TPM: Orange Co. GOPer Says Obama-As-Chimp Pic Was Just A Joke Meant For Friends

[ABQCOWBOY]

Here's another related question:

Is it more offensive to depict a black person holding a watermelon with an air bubble that says "yes massah!", or depicting a white person doing the same thing?

That's the difference here. Bush was depicted as a monkey because he had trouble with speeches and actually kind of looked like a monkey.

Obama is represented as a monkey here purely because he's black: which has deep racist connotations, just like my example above (which I apologize for, in the event that it offends anybody).

And for anybody who will argue, "well I actually do think Obama looks like a monkey with those ears", that's fine, you can believe that. But you need to be aware of the historical significance of that portrayal. That wasn't the case with Bush.

No. GWB does not look like a money any more then anybody else. As for his intelligence, can you honestly say that he was any dumber or any smarter then the current administration? The results do not appear to be much different. If there is an intelligence quotient that is at work here, the results thus far are not allowing for much seperation between the two at this point.

These are all justifications for why it's OK to be hateful to one and not the other. The idea should be equality, should it not? How can depicting one as a monkey be OK while the other not? There can be no equality in that statement.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I think I can sum up the thread as follows:

• People occasionally say dumb, offensive things and will exhibit their biases when the opportunity presents itself in "safe" places. This is nothing new.
  
• Sadly, this is especially commonplace over internet-based communications due in large part to people not having reasonable expectations of privacy.
  
• Marilyn Davenport displayed extraordinarily poor judgment in how she expressed her opinion of Obama, particularly given her status as a public official.
  
• If you're defending Davenport's poor judgment, you're an idiot.
  
• If you're putting the Obama and Bush monkey pictures on the same plane in absolute terms, you're trying too hard to be progressive.
  
• If you're calling Davenport a racist and don't know her personally, you're overreaching given the available evidence.
  
• If you have black in-laws, you are not automatically an expert on race relations.
  
• If you're h_h, you have an unusual affinity for Reed Doughty.
  

Am I missing anything?

What is the diet plan for dealing with an obese ego?

Self-deprecating humor.

[Burgold]

These are all justifications for why it's OK to be hateful to one and not the other. The idea should be equality, should it not? How can depicting one as a monkey be OK while the other not? There can be no equality in that statement.

The heart of this statement is correct. At the same time, it is dangerous and foolish to ignore the historical antecedents. More, other than arguing the ideal of it... do you really think this image was produced without intent?

[Conn]

No. GWB does not look like a money any more then anybody else. As for his intelligence, can you honestly say that he was any dumber or any smarter then the current administration? The results do not appear to be much different. If there is an intelligence quotient that is at work here, the results thus far are not allowing for much seperation between the two at this point.

These are all justifications for why it's OK to be hateful to one and not the other. The idea should be equality, should it not? How can depicting one as a monkey be OK while the other not? There can be no equality in that statement.

I did not say it was okay...I said that the reasons behind the "hate" were different.

I'm not talking about Bush actually being intelligent or not, or the results of his administration's work. I'm talking about his perceived intelligence, which is what takes a hit when you go watch some interviews/speeches from the guy. Its how he comes across.

And that's why he was ridiculed/drawn as a monkey.

Obama is drawn as a monkey here specifically because he is black. And if that's not the reason, it doesn't matter, because its well-known that that's how it will be perceived.

I still didn't say that one was "okay" and one wasn't. Its just that one has racist connotations and the other doesn't.

[Spec138]

And if that's not the reason, it doesn't matter,

How can we expect to move forward with a mindset like that? I know you're speaking in general about public reception but do you not see the fundamental error in this reasoning? In these gray areas where the line between equality and racism are sometimes so close it is MOST important that we act consistently and honestly.

[Corcaigh]

It makes you nostalgic for the good ol' days of racism in this country:

[Conn]

How can we expect to move forward with a mindset like that? I know you're speaking in general about public reception but do you not see the fundamental error in this reasoning? In these gray areas where the line between equality and racism are sometimes so close it is MOST important that we act consistently and honestly.

...The mindset is that even if not meant in a racist manner, one must respect the historical significance of certain things. That is the proper mindset, even if you don't like how I phrased it.

Instead of picking out that one sentence, why don't you address the whole post.

[PokerPacker]

yup, only black people were caricatured as monkeys back then.

[ABQCOWBOY]

The heart of this statement is correct. At the same time, it is dangerous and foolish to ignore the historical antecedents. More, other than arguing the ideal of it... do you really think this image was produced without intent?

I accept the historical significance of comparing a black man to monkey but having said that, do you not agree that if you allow this to any degree, you are opening the way for an escalating degree of this type of rhetoric? The answer is not to play the game at all.

You can't look the other way because it's a white guy being made out to be a monkey or a Nazi or Gay or whatever the generality is. It's not right and it has little to do with race as a larger issue. It has to do with the willingness of our country to accept the behavior in general. If you didn't stand up to say that this kind of thing was wrong wiht GWB, then it's going to be very difficult to say that it's wrong for President Obama.

Everybody knows that I'm conservative. I didn't like it when it was done to President Bush and I do not like it when it's done to President Obama. I don't like this sort of behavior in the general. Say what you want but I just see it as a way of allowing people to think it's OK to behave in this manner.

[Spec138]

...The mindset is that even if not meant in a racist manner, one must respect the historical significance of certain things. That is the proper mindset, even if you don't like how I phrased it.

Instead of picking out that one sentence, why don't you address the whole post.

Your post was a collection of assertions, i.e.: The image was obviously made due to race-based hate (Wonder why you think that, I could play your game and say it's because you think all white people are racist). The very conclusions you have jumped to in your post use the same logic that a racist would use to denounce others.

You seem to view things in very concrete, knowable terms (saying we must treat even non-racial statements as racial statements) which is the attitude some hold towards race that I hope to see defeated some day.

[Burgold]

Here's the thing. I would never embrace someone painting a swaztika on a synagogue. You may say that it's just a geometric shape and that it's time to let it go, but I believe that it's important to be vigilant towards hatred. Now, if you call me cheap or make fun of me in many other ways, I'll probably laugh. Jews make fun of themselves all the time. It's at the heart of our humor. What I'm saying is that there are lines and we should be aware and respectful of them especially when the intent is intended to be harmful. I don't know if her intent was to be racist, but it certainly was to insult, demean, and be destructive while using traditional racist humor that it's really, really, really unlikely that she didn't know was racially charged.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

I really just want this thread to die, before I waste anymore time in it. Please let it die! Please! It's a ****ing blackhole.

[Teller]

I see Sweet Sassy lurking. Joe, would you please speak up and vouch for the fact that I DO have a black friend?

(Or at least repost the HH Symbol and even things out?)

[Spartacus87]

I thought we weren't supposed to see color.

And I don't believe any of you if you say you didn't at least chuckle at the picture. You don't have to be racist to think it's funny.

The good old "I thought we weren't supposed to see color...you guys are the ones reading racial undertones in it" excuse.

Never really works, yet people still try it any way.

Bush = monkey :thumbsup:

Obama = monkey :cry:

You're a smarter guy than this post or thought process indicates.

I'm not surprised that someone pulled this out before the 1st page of the thread was over, but my money wouldn't have been on PokerPacker.

Either way, it's an ignorant response.

[thebluefood]

Okay, I didn't want to say anything, but it appears that it won't die so I'll just put my two cents in and let it go.

While I do agree that the only way we're going to reach total and complete racial equality, we have to be a little (a lot) less sensitive when it comes to race and acknowledge the fact that everyone's a little bit racist (insert Avenue Q photo here). At the same time, she REALLY should have known better.

[Spec138]

Okay, I didn't want to say anything, but it appears that it won't die so I'll just put my two cents in and let it go.

While I do agree that the only way we're going to reach total and complete racial equality, we have to be a little (a lot) less sensitive when it comes to race and acknowledge the fact that everyone's a little bit racist (insert Avenue Q photo here). At the same time, she REALLY should have known better.

For the record I agree she should have known better, or at least expected this reaction.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

I see Sweet Sassy lurking. Joe, would you please speak up and vouch for the fact that I DO have a black friend?

(Or at least repost the HH Symbol and even things out?)

I will leave the thread with this little nugget.

RovF1zsDoeM

While everyone's a little bit racist sometime, some people are just stupid all the time. H_H is not one of those people, which is why we get along.

[PokerPacker]

For the record I agree she should have known better, or at least expected this reaction.

same.

[Teller]

While everyone's a little bit racist sometime, some people are just stupid all the time. H_H is not one of those people, which is why we get along.

'Preciate you man. Seriously.

[fullnelson9999]

This is still a strawman. If you ask it next post I'll say the same thing. I fail to see how my personal views on certain images change the fact that this isn't the first time our President has been depicted as a monkey.

You may think you know what "strawman" means, but I don't think you really do.

[#98QBKiller]

For the record I agree she should have known better, or at least expected this reaction.

What kind of animal face is that photoshopped on Obama in your sig?

[GhostofSparta]

I understand the point that some are trying to make in defense of this picture, but I can't help but be reminded of a famous saying: this is the hill you want to die on? Showing Bush looking like a monkey is in poor taste, but that's a hell of a difference from basically saying Obama is a monkey. I would be more inclined to defend this if it were exactly the same thing as the "Bush makes faces like a chimp" montage posted earlier, just with Obama's expressions. Sure, it's gonna toe that racist line pretty hard if it doesn't cross it, but there's a precedence and people can laugh at it without looking bad for doing so. For the record, that Bush makes chimp faces collage was mildly funny the first time I saw it, but not after that. The Obama picture in the OP isn't funny. At all. It's just stupid and has no element of humor to it at all other than "I photoshopped Obama's head onto a monkey, LOL!"

Add to the fact that the premise of the "joke" is essentially Birtherism, and I really have to wonder why this person is allowed any type of power at all.

[GoSkins561]

My advice is generally pretty solid.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 03:41 PM ----------

The original title of Agatha's Christie's "And Then There Were None" was "Ten Little ******s" which was later changed to "Ten Little Indians."

Ten Little ******s was a perfectly cute little rhyme. We should bring it back.

If there are eleven kids playing "Monkey in the Middle" and one of them is black...and he happens to be the one in the middle...if I were a teacher' date=' I would keep my ears open.

And if I had an all white team that had just beaten a team with a lot of black kids, I would not make the black kids make monkey noises. It's probably fine, but why be an ******* if you don't have to be? Make them act like puppies or something.

The problem with these threads is everyone wants the right to act like an ******* with impunity.[/quote']

How in the hell do you explain to a 5 year old not to pick a monkey, I honestly hope our country isn't heading in this direction. Dude I know you consider yourself to be brilliant, but this is one of the dumbest things you have ever posted.

[Spec138]

You may think you know what "strawman" means, but I don't think you really do.

He was using a superficially similar, but completely different type of imagery to try to refute what I had said earlier.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 06:22 PM ----------

What kind of animal face is that photoshopped on Obama in your sig?

Red Panda

[PokerPacker]

bush hasn't just been placed next to a monkey to compare, he was made to be one.