?

Why or why not?

No. To those a generation or two before us, perhaps. To me it is not but I am the product of a different time. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I will be judged by those who come after me.

[Chicken Fried]

And' date=' yes, I would probably not let that happen.[/quote']

Holy cow, are you kidding me? You must be one of the most sensitive people on this board if black children imitating a monkey is inappropriate in your eyes. In all honesty, man, take a step back. Why would you even care if the black parents got upset over that? If they do, they have their own problems to deal with. They are children imitating animals. That's what kids do. They pretend they're either animals, cowboys, or dinosaurs.

Well, I guess now that I think about it, I suppose the act of playing make believe as an ape might psychologically scar the children for life by causing them to feel insecurity about their identity. We should probably prevent them from doing it after all.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Calling people Nazi's isn't acceptable. No one is as bad as Hitler, and both sides need to stop using that comparison.

Calling GWB gay is insensitive but (assuming he's not a closet homosexual) there isn't a history there. If GWB were gay, it would compare to this situation. While Obama is only half black, calling black people monkeys has a history.

If I call a white person an "N-word" they could very well be offended, but not necessarily overly so. If I did the same to a person who was black/mixed, they'd likely be furious. There is a long, long history of racism in this country and it's best to be somewhat cautious when using images that are historically linked with racism.

Is this woman racist? Who knows. Maybe she just thinks Obama looks like a monkey because of his big ears. Either way, its not bright to use Obama as a monkey images. Especially when you're a public figure and member the opposing party.

By the way, the concept of "not seeing color" is just bull****. No one "doesn't see color." Celebrate diversity, don't ignore it.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

QUOTE=ABQCOWBOY;8247497]OK, so then lets examine this a bit more. Is it OK to post pictures like the first one with Bush and Cheney suggesting that they are gay?

I said I didn't like that one. I don't think it's funny to call someone a "Fag." I think gay people would probably be the most insulted by that image to be honest, as its more a caricature of them than anyone else.

Is it OK to suggest that they are Nazi's?

Ralph Steadman did brilliant work illustrating Hunter S. Thompson's books and he used a lot of Nazi imagery. The cover of Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail has swastikas on it.

[

I think you need to be careful when using Nazi imagery as it is the equivalent of throwing a brick at someone with words. Sometimes, throwing a brick is important.

I never think the anti-Israel protests that use Nazi imagery are a good idea though. That's almost always a bridge too far.

It's the willingness to accept it in one case and denounce it in another, all the while, the insinuation is the same.

The goddamn insinuation is not the same. Comparing a black guy and a white guy to monkeys is not the same thing. One has centuries of racist iconography behind it. The other does not. You may have no memory of any event prior to yesterday, but stop asking me to live that way.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 04:08 PM ----------

Holy cow, are you kidding me? You must be one of the most sensitive people on this board if black children imitating a monkey is inappropriate in your eyes. In all honesty, man, take a step back. Why would you even care if the black parents got upset over that? If they do, they have their own problems to deal with. They are children imitating animals. That's what kids do. They pretend they're either animals, cowboys, or dinosaurs.

I don't think it's going to scar the children, but I don't think it's a great idea. Why even go down that path?

Remember when Bobby Knight was pictured using a bullwhip on Calbert Cheney? Why even open that can of worms? What is the point?

[DarrellsMyHero28]

I'm from Springfield, VA. Middle of the suburbs. Born in DC.

If someone came up to me and called me an inbred redneck hillbilly I'd laugh at them. Those words, while insulting, do not mean much to me considering where I'm from.

If I called someone like H_H that, he'd probably be pissed. Just like a lot of the WV members on this board who get upset when people talk **** about WV.

And WV residents don't have a long history of being enslaved, Jim Crow laws etc etc.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 05:11 PM ----------

I don't think it's going to scar the children' date=' but I don't think it's a great idea. Why even go down that path?[/quote']

Personally, I don't think your example of kids imitating monkeys is a good one. Children don't understand racism, or the complex issues of racial relations in this country.

Its actually a beautiful thing to see kids of all races playing together and realize that they have no idea that when their parents were kids that was unheard of in much of this country.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Personally, I don't think your example of kids imitating monkeys is a good one. Children don't understand racism, or the complex issues of racial relations in this country.

Its actually a beautiful thing to see kids of all races playing together and realize that they have no idea that when their parents were kids that was unheard of in much of this country.

The situation is a white coach and his team making a team filled with black kids make monkey noises - presumably while their black parents are watching. Do I think it would be necessary to call in counselors after this? No...my question is "Why even go down that path?"

Am I being overly sensitive? Maybe.

But I'd rather people say that I'm too sensitive to other people's feelings than say that I'm a big jerk.

Also, I think kids are far more aware of race than you give them credit for. I was eight years old when a classmate first explained the concept of "****** knocking" to me.

[Pick6]

The people who say that they are not racist, are truely racist when tested in a high stress environment. The ones who people think are racist, are truely not when put to the test.

Didn't anyone see the movie Crash? C'mon son!

[ABQCOWBOY]

I said I didn't like that one. I don't think it's funny to call someone a "Fag." I think gay people would probably be the most insulted by that image to be honest' date=' as its more a caricature of them than anyone else.

Ralph Steadman did brilliant work illustrating Hunter S. Thompson's books and he used a lot of Nazi imagery. The cover of Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail has swastikas on it.

I think you need to be careful when using Nazi imagery as it is the equivalent of throwing a brick at someone with words. Sometimes, throwing a brick is important.

I never think the anti-Israel protests that use Nazi imagery are a good idea though. That's almost always a bridge too far.

The goddamn insinuation is not the same. Comparing a black guy and a white guy to monkeys is not the same thing. One has centuries of racist iconography behind it. The other does not. You may have no memory of any event prior to yesterday, but stop asking me to live that way.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 04:08 PM ----------

I don't think it's going to scar the children, but I don't think it's a great idea. Why even go down that path?

Remember when Bobby Knight was pictured using a bullwhip on Calbert Cheney? Why even open that can of worms? What is the point?

You are speaking in degrees. The problem is that if you allow any measure of this to be OK, you can not put a halt to where it ends. That horse will have left the barn and you will not easily get it back in. In order to get beyond this sort of thing, you simply can not allow it to start. You can say that because President Obama is black, it's worse. You can say that it's better to depict GWB as a monkey because he is as stupid as a monkey but all you are really doing in allowing for the behavior to manifest itself against the next President. Because it was allowed with Bush and understand, I am not saying that GWB was the first one because he certainly was not, you allow this sort of behavior for all the rest. Well, now we have our first Black President. What do we do with all of these behavioral habbits that were OK for a President considered to be White? Now everything must be different? Is it the same for each? What's the answer? I do not spend every day on this forum but I have spent enough time on this forum to get a feel, so to speak, for posters. I do not believe you to be a person who is unable to grasp the point I am trying to make here. All of this is just another way of attacking a political figure or party. Make your case on the issues as oppose to the background noise. In our society as a whole, we don't need the double standard. If it's not right for one, then it's not right for all or vice versa. It's the only way it can work IMO. You can't have double standards or your short changing somebody. I suspect that the answer is for all of us to grow thicker skins and not worry the small stuff.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You can say that because President Obama is black, it's worse.

Yes, you can.

You can say that it's better to depict GWB as a monkey because he is as stupid as a monkey but all you are really doing in allowing for the behavior to manifest itself against the next President. Because it was allowed with Bush and understand, I am not saying that GWB was the first one because he certainly was not, you allow this sort of behavior for all the rest.

Why are you turning this into "protecting the dignity of the office?" That's not the issue. The issue is not the president is depicted as a monkey. The issue is that black man is depicted as a monkey.

Here is where I have to slow things down. This country has what you may call a "testy" racial history. We were among the last western nations to outlaw slavery and it took a bloody and brutal war to end that. Then we had about 100 years of Jim Crow law. During that time, black people were quote-unquote "Free" but certainly had less protections than white people. And during that time period, myriad images were created which emphasized the widely-accepted belief that a black person was inferior - morally, intellectually, genetically, etc. - to a white person.

Every black person carries this iconographic history with them. George W. Bush does not.

All of this is just another way of attacking a political figure or party. Make your case on the issues as oppose to the background noise. In our society as a whole, we don't need the double standard. If it's not right for one, then it's not right for all or vice versa. It's the only way it can work IMO. You can't have double standards or your short changing somebody. I suspect that the answer is for all of us to grow thicker skins and not worry the small stuff.

You really think this is just a political thing?

Really?

I mean...really?

Wait a second...really?

For the record, I think Clarence Thomas is a weak-minded justice who writes legal theories that are dangerous and antithetical to all this country stands for. The day he leaves The Court is a day I will open an expensive bottle of champagne. At the same time......wouldn't draw a picture of him looking like a monkey.

[Boss_Hogg]

the KKK used to show primate-like drawings and caricatures depicting black people.

Craig Bodeker, producer of the film "A Conversation About Race," also weighs in with a prominent endorsement. Bodeker, who persists in claiming he is no racist despite posting Internet comments describing black people as "EVIL monkeys," calls Bristow's book "the jolt Whites need to awaken from our suicidal slumber!"

read More

[No Excuses]

While Obama is only half black, calling black people monkeys has a history.

I think this concept is going over the head of quite a few people in this thread. I don't know if they are intentionally ignoring it or are flat out ignorant about it.

[Rudechain]

Then I guess you can label me a racist if you feel it necessary. You're free to judge me as you wish, but I'll still know that I'm not a racist and that's enough for me.

Where did I call you a racist????

I said it was a stupid joke by the OC official and what you posted is not any better.

If you can find where I said your a racist feel free.

But your remark was stupid and callous.

[Bang]

this argument.

This isn't rocket science.

~Bang

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm learning that there is no history of racial images in this country. That's a relief.

[Spec138]

Racial equality for all!

Except when we can ***** about something!

I guess the irony is lost on most that viewing a cartoon of Obama in a different light due to his skin is truly racist.

[bird_1972]

I think this concept is going over the head of quite a few people in this thread. I don't know if they are intentionally ignoring it or are flat out ignorant about it.

I would guess it's more the former than the latter given the history of some of the posters weighing in on that side of the arguement.

[Larry]

Irrelevant. What's more insulting, let me see? Making a joke about somebody who is black being akin to a monkey or somebody making a joke about a white person akin to a money? Somebody making a joke about a black person and a watermelon or somebody making a joke about a white person being gay or being a mass murderer?

Only one of those examples you threw out, is attacking the person's race.

:secret:It's the one you're trying to defend.

[Burgold]

Welcome to the club, racist.

Nah, even you are more self-aware and empathetic than that.

In my mind, the apology makes it even worse. Clearly, if it was ONLY intended for her friends and she goofed by broadly releasing it she knew EXACTLY what she was doing and saying.

And honestly, there are certain images, words, and symbols that we should be conscious of... then there's times when people should need to grow a thicker skin. This one is pretty bad given its historical context.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yes' date=' you can.[/quote']

Then you enjoy your time spent. As for me, I will not be part of it.

Why are you turning this into "protecting the dignity of the office?" That's not the issue. The issue is not the president is depicted as a monkey. The issue is that black man is depicted as a monkey.

Here is where I have to slow things down. This country has what you may call a "testy" racial history. We were among the last western nations to outlaw slavery and it took a bloody and brutal war to end that. Then we had about 100 years of Jim Crow law. During that time, black people were quote-unquote "Free" but certainly had less protections than white people. And during that time period, myriad images were created which emphasized the widely-accepted belief that a black person was inferior - morally, intellectually, genetically, etc. - to a white person.

Every black person carries this iconographic history with them. George W. Bush does not.

I am not turning it into anything. It is what it is. It does serve a political purpose. That's exactly what it's being used for in each case. As for your black man being depicted as a monkey, well, it's not right but it's not because he's black. It's not right because it is designed to offend or hurt a person, black or white. That's why it's not right. To call President Bush a monkey because he is "stupid" is also not right. What, is the person who is black and being represnted as a monkey somehow not being called stupid? Black or white, they are both being represented as sub-human. It's not right no matter how you try and slant the argument. If you allow it, then you can't complain when it's hitting an issue a little more close to home.

You really think this is just a political thing?

Really?

I mean...really?

Wait a second...really?

For the record, I think Clarence Thomas is a weak-minded justice who writes legal theories that are dangerous and antithetical to all this country stands for. The day he leaves The Court is a day I will open an expensive bottle of champagne. At the same time......wouldn't draw a picture of him looking like a monkey.

A person would have to be blind not to recognize the political ramifications of these images.

For the record, if you feel so strongly, then the best way to correct that kind of behavior is for you and everybody else to refuse to accept this kind of behavior across the board and not give it acceptance under the guise of this person is black and that is not OK but this person is white and so it's more OK.